Diablo® III

The Argument.. and why it doesn't fly

12/07/2012 07:49 AMPosted by Joren
It's a marketing trick. Who would want to buy a 40$ exp. pack if it didn't contain a new class, act and other goodies.

Ding, ding, ding! Welcome to Activision folks! Don't forget to buy every single one of their console games with new content to download 2 weeks after the game releases! (get it?)
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12/09/2012 10:38 AMPosted by Dutchmilk
Since you do not care what my debate's focus is, what do you wish to continue debating with me?


Well if we aren't talking about the OP anymore, please restate your supposition and I would love to continue. Perhaps I've lost where this is going seeing how you've quoted and responded to many different people in this thread.

As to the point clone, i agreed, it is not an exact clone, but the question is why start from the scratch and behave as if this is a new title?

While both are ridden with mistakes, diablo II has a system that allow it to improve with overhauling majors parts of it.


Why not? You think it's unreasonable for different people to want to innovate? To call it there own? To create something new instead of doing the same thing over and over again, just adding polish? Sure they changed the progression system,but the entire game is not so different that it feels weird to call it Diablo. Tim Burton's Batman is a lot different from Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight...but they are both Batman moves.

Do you really think the Diablo 3 system has no way of improving, even after expansions?
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Yea i know. I never said other's liking is wrong. Even it is different from me.


However, it seems that those that do like D3 really like the AH system rather than the game itself.
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Why not? You think it's unreasonable for different people to want to innovate? To call it there own? To create something new instead of doing the same thing over and over again, just adding polish? Sure they changed the progression system,but the entire game is not so different that it feels weird to call it Diablo. Tim Burton's Batman is a lot different from Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight...but they are both Batman moves.

Do you really think the Diablo 3 system has no way of improving, even after expansions?


I did not think that it is impossible, i just think it is shallow. It would take major overhauling which they already started doing.

It is not unreasonable as well to make a game differently and implanted it with your footprints. However what the new team did was not successful enough to sell the decision to make such a system. If you were to do a new title, it is certainly very forgiving to make mistakes. Yet unfortunately, they are handling a project which is titan in scale. Any and everything is under the watchful eyes.

Mistakes will have a bigger impacts than before.

These are the problems that comes with big title. Are the mistakes really that unforgiving? No, just that there are many eyes with too many people awaitng to criticize.

That is reason why Hollywood studios do not change their systems easily. Because it has a proven formula.

Does it mean one cannot break the mold? No, it does not mean that. However it take great efforts to get it right, and get it right at the first time to win over the expectation which is already there.

Anything fallen short or better, would be considered bad.

As for Mr Burton and Mr Nolan, they are really different and they both made Batman, and both however, are very successful in their own rights in their Batman movie.

You do not see much people hating Mr Nolan for making Batman so serious, or anyone laughing back at the time where Mr Burton make Batman in a way so graphical dark comic style.

Because they both pull it off. They win the crowd over at first strike. The similar point is Batman is a big title in the comic world, there are lots of expectation. Both men have the talents to take it to a different realm and new height with their takes.

They won people over.

IF that situation is the same situation with Diablo. There isn't much to say.
Edited by Dutchmilk#6229 on 12/9/2012 3:14 PM PST
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12/09/2012 10:54 AMPosted by LunathirEth
However, it seems that those that do like D3 really like the AH system rather than the game itself.


Perhaps, it does help if you are good at the Auction House system.
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12/09/2012 10:53 AMPosted by Connatic
Well if we aren't talking about the OP anymore, please restate your supposition and I would love to continue. Perhaps I've lost where this is going seeing how you've quoted and responded to many different people in this thread.


My supposition never shifted till you replied to one of my comments and wrote about the core of the game, which i took time to reply to you.

I too already replied to you about this.

You wrote " You're allowed to not like it, but claiming they are "wrong" for doing so or they don't have the "right" to do it in a Diablo game is crazy. "

Your point are true. I just do not respect the decision for them to do so due to the poor system the current game have.

I do not think the current system would allow the any of the previous designs to fit it. Like you said. It is different.

Personally, i just find it shallow.

Diablo is indeed their product, but it is also up to people's interpretation of how they determine what is " milking. "

It goes both ways.

