Diablo® III

The Argument.. and why it doesn't fly

I see you misunderstand me. I was talking about the fact that I did not buy this game thinking it would be a perfect little copy of D2:LOD. In fact if I believed that in any way I might not have bought it until about a year or two later.

I knew that there would be no skill/stat points to spend. I knew that the talisman system was scrapped along with the Mystic and many other things that you also no doubt knew about just by reading the information on diablofans.com and the official site before this game launched. The rest of the game was unknown until I bought it and played it.

So this means that I had more than enough information to decide whether I wanted to buy this game or not. That is exactly what I am talking about and I know that many other players had the same information that I did and made their decision accordingly.


I understood that the game would be different. I, and many others, trusted Blizzard would change the game for the better. We believed them because we wanted to believe. We believed them because of their stellar track record.

However, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The hype did not match the delivered product. You are being naughty to suggest that reading a review website will give the full experience of a game. If it did, we would not need to play it, would we?

Also, official review sites are hardly known to give accurate impressions of 'end game' content. They have a go, say something nice and move on.

So this means that there was NOT enough information to go on. A photo of a pizza is not a pizza.


What and you believe that Blizz launches perfect games without any flaws. News flash, Mike himself said that Blizz has never released the perfect game. I will never expect a single game that Blizz releases to be perfect. In fact they will always be working on their games to make them the best game that they can possibly be. It will be a team effort between Blizz and the players.

What did I need to know the whole story from begging to end. Did I need to see how legendaries were. Heck the info on the website might not accurately reflect how they will work in the game.

What I am saying is that there was enough info for me to make my decision, without it being told everything blow by blow. What do you need to know how many peperoni slices are on a pizza, how much cheese, etc.., before you even buy it. I know that I do not need to know it all before buying product or a game.

I knew it would be a different game with flaws. Flaws that in time would be fixed with patches or expansions like the majority of games that are made. Blizz is known for changing their games. They are known for not being happy with their games, even if it is a good game. They still are not happy with it, they are always working to improve them.

charms/talisman system would add new items which do the same job as current gear. This can be easily balanced by increasing the overall difficulty and none will notice since u would use the charm/talisman system.
The mystic... ok this one is pointless but on the other hand take a look at enchanting from WOW - it does the same thimg


Sorry but I want charms to have unique affixes that cannot spawn on gear. Otherwise to me they will be nothing more than stat sticks. Where players will only go for the same old stats that we go for on normal gear. The same is true for the mystic's enchants. I want new affixes that cannot appear on charms or gear so that the mystic is not another stat stick.

I would like to see build diversity come from the skill/runes, special affixes on gear, charms, and the mystic's enchants.

I just do not want a system where you have five or more things all doing the same thing where is the diversity in that. It would not exist.

I would like to see affixes were you would be able to say I will not use the main stat for dps. Because the affixes I am going for will give me enough boost to the damage of my skills that I will not need the main stat to do high dps. You will not get that if you are using those things as stat sticks where enchants and charms are doing the same thing gear does.
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12/09/2012 05:29 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
In fact they will always be working on their games to make them the best game that they can possibly be.


This really is true, and I know firsthand that they are always working to improve their games.

With time I am quite confident that they are going to make this game into something really special.

I can only imagine how cool PVP will be, and especially if they added something like capture the flag.
Edited by MagusHenosis#1202 on 12/9/2012 5:32 AM PST
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12/09/2012 04:19 AMPosted by Zymurgeist
How is my perspective in any way blissfully ignorant?


You !@#$in kidding me?:

D3 is a better game than D2 was in any form.
Edited by Montus#1499 on 12/9/2012 5:51 AM PST
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I see you misunderstand me. I was talking about the fact that I did not buy this game thinking it would be a perfect little copy of D2:LOD. In fact if I believed that in any way I might not have bought it until about a year or two later.

I knew that there would be no skill/stat points to spend. I knew that the talisman system was scrapped along with the Mystic and many other things that you also no doubt knew about just by reading the information on diablofans.com and the official site before this game launched. The rest of the game was unknown until I bought it and played it.

So this means that I had more than enough information to decide whether I wanted to buy this game or not. That is exactly what I am talking about and I know that many other players had the same information that I did and made their decision accordingly.

I understood that the game would be different. I, and many others, trusted Blizzard would change the game for the better. We believed them because we wanted to believe. We believed them because of their stellar track record.

However, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The hype did not match the delivered product. You are being naughty to suggest that reading a review website will give the full experience of a game. If it did, we would not need to play it, would we?

Also, official review sites are hardly known to give accurate impressions of 'end game' content. They have a go, say something nice and move on.

So this means that there was NOT enough information to go on. A photo of a pizza is not a pizza.

What and you believe that Blizz launches perfect games without any flaws. News flash, Mike himself said that Blizz has never released the perfect game. I will never expect a single game that Blizz releases to be perfect. In fact they will always be working on their games to make them the best game that they can possibly be. It will be a team effort between Blizz and the players.

What did I need to know the whole story from begging to end. Did I need to see how legendaries were. Heck the info on the website might not accurately reflect how they will work in the game.

What I am saying is that there was enough info for me to make my decision, without it being told everything blow by blow. What do you need to know how many peperoni slices are on a pizza, how much cheese, etc.., before you even buy it. I know that I do not need to know it all before buying product or a game.

I knew it would be a different game with flaws. Flaws that in time would be fixed with patches or expansions like the majority of games that are made. Blizz is known for changing their games. They are known for not being happy with their games, even if it is a good game. They still are not happy with it, they are always working to improve them.


He or she did not say he or she was expecting a game that is flawless. He or she expressed that the product they got was not living to the expectation he or she is expecting from Blizzard.

How did you come to conclusion he or she told you he or she is expecting a flawless game from Blizzard?

He or she is telling you to taste the pizza. Not look at it. Only by trying, would you know how good a product really is or how that pizza really taste like.

Knowing from reading, even it does ( in your own words ) tells you " everything blow by blow " The knowledge are just words on papers and theories that offer no real experience.

I do not think he or she is interested about if you want or do not want to know how many slices of pepperoni are there on a pizza. He or she might not be interested in your own view.

He or she is just asking you not to make such a certain statement about something before you even experience it.
Edited by Dutchmilk#6229 on 12/9/2012 6:40 AM PST
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12/09/2012 03:56 AMPosted by Zymurgeist
Opinions don't need support. They're opinions and that's all the weight they carry. This constant echo chamber arguing is beyond silly. D3 is not and will never be D2. If you don't like that tough. No one is going to win friends and influence people through repeitition. It just drives people away until the chanting monkey forum chorus thinks they've won something by talking to themselves.


Everything that influence more than one person, in any sorts of ways, need supports.

You missed a point very badly. No one here has yet to say they want Diablo III to be a exact copy of Diablo II. What they said and what the OP is expressing, is why removed the good points of the previous installments. The current system does not justify the reason to remove the good points, since the ones made to replace it, are inferior.

Opinions are hollow and weightless in any debates until it strike a common agreement to a group of people who agree. Hence the sharing of the agreement do strengthen these opinions.

Since there are some who disagree with you, while you oddly told them that they are not going to win friends and influenced people, while echoing in repetition.

Which they did not.

They wrote a post, They made a comment, and that is all they did. If some others wrote something similar. They are, simply, other people.

These other people are certainly not the same people who posted in this thread.

What you did was to tell everyone who do not share the same views as you to shut up.

Yet you present nothing to valid your weightless opinions. Indeed, how empty and silly are your words and your opinions.
Edited by Dutchmilk#6229 on 12/9/2012 6:46 AM PST
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You missed a point very badly. No one here has yet to say they want Diablo III to be a exact copy of Diablo II. What they said and what the OP is expressing, is why removed the good points of the previous installments. The current system does not justify the reason to remove the good points, since the ones made to replace it, are inferior.


A specific style of character progression and permanency in builds is NOT what Diablo was all about.

The CORE, and I mean true CORE of the game is it's an randomly generated Isometric ARPG with mouse driven point and click action with loot drops in a specific setting. That is the core. That is what makes Diablo sell millions.

The reason why the argument does fly is because this game does use some different mechanics, so now some of the old puzzle pieces don't fit anymore. We can't just start plunking in "good points" from Diablo 2 and all of a sudden it's better. This NEW dev team thinks they can evolve and innovate the genera by taking it in a new direction as far as the action and character progression works. You're allowed to not like it, but claiming they are "wrong" for doing so or they don't have the "right" to do it in a Diablo game is crazy.

