Diablo® III

What MP level do you think I can handle?


That's pretty much my go to build that's completely viable for everything in MP5 and MP6 except the enrage bosses (it's viable for Butcher at MP5, and could probably take him in MP6 with some decent crit luck and good uptime). But it wasn't getting me close to downing Belial on MP5, so I switched to this:


Sadly, that made the fight extremely doable. I say sadly because I'm not a real fan of thunderclap, and I don't like pairing SSS and sweeping wind. But it was a huge single target dps upgrade and more than did the trick in downing Belial. I suspect I could take him on MP6 using it. Maybe even MP7 after 1.07 (since I don't currently snapshot in any way, the patch will be a nice SW upgrade for me).
Edited by overg#1771 on 2/9/2013 12:47 PM PST
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02/09/2013 06:41 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
You should download the spreadsheet :)

I "liked" your "spreadsheet is available" thread the instant I saw it, and think you've done an awesome thing making it available for everyone.

But I doubt I'll ever touch it. One of the things I really like about D3 is the ability to respec and simply try things out. I really enjoyed min/maxing when I played WoW and raided, but for this game I've always preferred to simply go about things through trial and error. It's not the most efficient way to play the game, but it's a fun one for me.
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I can buy you some huge upgrades on the cheap(matching resist types and more vit) so you survive longer and kite and die less.
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But I doubt I'll ever touch it. One of the things I really like about D3 is the ability to respec and simply try things out. I really enjoyed min/maxing when I played WoW and raided, but for this game I've always preferred to simply go about things through trial and error. It's not the most efficient way to play the game, but it's a fun one for me.

There's really a lot to be said for this. When I made my first wizard, I spent no time at all researching what would work, or putting things into d3up. I just played and tried things out. It's can be so much fun to try and find things on your own. I really missed the whole "Ooh, I went up a level! Let me try out these new skills!" My Monks are my outlet for minimaxing, however.

(Unfortunately, you can see how well all that worked out for my wizard here:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/Demiwraith-1534/hero/30293912 )

02/09/2013 02:18 PMPosted by Ace
I can buy you some huge upgrades on the cheap(matching resist types and more vit) so you survive longer and kite and die less.

Vrk, you may want to listen to Ace here. You could probably find some gear on the AH that would up your EHP to acceptable levels and make you able to handle MP-4 or maybe even MP-5 for less than 1m total.
Edited by Demiwraith#1534 on 2/9/2013 2:31 PM PST
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02/09/2013 02:18 PMPosted by Ace
I can buy you some huge upgrades on the cheap(matching resist types and more vit) so you survive longer and kite and die less.

I appreciate the offer, but I play self-found. I don't kite, if by "kite" you mean "run away a lot because you're getting your head handed to you." The only thing that makes me move out of combat is Frozen; everything else gets a quick DS to the head.

Right now, I'm playing MP5 for a break. I've fought solo packs 43 times since I went back to MP5, and I've died 3 times. One of those was when I accidentally pressed the Z button and zoomed in against Molten Electrified flyers. (Protip: Just press some other keys, like Serenity, if that's what you were planning to do! Don't worry about such trivialities as "I can't see myself because I'm now behind a wall of rocks in a cave.") So I'm dying once every 20 packs or so. Not that Act 2 is particularly hard. But I've been up against all kinds of combos, and I don't consider any of them too tough. Blazing Guardians and Magewraiths are the toughest mobs in Act 2, IMO, and I don't consider them reasonably lethal until MP6.
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Vrk, you may want to listen to Ace here. You could probably find some gear on the AH that would up your EHP to acceptable levels and make you able to handle MP-4 or maybe even MP-5 for less than 1m total.

You shameless troll, you :)
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Am I being leveled, trolled, or simply the recipient of some misplaced benevolence? I honestly can't tell what's happening here.

If you're looking for a challenge, it's pretty easy to pick up 3 or 4 elite packs right around the first waypoint of act 2. I highly recommend exploding palm for such situations . . . watching 6-10 elites simultaneously explode is quite a sight. Heck, it's even worth it one of them has reflect damage when it happens.
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Everything, looks good to me!
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I "liked" your "spreadsheet is available" thread the instant I saw it, and think you've done an awesome thing making it available for everyone.

But I doubt I'll ever touch it. One of the things I really like about D3 is the ability to respec and simply try things out. I really enjoyed min/maxing when I played WoW and raided, but for this game I've always preferred to simply go about things through trial and error. It's not the most efficient way to play the game, but it's a fun one for me.

