Diablo® III

The Argument.. and why it doesn't fly

- D2 wasn't as good until LoD came out.
- D2 didn't have all the goodies when it came out, it took LoD for that
- Why should we expect D3 to have all it's goodies upon release if D2 didn't?

Let's flip the argument around and ask this question instead: Why did the D3 dev team literally go back 12 years and in essence, re-create D2 like it was released on day 1, with the exception of them removing PvP and the majority of the loot.

Yes D2 didn't have all it's goodies right away, but the fact of the matter is, all those little core goodies that made the diablo franchise great, were sitting there for them on a silver platter yelling "add me" "add me" "they love us".

So then you have to ask yourself this: Upon making D3, why did they remove the majority of the items, the runes, charms, jewels, rune words, horadric cube, an act, a class, the randomness, the PvP, the ladder, the social system, skill diversity, build diversity, the offline mode, chat rooms, 8 player max.

Why did they not just add these to D3, then start adding in all their creative ideas on top of it? There is absolutely no excuse as to why this dev team didn't add in all the core ingredients that were already part of the franchise.
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Well the only reason boiled down to a completely new team which never have not much history or understanding for the game they are handling.

On top with a ego-driven notion to rid of any traces of the previous success to implant his own footprints.

Trying to be put a game that heavily lead on cooperation to a heavily solo character game, is like putting car racing with basketball.

Hence it goes all the way back and worse.

Why bother to create something with the same game name when you are going to create a totally different game.

Might as well call it Angel Fall or something.

Personally, I do not think many people do realize that while Diablo II was not as what is it now, the core design gave it a lot of space to breathe and improve.

The system was deep enough to allow the continue of putting layers on tops. Hence Lord of Destruction was such a hit, even it did took patches to improve as what it is now.

The system was never as shallow as the current one.

It was changeable without having the need to throw the entire or major parts of the system out of the window.

Perhaps my mind is not quite a genius as the developers are. The current system is awfully shallow. They already did major changes to the game system itself, save for itemization, which personally, should be the first focus instead.
Edited by Dutchmilk#6229 on 12/7/2012 5:59 AM PST
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D2 people refer to is D2:LoD.....

With that said D3 should be everything learned over the years of D2:Lod and expanded on. Not a clean slate, realizing it was a bad decision, and then patches making it more like D2:Lod day to day.

I think that's a pretty simple winning argument if you ask me.
Edited by KainDraven#1803 on 12/7/2012 6:08 AM PST
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It's an unnecessary argument if you like D3. D3 is a better game than D2 was in any form. Your basic assumption is based on the opinions of only the people who agree with you.
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12/07/2012 06:16 AMPosted by Zymurgeist
It's an unnecessary argument if you like D3. D3 is a better game than D2 was in any form. Your basic assumption is based on the opinions of only the people who agree with you.


I tend to agree with you on principle, generally whatever garbage the forum spews is wrong.
However the only aspects which I believe Diablo 3 is superior is the actual combat and the fact that you don't have to re-roll an entire character to try a different spell.
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Godwin's Law invoked! Thread over. ;)
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So then you have to ask yourself this: Upon making D3, why did they remove the majority of the items, the runes, charms, jewels, rune words, horadric cube, an act, a class, the randomness, the PvP, the ladder, the social system, skill diversity, build diversity, the offline mode, chat rooms, 8 player max.

Why did they not just add these to D3, then start adding in all their creative ideas on top of it? There is absolutely no excuse as to why this dev team didn't add in all the core ingredients that were already part of the franchise.


First of all there is no feature in a game that is so important that it cannot be removed or the game will instantly crash and burn. You start off your post as talking about D2 not having all of the goodies that it had until LOD. But yet you would be wanting the devs to start from LOD in the comment that I quoted, fascinating.
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- D2 wasn't as good until LoD came out.
- D2 didn't have all the goodies when it came out, it took LoD for that
- Why should we expect D3 to have all it's goodies upon release if D2 didn't?

Let's flip the argument around and ask this question instead: Why did the D3 dev team literally go back 12 years and in essence, re-create D2 like it was released on day 1, with the exception of them removing PvP and the majority of the loot.

Yes D2 didn't have all it's goodies right away, but the fact of the matter is, all those little core goodies that made the diablo franchise great, were sitting there for them on a silver platter yelling "add me" "add me" "they love us".

So then you have to ask yourself this: Upon making D3, why did they remove the majority of the items, the runes, charms, jewels, rune words, horadric cube, an act, a class, the randomness, the PvP, the ladder, the social system, skill diversity, build diversity, the offline mode, chat rooms, 8 player max.

Why did they not just add these to D3, then start adding in all their creative ideas on top of it? There is absolutely no excuse as to why this dev team didn't add in all the core ingredients that were already part of the franchise.


Diablo2 expansion and skill synergies made the game great in my opinion. Where a low level skill gave you at least some bonus to later level skills.

Charms was a good idea, that got badly implemented. When I saw the talisman being planned, I thought it was brilliant solution for adventure stats like MF and GF without needlessly rendering your inventory space absolute.