...and people need to lay off the "Blizzard milking the Diabo name for money" BS. Blizzard owns the IP...they can do whatever they want with it. It's not like they made Diablo-Cart Racing.
Edited by Connatic#1376 on 12/9/2012 7:14 AM PST
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12/09/2012 07:11 AMPosted by Connatic
Diablo-Cart Racing.

I just pictured Diablo in a go-cart, making the DK sound. Thank you for the laugh.
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A specific style of character progression and permanency in builds is NOT what Diablo was all about.

The CORE, and I mean true CORE of the game is it's an randomly generated Isometric ARPG with mouse driven point and click action with loot drops in a specific setting. That is the core. That is what makes Diablo sell millions.

The reason why the argument does fly is because this game does use some different mechanics, so now some of the old puzzle pieces don't fit anymore. We can't just start plunking in "good points" from Diablo 2 and all of a sudden it's better. This NEW dev team thinks they can evolve and innovate the genera by taking it in a new direction as far as the action and character progression works. You're allowed to not like it, but claiming they are "wrong" for doing so or they don't have the "right" to do it in a Diablo game is crazy.

...and people need to lay off the "Blizzard milking the Diabo name for money" BS. Blizzard owns the IP...they can do whatever they want with it. It's not like they made Diablo-Cart Racing.


Your point are true. I just do not respect the decision for them to do so due to the poor system the current game have.

I do not think the current system would allow the any of the previous designs to fit it. Like you said. It is different.

Personally, i just find it shallow.

Diablo is indeed their product, but it is also up to people's interpretation of how they determine what is " milking. "

It goes both ways.

There are some who wrote as well, if you are going to take something that is already a established product and take it so far that it bears no resemblance to it's past.

It would be better to start a new title.

Hallmarks are very hard to replace. To do so, is always possible, however the NEW developers team, did not do a job good enough to replace the things they removed.

Hence you got threads like this that openly question that decision.
Edited by Dutchmilk#6229 on 12/9/2012 8:16 AM PST
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12/09/2012 07:11 AMPosted by Connatic
The CORE, and I mean true CORE of the game is it's an randomly generated Isometric ARPG with mouse driven point and click action with loot drops in a specific setting. That is the core. That is what makes Diablo sell millions.


This is really somewhat a debate that is really hard to talk about.

While what you wrote is 100% correct, the current core of this current entry of Diablo, tend to drive people up to the auction house and real money auction house. Since the core of the game is to hunt for better items, players are drawn to the lure of the better items which is really hard to find in-game.

Is the core still there? yes.
But did the existence of Auction house and Real money auction house become a factor in influencing the core?

It would be foolish to say no. It would be more foolish not to use it and influence it as a way of business.

Like you said, since Diablo is Blizzard product. To profit is certainly on top of their list. IF there is a way to produce more money. It would be indeed very foolish for them not to control the core.

In the name of business, that would be most wise to do so.

Since it is wise, has it change the core? Yes it did, for the core in the previous two installments possessed higher drop-rates and better quality too. It was much easier to find them in- game in previous installments too.

If that core was to remain untouched and unchanged. The function of Auction House and Real money auction house potential would be greatly reduced or cease to exist all together.

Is the core different now? Yes.
Edited by Dutchmilk#6229 on 12/9/2012 8:16 AM PST
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12/09/2012 07:11 AMPosted by Connatic
The CORE, and I mean true CORE of the game is it's an randomly generated Isometric ARPG with mouse driven point and click action with loot drops in a specific setting. That is the core. That is what makes Diablo sell millions.


how many other arpg's were released with "randomly generated Isometric ARPG with mouse driven point and click action with loot drops in a specific setting?"
point is, a few have tried but non got near the success diablo had. Must have been more than that.

I have thought about this since the first week. It really seemed like they didn't learn what happened during the d2 process. It's no excuse that this team is a new one. If I were in that team, and I was picked to carry on such a loved game, u best bet ill do my homework on what my predecessors did.

I play cod too. Even though different company's create modern warfare and black ops, they both know to never just scrap something so basic to the game like using perks, or make a class of guns damn near useless like how they made the 2h class in this game.

Can you imagine if they released a cod game without multiplayer mode, like how d3 did with pvp? Now that would be insanity.
Edited by Nel3000#1731 on 12/9/2012 8:10 AM PST
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12/09/2012 07:11 AMPosted by Connatic
A specific style of character progression and permanency in builds is NOT what Diablo was all about.


There is no buildS to even talk about in Diablo III, while that specific style of character progression was removed totally with nothing good to replace.