There are some who wrote as well, if you are going to take something that is already a established product and take it so far that it bears no resemblance to it's past.

It would be better to start a new title.

Hallmarks are very hard to replace. To do so, is always possible, however the NEW developers team, did not do a job good enough to replace the things they removed.

Hence you got threads like this that openly question that decision.


We never really exchanged notes about why you and i think differently.

You said the system is new, hence the old parts of the old systems cannot fit in. I agreed to that. There is not much disagreement to begin with.

I just made a stand, while others make theirs and i heard them. The only dislike i had for this forum, is the existence of some human who simply cannot respect and listen to what others would like to say.

They simply trolled their ways to " win ". Win? What is there to win in a forum? Victory get you a billion dollar stack of golds? You get shower with greens till your face goes green?

What a forum really function as, is to hear the many different voices that in hope end up in a solution for a problem discussed.

From a business point of view

Sometime, innovation is a risky move to do, especially with big titles.

Do it right, you get all the flowers.

Do it wrong you get the daggers and poison.

Do it lesser than right, you get flowers coated poison and praise you to smell it.

To continue with movie examples.

If the Hobbit come out horrible this year, all the sticks will be all on Peter Jackson. He did tried something new with the camera. He shot the film in 48 frames per seconds in HD, giving the film a documentary feel.

Did the change of format and speed make a difference? Nothing and no, to how well the stories are presented.

However a camera format and speed do control the looks of a film, as well as the amount of lights needed. Which is vital to a movie's visual impact. Visual impact is important to a motion picture.

The success of the movie in terms of liking would justify his decision. If the movie turn out to be lesser than the Lords of the Ring or not successful at all. People will go after anything and everything just to criticize it. Even that thing affect little to none.

I care not what they change. I just care what they changed should be tenfold more impressive, since the previous was so impressive.

I cannot recall the views and stands on both Batman movies by Mr Burton and Mr Nolan are ever as split as Diablo is.
Edited by Dutchmilk#6229 on 12/9/2012 11:59 AM PST
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12/07/2012 05:56 AMPosted by Ziggro
Becouse when u reach high level and u suck, u can blame your skills, and re roll, the way d3 is designed, u can only run to the RMAH.
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12/09/2012 07:11 AMPosted by Connatic
The CORE, and I mean true CORE of the game is it's an randomly generated Isometric ARPG with mouse driven point and click action with loot drops in a specific setting. That is the core. That is what makes Diablo sell millions.

I think this is a very good point but I think your analysis/interpretation of the effect is completely off the mark.

Diablo is indeed about the randomly generated isometric ARPG experience, loot, and setting and it is for that very reason why D3 has fallen so flat in comparison. Diablo and Diablo II brought the traditional PnP RPG experience to a more action oriented PC gaming environment. D3 has forsaken that route in its implementation of many, many features.

Character progression and choice are undeniable centerpieces of the RPG experience. It is the core of role-playing. D3 completely stripped that away and it has caused a massive backlash. Maybe you don't like that element, maybe you do prefer the new approach, but all that says is that you didn't like the core RPG experience that made Diablo the legend it is. You may have benefited from this change but the core audience was lost. The new approach in D3 is more akin to classic arcade games than the old PnP RPG. It was the added depth of the RPG elements that drew people to the series and kept them around wanting more.

I could speak of other elements such as the isometric view and art style which I feel nailed the Gothic feel far better than Diablo 3 has managed. The tech that D2 used was primitive in comparison but the aesthetics hit all of the dark tones far better than D3. D3 feels more fantasy and less Gothic in comparison.

Path of Exile uses the more classic approach as in D2 and though many call the graphics poor (rather appropriately - the graphics are poor in comparison as far as the tech goes compared to D3) but the aesthetics are far superior in achieving the dark foreboding tones that really provided the atmosphere that really defined D2. I'm not sure that fancy technology can duplicate those aesthetics with 3-d models and higher resolution.

The randomization as you mention is a problem as well. D3 distinctly lacks in that department. Above ground environments are not even randomized. Minor elements and detailing are but the world itself is static. This again drifts away from the core experience from Diablo that made it a legend. The replayability that came with that randomization was key.