I understand the value of trying out builds, but I don't see much value in guessing about whether your Blackthorne's might give you more EL or more EDPS. That's the value of it, I think. Partly. Not as easy to measure EDPS with your build, but the EL calculations should be useful.
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I think even EL is a rather tricky stat given my playstyle. I tend to use dashing strike a lot to position myself on the edge of packs, and of course to get out of the fire. And because I'm not face-tanking as much as most monks (at least from what I've seen from streams and youtubes), I think there's a larger difference between stat sheet EL and my actual surviveability than most [please note this isn't a brag . . . I suspect dashing around as much as I do is an overall efficiency loss. I just enjoy doing it]. Even with a spreadsheet, I'd need to test out how any equipment change actually worked in game to see if the stated EL increase actually translated into real world results.

Which is not to dismiss the value of what you've done. If I were more ambitious, patient, and smart, I could combine your spreadsheet with my real world testing to figure out which EL changes actually affect my gameplay. I suspect adding 60 AR (about 10% of what I have) would make a noticeable difference in my elite kill speed, but adding 4,200 life (once again, about 10% of my current) would not. And I'm sure I could figure that out for sure using your spreadsheet to see the EL difference between 60 AR and 4,200 life, and then seeing what, if any, efficiency bonus I actually get in game by taking advantage of that difference. It certainly seems possible to come up with a personal rule of thumb such as: 1 point EL from AR = 2 point ELfrom vitality for my personal playstyle by comparing what I'm seeing in game to the numbers from your spreadsheet.

But I'm not that ambitious, patient, or smart (well, it's possible I'm smart enough to do it, although I'm about 2 decades removed from using anything beyond very basic math). I'm okay with just trying things out in game and seeing how it goes, even though I certainly run the risk of some "false positives" where something feels better in game, but is actually slowing me down or getting me killed more often.

TLDR version: eh, I'm just lazy about such things when it comes to D3.
Edited by overg#1771 on 2/10/2013 5:28 AM PST
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As a fellow DS user, I understand that issue. I also agree that EL can be tricky. For example, I recently tested Time of Need in place of Hard Target for several runs. This changed my typical defensive sequence to more spamming and more use of Serenity, but it was making me use too much spirit against regular melee mobs and causing me to frequently end battles without capping my spirit. Ultimately, even though the paper sustain is better, the change in play and the reduced effectiveness against heavy-melee mobs (not just whites—think Magewraiths and anything else that hits hard) wasn't worth it.
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You get me.


I suspect playstyle plays a far greater role in "effective life" than most people imagine, and I also suspect it's why we're constantly seeing people posting about having trouble with MP5 or MP6 even though they're wearing better gear than the both of us put together. If your goal is to hold down TP while spamming overawe as much as possible without actually moving, you're going to need to gear up your defense and sustain a lot differently than I do. And sometimes small changes make a big difference.

For instance, I've posted this before, but I basically play two specs depending on my mood. My main is . . .


My secondary spec is this:


I'm going to guess that those two specs don't paperdoll a big difference in EL. The first has more frequent immunities between Beacon of Ytar and SSS, but other than that they're pretty much the same. And yet there is a significant difference in my survivability, and I die quite a bit more using the second spec. My playstyle accounts for most of the difference.
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My first serious change in spec is something I mapped out while playing with my spreadsheet in 1.0.6:

Out: Faith in the Light, Beacon of Ytar
In: Foresight, Combination Strike

Because of the change to Cyclone, this works out better for me in 1.0.7 than it would have in 1.0.6. Essentially, my 1.0.6 EDPS was just north of 200K, which is 196K or so on 1.0.6 with my new MS boots. (I gave up about 2% EDPS and 5% EL for the 12% MS. Totally worth it.) My 1.0.6 EDPS with Foresight and Combination Strike was 208K, which became 230K on 1.0.6, which is now 227K because of the boots.

I strolled around the Fields of Slaughter for a bit in solo play before joining a full party for the rest of the evening. I fought five elite packs solo and killed them all without incident. The extra DPS is very, very noticeable, and I haven't had to fiddle with my style much at all. I'm losing the blind, but that just means I DS to another part of the action a little more if things get really crazy. I also lost a little bit of sustain and invulnerability, but it's nothing that seems unmanageable.

In 1.0.6 news, I managed to beat the following elites at the same time:

1. Elite Heralds of Pestilence with Arcane, Molten, Fast, and Frozen (elite only)
2. Blood Clan Maulers with Illusionist, Froezen, Electrified, and Knockback

There were ice bombs all over the field! I died immediately when both first showed up, but I thought, "What the heck, I'll give this a shot." Worked out pretty well! Would have been my Crowning Moment of Awesome if I hadn't died right away when they first showed up :-\