A new direction does not mean make it worse. Doesn't it?
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how many other arpg's were released with "randomly generated Isometric ARPG with mouse driven point and click action with loot drops in a specific setting?"
point is, a few have tried but non got near the success diablo had. Must have been more than that.


...and many of them more closely resemble the D2 progression system. Were they as successful as Diablo 3? How will Torchlight 2 do? Did the father of Diablo 2 do everything right? Just to improve upon what made Diablo 2 great in his new game?

There is no buildS to even talk about in Diablo III, while that specific style of character progression was removed totally with nothing good to replace.

A new direction does not mean make it worse. Doesn't it?


It depends on what you think of this new direction. For you it's worse. You are in the camp that loved to tinker with numbers and rerolls for 10 years trying to get all the obfuscated builds just right. I can see the game in that, it can be fun for some (many based on the forum rage). But someone like me, when I played Diablo 1 and 2...I didn't try to get max level character and experiment over and over again. The part of Diablo 2 you praise, is one I thought was tedious. Pretty much after every second or 3rd reroll to try a new build and get it "wrong" I'm just like, ok I'm done.

For me, I l LOVE the direction Diablo 3 took. I love the system. I agree itemization is kinda bland, but that's just because how they flipped the progression(or lack there off) and skill system. They made it so customizable that you could try any "build" whenever you want. They kinda did Diablo 2 in reverse. In Diablo 2, they gave you character classes that were pretty bland with simple 1-3 active skill sets, but they used overly complicated itemization to spice it up. The down side for me, this requires lots of tedium and grinding to truly achieve this experience.

In Diablo 3, they let you try all these builds whenever you want, all you had to do is level to 60 to get complete access. Focusing more on the action and tactics of the system, not the building of the character. But now the items are nothing more than decoration and power gauges, which is a flaw, but is also why the argument still holds up.

They are definitely NOT going back 12 years and recreating the same mistakes. They have gone forward and created entirely NEW mistakes. Which is what excites me. I want to see how they give this new system the LoD treatment.
Edited by Connatic#1376 on 12/9/2012 8:50 AM PST
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It depends on what you think of this new direction. For you it's worse. You are in the camp that loved to tinker with numbers and rerolls for 10 years trying to get all the obfuscated builds just right. I can see the game in that, it can be fun for some (many based on the forum rage). But someone like me, when I played Diablo 1 and 2...I didn't try to get max level character and experiment over and over again. The part of Diablo 2 you praise, is one I thought was tedious. Pretty much after every second or 3rd reroll to try a new build and get it "wrong" I'm just like, ok I'm done.


I praise what?
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now that we have mosnter power, whats the point of inferno?
if they had release d3 with monterpower/players there wont be a need for inferno at all

see? thats how laughable this game dev team is
Edited by Tgod#1757 on 12/9/2012 9:56 AM PST
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It depends on what you think of this new direction. For you it's worse. You are in the camp that loved to tinker with numbers and rerolls for 10 years trying to get all the obfuscated builds just right. I can see the game in that, it can be fun for some (many based on the forum rage). But someone like me, when I played Diablo 1 and 2...I didn't try to get max level character and experiment over and over again. The part of Diablo 2 you praise, is one I thought was tedious. Pretty much after every second or 3rd reroll to try a new build and get it "wrong" I'm just like, ok I'm done.

For me, I l LOVE the direction Diablo 3 took. I love the system. I agree itemization is kinda bland, but that's just because how they flipped the progression(or lack there off) and skill system. They made it so customizable that you could try any "build" whenever you want. They kinda did Diablo 2 in reverse. In Diablo 2, they gave you character classes that were pretty bland with simple 1-3 active skill sets, but they used overly complicated itemization to spice it up. The down side for me, this requires lots of tedium and grinding to truly achieve this experience.


Kind of bland is really a understatement. And what builds can one build? If i may ask? since i can choose the exact same set of skills as you do? Buy the same gears as you do?

There are good points and i do like the fact we can try skills as different as we want, but that does not give builds since character improvement is limited with gears only.
Edited by Dutchmilk#6229 on 12/9/2012 10:13 AM PST
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I praise what?


Diablo 2 progression system verses Diablo 3's lack there off. Are you not a proponent of an improved Diablo 2 system as apposed to Diablo 3's new direction?

12/09/2012 10:03 AMPosted by Dutchmilk
Kind of bland is really a understatement. And what builds can one build? If i may ask? since i can choose the exact same set of skills as you do? Buy the same gears as you do?