Diablo2, without the expansion I got bored of quick.
Edited by Techies#1508 on 12/7/2012 7:21 AM PST
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Why did they not just add these to D3, then start adding in all their creative ideas on top of it?


Because a lot of the things you mention have deep flaws. So rather than putting in a bunch of fun but flawed things into the game and going from there, and designed it from the ground up, implementing only things that they could ensure would not hurt the game.

As an example, if they put in charms as they existed in D2, then people would feel compelled to use them but hate the lack of inventory space that results. That's a flaw inherent to the charm system.

So instead, they tried to get the basic things smooth and polished, and will (presumably) add various features that they design from the ground up without the inherent flaws of things like charms, runewords, or the horadric cube. The result is that the game lacks interesting features at the moment, and I think that's a meaningful criticism regardless of what this game looks like years down the road. But the reason why they didn't just add everything from D2 to start with is pretty obvious.
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- D2 wasn't as good until LoD came out.
- D2 didn't have all the goodies when it came out, it took LoD for that
- Why should we expect D3 to have all it's goodies upon release if D2 didn't?

So then you have to ask yourself this: Upon making D3, why did they remove the majority of the items, the runes, charms, jewels, rune words, horadric cube, an act, a class, the randomness, the PvP, the ladder, the social system, skill diversity, build diversity, the offline mode, chat rooms, 8 player max.


Runes/runewords were added on LoD
Act was added in LoD
2x new classes were added in LoD
Build diversity and skill diversity will start to appear when pvp comes out (unless u think barbs foe example will win anything by ww pvp)

However I think some more diablo 2 features could have been implemented and could have done good to d3
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First of all there is no feature in a game that is so important that it cannot be removed or the game will instantly crash and burn. You start off your post as talking about D2 not having all of the goodies that it had until LOD. But yet you would be wanting the devs to start from LOD in the comment that I quoted, fascinating.


I don't really understand your argument. You're saying that D3 shouldn't have LoD as a starting point because D2 didn't start from LoD? So because the devs improved on D2 with LoD the new devs shouldn't improve upon LoD with D3?

That being said, I completely agree with your post, OP. What I find particularly interesting about the argument is how some people make D2 sound worse and worse in order to make D3's problems not seem as bad. It's rather funny that some people make D2 at release as some sort of abomination that was unplayable until LoD came out.

To anyone who wants to defend D3, do so by citing the game's own virtues and not be attacking D2. You're not making D3 sound like a good game when you do, at best your arguing that people shouldn't complain about D3 because it might get better.
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It's amazing that players still can't get over the fact that this is a new game.

It's not a continuation of D2/LOD, and therefore should be looked upon as a different game.

If you don't like it, move on. Don't expect Blizzard to change this game around and go back in history to make it a D2 clone.

Personnally, I still play D2/LOD now and then - I have two different mods of that game installed - but overall, I like D3 very much and don't wish for any D2/LOD stuff to be imported into this game.

As long as Blizzard keeps putting out patches, this game will get even better over time.
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It's a marketing trick. Who would want to buy a 40$ exp. pack if it didn't contain a new class, act and other goodies.
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It's amazing that players still can't get over the fact that this is a new game.

It's not a continuation of D2/LOD, and therefore should be looked upon as a different game.

If you don't like it, move on. Don't expect Blizzard to change this game around and go back in history to make it a D2 clone.


this.
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12/07/2012 06:16 AMPosted by Zymurgeist
It's an unnecessary argument if you like D3. D3 is a better game than D2 was in any form. Your basic assumption is based on the opinions of only the people who agree with you.

why? You can like something and still remain critical.

I am a fan of Blizzard and Diablo. Does it mean I should not ask why certain things are different? Particularly when it is painfully obvious.

Alone the fact that D2 LoD offered a lot more compared to D3 begs the question what went wrong, regardles if D3 is for it self a good game or not.

It's amazing that players still can't get over the fact that this is a new game.

It's not a continuation of D2/LOD, and therefore should be looked upon as a different game.

If you don't like it, move on. Don't expect Blizzard to change this game around and go back in history to make it a D2 clone.


this.

If it is a different game and not a continuation, then it should get a different name maybe.


As an example, if they put in charms as they existed in D2, then people would feel compelled to use them but hate the lack of inventory space that results. That's a flaw inherent to the charm system.

If I remember correctly there was a picture on the net about chams in D3. So they had that idea at some point. I think it was about a bag with limited size where you could place only chams inside - which would work perfect by in D3 by the way.

So sorry. Thats not an excuse for me. Its a pretty "lazy" thing to do even.

The fact how much space is important in D3 just shows how good the item System in D2 was. You had less space and usually less items to collect (in general) compared to D3 where you quite often move to town to identify everything which takes to much time by way just to realize how full of crap your inventory is. In D2 you would find a lot of junk as well, but the system as whole was more meaningfull, if you found some end game item or rune, then it was usually usefull and good. If you find some end game item in D3 its usually useless because it requires insane luck to get the correct "rolls" and "stats" on it ...

How people can defend a system like in D3 is something I dont understand.
Edited by CrniVuk#2227 on 12/7/2012 8:10 AM PST
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