Personally D3 feels like a game that would do well in an arcade; drop a few quarters in and have fun for a short while enjoying the over-the-top animations and collect a few awesome items but rather forgettable once you've walked away. It doesn't have the same investment in the experience that keeps people around. It misses the core experience and lacks the RPG investment that makes the game worth coming back to hour after hour, day after day.
Edited by steveman0#1968 on 12/9/2012 11:43 AM PST
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I want to take a second out of this thread and ask you all to take a look at this solution to make paragon leveling better.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7350165554?page=1#0
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- D2 wasn't as good until LoD came out.
- D2 didn't have all the goodies when it came out, it took LoD for that
- Why should we expect D3 to have all it's goodies upon release if D2 didn't?

Let's flip the argument around and ask this question instead: Why did the D3 dev team literally go back 12 years and in essence, re-create D2 like it was released on day 1, with the exception of them removing PvP and the majority of the loot.

Yes D2 didn't have all it's goodies right away, but the fact of the matter is, all those little core goodies that made the diablo franchise great, were sitting there for them on a silver platter yelling "add me" "add me" "they love us".

So then you have to ask yourself this: Upon making D3, why did they remove the majority of the items, the runes, charms, jewels, rune words, horadric cube, an act, a class, the randomness, the PvP, the ladder, the social system, skill diversity, build diversity, the offline mode, chat rooms, 8 player max.

Why did they not just add these to D3, then start adding in all their creative ideas on top of it? There is absolutely no excuse as to why this dev team didn't add in all the core ingredients that were already part of the franchise.


so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so so

VERY TRUE


This !
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Posts: 1,034
By the OP's logic, XP shouldn't have taken 2 service packs to surpass '98. And Vista wouldn't have been such a bomb after XP.
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Diablo is indeed about the randomly generated isometric ARPG experience, loot, and setting and it is for that very reason why D3 has fallen so flat in comparison. Diablo and Diablo II brought the traditional PnP RPG experience to a more action oriented PC gaming environment. D3 has forsaken that route in its implementation of many, many features.


Which they advertised about this change in direction and then proceeded to sell 10 million copies. Since some people seem to think Blizzard tricked them into buying this game, the only way we will measure it's true success is if every expansion totally flops I guess.

The bottom line is, yes this game will need patches and expansions to truly see if it lasts a decade like D2 did. The Devs DID learn from LoD, and decided to try and take it further by going a different direction. If the people that like this buy into more than the people that don't, then Diablo 3 is a success. Until then, it's just arguing about what we thought made Diablo 2 great, which there is really no right or wrong.
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12/09/2012 01:33 PMPosted by Connatic
Diablo is indeed about the randomly generated isometric ARPG experience, loot, and setting and it is for that very reason why D3 has fallen so flat in comparison. Diablo and Diablo II brought the traditional PnP RPG experience to a more action oriented PC gaming environment. D3 has forsaken that route in its implementation of many, many features.


Which they advertised about this change in direction and then proceeded to sell 10 million copies. Since some people seem to think Blizzard tricked them into buying this game, the only way we will measure it's true success is if every expansion totally flops I guess.

The bottom line is, yes this game will need patches and expansions to truly see if it lasts a decade like D2 did. The Devs DID learn from LoD, and decided to try and take it further by going a different direction. If the people that like this buy into more than the people that don't, then Diablo 3 is a success. Until then, it's just arguing about what we thought made Diablo 2 great, which there is really no right or wrong.

There are a number of flaws in this post. The first is the massive assumption that most who bought the game paid any attention to advertisement whatsoever. I'm sure many didn't even know about the changes to the skill system. Also, it wasn't until just a couple months before release that they announced the gutting of the socketed rune and rune level system that was supposed to really define the character customization in the game. The evidence for this is plain as day just by looking at customer reviews and the outrage about the changes in the skill system after release (even before release in a number of threads that had criticized its poor implementation and departure from D2).