You don't "build" a character in Diablo 3. You pick a playstyle and find gear to make it better. The finding gear to make better part is one of the things this system needs to improve upon. I'm no expert but I haven't heard of any other ways to build characters besdies +crit, +damage, or +survivability. Maybe a MP10 Hardcore expert could tell us more about that.

I don't care whether you think permanency is better than freely being able to respecc at will, choosing a playstyle instead of having to build one and be stuck with it. That's a matter of opinion. I'm saying despite this difference, the one you don't like, it is still a Diablo game.

It doesn't have to leave off directly where LoD did and ONLY use it's exact foundation to improve the game. It's perfectly reasonable, after 10 years, to try and take it in a new direction and to innovate, which is why the "Argument" the OP is talking about DOES hold up. This is NOT an exact clone. They are starting from scratch in a way and have to improve upon it, just as patches and LoD did with Diablo 2. Like I said. Diablo 3 is not filled with the mistakes of Diablo 2 at release. it's totally different with entirely new mistakes.
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12/09/2012 10:32 AMPosted by Connatic
Diablo 2 progression system verses Diablo 3's lack there off. Are you not a proponent of an improved Diablo 2 system as apposed to Diablo 3's new direction?


No, i does not respect the direction taken to replace the old system. For it is not better.

Not because the old system should be back because i prefer it.

Most people are blinded and just wish it to come back. I rather the current one to be much better to justify the reason to remove it and replace it with something better.
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You don't "build" a character in Diablo 3. You pick a playstyle and find gear to make it better. The finding gear to make better part is one of the things this system needs to improve upon. I'm no expert but I haven't heard of any other ways to build characters besdies +crit, +damage, or +survivability. Maybe a MP10 Hardcore expert could tell us more about that.

I don't care whether you think permanency is better than freely being able to respecc at will, choosing a playstyle instead of having to build one and be stuck with it. That's a matter of opinion. I'm saying despite this difference, the one you don't like, it is still a Diablo game.

It doesn't have to leave off directly where LoD did and ONLY use it's exact foundation to improve the game. It's perfectly reasonable, after 10 years, to try and take it in a new direction and to innovate, which is why the "Argument" the OP is talking about DOES hold up. This is NOT an exact clone. They are starting from scratch in a way and have to improve upon it, just as patches and LoD did with Diablo 2. Like I said. Diablo 3 is not filled with the mistakes of Diablo 2 at release. it's totally different with entirely new mistakes.


Since you do not care what my debate's focus is, what do you wish to continue debating with me? I care about the focus of your points and trying to understand your point of views., hence i am continuing this debate with you.

You are pretty rude when you said that.

As to the point clone, i agreed, it is not an exact clone, but the question is why start from the scratch and behave as if this is a new title?

While both are ridden with mistakes, diablo II has a system that allow it to improve without overhauling majors parts of it.
Edited by Dutchmilk#6229 on 12/9/2012 10:41 AM PST
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12/09/2012 10:35 AMPosted by Dutchmilk
Diablo 2 progression system verses Diablo 3's lack there off. Are you not a proponent of an improved Diablo 2 system as apposed to Diablo 3's new direction?


No, i does not respect the direction taken to replace the old system. For it is not better.

Not because the old system should be back because i prefer it.

Most people are blinded and just wish it to come back. I rather the current one to be much better to justify the reason to remove it and replace it with something better.


That's just a matter of opinion. You don't like the new system, lots of people, (myself included) do.
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Posted by Dutchmilk
Diablo 2 progression system verses Diablo 3's lack there off. Are you not a proponent of an improved Diablo 2 system as apposed to Diablo 3's new direction?

No, i does not respect the direction taken to replace the old system. For it is not better.

Not because the old system should be back because i prefer it.

Most people are blinded and just wish it to come back. I rather the current one to be much better to justify the reason to remove it and replace it with something better.

That's just a matter of opinion. You don't like the new system, lots of people, (myself included) do.


Yea i know. I never said other's liking is wrong. Even they think differently from me.

Some of the gamer chose to reply to me, and it is only polite for me to reply to them. Or should i just troll them and ask them to fook off like some of the gamer do?

Odd that when someone try to have a conversation, you think they are up against you. The walls are really tight for people lately.
Edited by Dutchmilk#6229 on 12/9/2012 10:46 AM PST
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