Anyway, I'm going to give MP5 another stroll tomorrow night, and I think I'll try MP6 after that. It feels like it'll be a lot easier than it was just a few weeks ago. Probably a little tougher than MP5 was last week on 1.0.7, when I was dying once every 25 fights or so.
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Took on MP6 Act 3 today. Fought it from the start of the act all the way through Siegebreaker. (Actually, I started with The Breached Keep and went to Siegebreaker, after which I decided to do the first two quests. Same thing.) I used my Foresight/Combination Strike pairing, which worked very much like I expected. Overall, I fought 35 packs, and I died 5 times:

  • Elite Blood Clan Maulers/Warriors with Plagued, Horde, Knockback, and Frozen, plus three stray Heralds of Pestilence and a Demonic Tremor: This wasn't a battle I minded dying in. It was a good, tough fight, and I refused to run off. The Heralds made me move around just a bit too much, and I could never get them all to a point where one of them wasn't wiggling an arm at me from a distance.
  • Stingers with Plagued, Fast, Electrified, and Vortex: I started slamming on these guys, and then all four of them dropped a plague pool, which sent my health plummeting. I moved away, only to learn that they also had Vortex, which I hadn't really noticed. No problem—I'll activate Serenity! I thought that worked when I managed to make it across the plague pools and toward the door. Then I looked down at my toolbar and saw that Serenity wasn't on cool-down. And that's when I died. As far as I can tell, I got hit by a stray shock. I think Serenity failed to go off because I hit it as soon as I got vortexed, and the "slammed" reaction you get upon landing prevents you from activating skills. Still not sure how I made it across the pool without Ascension active.
  • Elite Heralds of Pestilence with Frozen, Arcane Enchanted, Shielding, and Desecrator, plus two regular HoPs, plus a Hellflyer: This fight was nuts. Because of the arcane sentries and the ice bombs, I couldn't get the Heralds close enough to stop wiggling at me. The stray white mobs didn't help, either.
  • Another death to the same pack: My cleanup effort didn't quite go as planned!
  • Elite Wintersbane Stalkers (the slashy dudes) with Frozen, Shielding, Plagued, and Knockback: This fight was a bit of an aberration, as I died nearly instantly. I think I got knocked back into a wall and set upon as I was trying to go back up the narrow hallway so I'd have room to maneuver around the ice bombs. Essentially, this fight was a non-starter, after which I won the full fight easily enough, given the affixes.

I feel like my rate ought to be somewhere around one death in every ten fights, but it's hard to say. There aren't a lot of easy fights, but only the Plagued fights are really hard. And Heralds are tough, of course. The Stingers death was kind of cheap (I'm still orienting myself to the new Plagued, which is OTT, IMO), and the Stalker death was just weird, so I don't think 1-to-10 is entirely unreasonable, given a sufficiently large sample size.

Anyway, this run through Act 3 will also serve as my comparison for a Mystic Ally run or two. I'll likely run the rest of Act 3 tomorrow afternoon with this build.
Edited by Vrkhyz#1472 on 2/15/2013 8:22 PM PST
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So I just finished a full clear of Act 3 on MP6. Last night, I downed 35 packs and died 5 times; today, I downed 21 packs and died 3 times. So the final tally is 56 packs and 8 deaths, or 1 for every 7. (I died twice against the same pack in last night's run, so maybe "1 or more deaths every 9 packs" is a better description.)

The best fight of the bunch was against Blood Clan Impalers with Horde, Nightmarish, Plagued, and Frozen. (I won without dying.) If Plagued isn't the toughest affix in the game right now, it's right near the top.

My three deaths:

  • Elite Succubi with Shielding, Molten, Mortar, and Arcane Enchanted (damn, those curses hurt)
  • Elite Heralds of Pestilence with Shielding, Molten, Vortex, and Desecrator
  • Occultists with Nightmarish, Plagued, Teleporter, and Desecrator (this fight was under control until I got roped by one of those turrets, and a lot of Stingers popped out of the ground—a couple bad hits later, I went from full to dead)

I killed Cydaea and Azmodan without swapping for any demon-specific gear. I've also killed Iskatu and an elite pack in Act 4 and plan to run through Rakanoth before heading out for dinner.

As part of this afternoon's run, I decided to track how often I'm using Ascension. Here's the breakdown:

  • Overall, I used it in 10 of the 22 champ fights. (I didn't need it against Cydaea or Azmodan but did need it against Iskatu.)
  • In 3 of those 10 fights, I needed it for something other than the pack itself.
    • In one fight, I got stuck on something and couldn't move; there's a very small chance this was Nightmarish, but I wasn't running, and I didn't see an icon. Eventually, Serenity allowed me to retake control of my character.
    • In another fight, I needed it because of all the curses being tossed by non-pack Succubi. Once they were dead, I completed the fight without using it.
    • In the other fight, I needed it to handle a bunch of Impalers that showed up during the fight against some other elite Impalers. Once they were down, I finished the rest of that fight (not the Plagued Imaplers fight I mentioned earlier) without using it.
  • My 3 deaths occurred in the 10 fights in which I used Serenity—specifically, in the 7 fights in which I needed Serenity for the pack, not some other factor.