The vast majority of those 10 million sales came from the expectations from Blizzard as a company and the resounding success of Diablo II as a game. There was the expectation that the game would pick up from D2 and continue in its direction. No one expected the game to completely shift the core focus which was wrong of them to do regardless of advertising. Consumer opinion of the game has already shown this to be a major mistake and I couldn't imagine anyone who would believe that the expansion has any chance to sell well compared to the base game based on everything we have seen.
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There are a number of flaws in this post. The first is the massive assumption that most who bought the game paid any attention to advertisement whatsoever. I'm sure many didn't even know about the changes to the skill system. Also, it wasn't until just a couple months before release that they announced the gutting of the socketed rune and rune level system that was supposed to really define the character customization in the game. The evidence for this is plain as day just by looking at customer reviews and the outrage about the changes in the skill system after release (even before release in a number of threads that had criticized its poor implementation and departure from D2).

The vast majority of those 10 million sales came from the expectations from Blizzard as a company and the resounding success of Diablo II as a game. There was the expectation that the game would pick up from D2 and continue in its direction. No one expected the game to completely shift the core focus which was wrong of them to do regardless of advertising. Consumer opinion of the game has already shown this to be a major mistake and I couldn't imagine anyone who would believe that the expansion has any chance to sell well compared to the base game based on everything we have seen.
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This is accurate, at least it does applied on my situation. I knew nothing till i already brought the game, and could only experienced the whole system when i was actually playing it.

Was expecting Diablo III , yet i got went to the store buying something...and got home playing....em....well something...
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12/09/2012 03:18 PMPosted by Dutchmilk
This is accurate, at least it does applied on my situation. I knew nothing till i already brought the game, and could only experienced the whole system when i was actually playing it.


12/09/2012 02:51 PMPosted by steveman0
There was the expectation that the game would pick up from D2 and continue in its direction


Well maybe for you guys that's how it went down, but I really find it hard to believe that the majority of super D2 fans that played that game forever, didn't follow the development of D3 at all. I probably played D2 half as long as D3 in the end, and I was fully aware of the main differences that D3 would have that the people have been complaining about since release. (Well since before closed beta even.) I mean I guess if we were able to pre-order the game before the announcement of runes no longer being items...maybe, I can't remember that far back. But when I played the game, it was everything they said it was going to be.

12/09/2012 02:51 PMPosted by steveman0
The vast majority of those 10 million sales came from the expectations from Blizzard as a company and the resounding success of Diablo II as a game.
This is why, not because of a specific form of character progression in Diablo, but because Blizzard in general has a reputation for making good, well produced games. If they support Diablo 3 just as much as they did 2, it will only get better.
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They removed the best part of D2.... the low level set items... they were just awesome...

You could use something like Sigon gloves+boots combos for levelling... now there's NOTHING in low levels... I don't have any interest to start a new character, because there's nothing fun there.
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And remember when you reached certain level... you could start using 2 Angelic set items.... that was so much fun... combining set items from different sets while levelling. The best in diablo.
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12/09/2012 04:04 PMPosted by Connatic
Well maybe for you guys that's how it went down, but I really find it hard to believe that the majority of super D2 fans that played that game forever, didn't follow the development of D3 at all. I probably played D2 half as long as D3 in the end, and I was fully aware of the main differences that D3 would have that the people have been complaining about since release. (Well since before closed beta even.) I mean I guess if we were able to pre-order the game before the announcement of runes no longer being items...maybe, I can't remember that far back. But when I played the game, it was everything they said it was going to be.

I happened to follow the news on D3 prior to release and the community was a ghost town in comparison to it after release. In the years leading up to it the forums probably had just a few thousand who might have visited regularly. The difference between pre-release and post-release was unmistakable. Further still, the difference pre-beta and post-beta was equally significant.

Outside of the forums there was no detailed news on the game so that limits the number who saw all those details to perhaps a fraction of a percent of those who bought the game. My brother himself is among the experienced veterans of D2 and he didn't so much as watch the announcement video let alone read any of the news on the game. You drastically overestimate the number of people who really followed all the details.

Oh and yes, the game was available for pre-order at least several months before the decision to cut runes as items. I would contest that it was everything they said it would be. There was an incredible amount of hype about many elements that entirely missed the mark on release. Among them was the shady dealings with their hiding of properties of legendary items which, despite the uproar at their blandness, Blizzard did not follow through with making them cool for release instead keeping them hidden away where they could no longer cause commotion.
Edited by steveman0#1968 on 12/9/2012 4:26 PM PST
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