Overall, then, I seem to be using Serenity in 30% to 45% of the fights, and I die in 30% to 45% of those fights anyway. Makes me think I should try dropping Serenity, not Foresight, for a Mystic Ally run. I'm leaning toward Earth Ally or Eternal Ally at the moment. The Earth Ally would instantly remove one champ from every pack, but the Eternal Ally's new damage boost is pretty good. I could literally activate that skill once at the start of the run and never activate it again unless I wanted to distract a nearby mob.

The fact that I had to use Ascension to combat non-champs in 2 of the 10 fights makes me think that Serenity is much more useful in a high-density area like Act 3 and less useful in a low-density area with slow mobs, like much of Act 1.

Anyway, back to Act 4!
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Just finished the rest of Act 4. I fought 10 elite packs, used Ascension 4 times in those fights, and died in 2 of them anyway. Overall, I died 3 times: once against elite Oppressors with Shielding, Molten, Arcane, and Plagued, and twice against elite Morlu Legionnaires with Desecrator, Electrified, Vortex, and something else I didn't notice. Both times, I got hammered by something other than the elites: two Oppressors, a Corrupted Angel, and two Armaddons in the first fight, and several Terror Demons in the second.

I also died twice as often against non-elites as I did against elite packs!

* A horde of Armaddons (twice)
* The Keywarden
* An elite Mallet Lord near an occulus (note to self, don't debate using Serenity mid-swing)
* Subjugator (with help from Morlus, a Mallet Lord, and Abaddons)
* Another Mallet Lord (note to self, their reach apparently extends down a flight of stairs)

It's like I and others have said before: everything in Act 4 is practically an elite pack!

Anyway, regarding Serenity, that's 31 elites fights across Act 3 and Act 4, 13 fights in which I used Serenity, and 5 in which I died anyway. If I'm only using it without dying 25% of the time, maybe it's time to look at something else.
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MP4 Ubers are down. One shot the SK and Ghom fights. Siegebreaker took about 5 attempts. I really, really, really hate Kulle. Between his time bubbles, gazillion tornadoes, and teleporting away as soon as you touch him . . . grrr. And then, the ($%& had the gall not to drop the only ring piece I still need. Little *()&-=!!!.



3$@%$ a banana #$#^%

Still, nice to progress another MP uber level. I think MP5 is doable too, at least for SK and Ghom. Although both bosses in the SK fight are starting to put out some serious, serious damage. I'm not very far away from the point where they'll be one shotting me.

Oh yay! Armory is fixed, so everyone can stare at my new pretties. The gloves in particular seem pretty nice.
Edited by overg#1771 on 2/17/2013 8:45 AM PST
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I'm currently testing Eternal Ally in place of Serenity. I've gone from the start of Act 3 through Ghom on MP6, and I've died twice in 20 fights. And one of those fights was definitely a bug: I got stuck, couldn't move, couldn't DS, couldn't attack, and there was no Nightmarish critter nearby. Which is a shame, because I had the last two champs down to about three punches apiece, after which I just had to handle what was left of the elite.

Anyway, Mystic Ally seems to be doing alright. The new cap allows him to eat an entire Fallen Maniac to the face and still have 25% to 30% of his health remaining. Fire Ally would almost certainly be better than this for DPS, as he's about equal without accounting for spamming; Earth Ally might be better still overall, although his DPS contribution is roughly 70% of Eternal Ally's. But he comes with that huge +10% life, and he will continually take away one elite during combat. I can also resummon him to temporarily take off the heat.

Ideally, I'm almost at a spot where I should consider ditching OWE because my +cold isn't very high. If that happens, I'll likely switch it to NDE and leave my other skills intact (just to see how it goes) or switch to Pacifism and change Dashing Strike to Slipstream, which will let me escape Vortex and plague pools better.

My best fight without Serenity? A double pull against these:

  • Fallen Champs with Fire Chains, Mortar, Avenger, and Vortex
  • Fallen Mongrels with Waller, Jailer, Arcane Enchanted, and Molten

I prefer Slipstream to Dashing Strike when it comes to Vortex, but it may be a timing thing. But laying on the RMB when you see the vortex animation is pretty easy.
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This might all fall apart at the Fields of Slaughter, of course. I'll post an update tomorrow. Definitely glad I didn't pull Foresight off my bar for Mystic Ally, though.
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Just one shot Butcher on MP6, regular gear, regular spec. It was actually tighter than I thought it'd be.

Next up, Belial. I'm pretty sure I'll have to pull out the same spec I took him on MP5 with, but I think I'll get him.
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