Diablo® III

What is your CM/SNS effective DPS?

Posts: 5,290
View profile
This is NOT an epeen measuring contest. I am trying to compare my dps with crystal shell to someone using diamond shards.

Here is where I stand now:

DPS 187k
Armor 4.4k
LOH 630
AR 775
Vit 33k
CC 58%
3.05 APS

I previously had the same stats but with 149k dps using a blackthornes amulet instead of the one you see in my profile. At mp 10, I could handle reflect by itself and electrified by itself but together they have become my nemesis with my current damage mitigation. I also found that if I was tanking an elite pack, ranged attackers had become a real pain also forcing me to teleport on top of them to kill them before returning to the elites. I was in need of more damage mitigation but I also wanted more dps which would need even more mitigation from reflect packs.

I ending up buying an amulet that added 37k dps. What this means is that at mp 8, which I think is going to be my optimum gear farming level, trash and elites die very fast and I can handle reflect + electrified with the help of teleport safe passage.

So when it comes to mp 9/10 uber runs, I use crystal shell instead of diamond shards. It greatly increases my damage mitigation to the point where I can keep absorbing multiple butterfly swarms from magdha. It also allows me to effectively tank reflect + electrified packs on mp 10 without dying.

This all brings me to my current question. What is your effective dps using SNS? No glass cannon or magic weapon. Currently, I have killed mp 10 ghom in 118 seconds using crystal shell (95 seconds with diamond shards) instead of diamond shards which works out to 1.1m dps assuming he has 138m hit points. I believe that puts me on par with someone who has 150k dps but uses proper SNS skills.

What I am hoping is that this huge jump in dps has allowed me to use crystal shell but still maintain dps similar to the 150k I had previous with the blackthornes amulet. Increasing my mitigation and still maintaining my current CC, APS, DPS was going to cost a hell of a lot more than the amulet did. Unfortunately, I sold the blackthornes amulet so I am unable to do any testing to compare with.
Edited by KillerElite#1853 on 12/7/2012 12:11 PM PST
Reply Quote
Actually someone already did the leg-work. Check out this thread: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004691927 . Diamond Shards definitely contributes, but it's definitely only a smaller portion compared to Shocking Aspect. You're probably losing 10% of your peak damage.
Reply Quote
You have to use that as a guideline, because everyone's multiplier changes based on their breakpoint and crit chance.

Someone needs to code a sim!

Edit: Also personally, I use GC and dropped DS in favor of CS because of reflect packs on high MP's. I actually think GC with CS is more effective DPS than DS/whatever.
Edited by Junger#1623 on 12/7/2012 12:24 PM PST
Reply Quote
Lorense coded a pretty quality sim, but somehow its a very slight bit low when I compared to my in game numbers. I can reliably get 8x with SNS (corrected for 4% elites)

Therefore 1.1m is roughly 138k dps SNS.
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,290
View profile
You have to use that as a guideline, because everyone's multiplier changes based on their breakpoint and crit chance.

Someone needs to code a sim!

Edit: Also personally, I use GC and dropped DS in favor of CS because of reflect packs on high MP's. I actually think GC with CS is more effective DPS than DS/whatever.


Interesting. I may give GC a try while using crystal shell and do some mp 10 farming. If I can effectively tank reflect + electrified I may use it.

Lorense coded a pretty quality sim, but somehow its a very slight bit low when I compared to my in game numbers. I can reliably get 8x with SNS (corrected for 4% elites)

Therefore 1.1m is roughly 138k dps SNS.


So how much does your health move when you are fighting reflect + electrified on mp 10?
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,290
View profile


Therefore 1.1m is roughly 138k dps SNS.


Do you really think it is that low in comparison? So with me, at 187k dps, using crystal shell I am doing the same effective dps as someone with 138k dps who is using diamond shards? Maybe I will buy a cheap amulet with just IAS and CC to gimp my dps by 50k to see what happens If I use SNS. If that is the case then that is more than a 10% difference.
Reply Quote
I'll test it out when I get home.
Reply Quote
I'm disliking shards more and more ... or maybe i'm liking shell more and more. My personal MP10 ghom time trials tell me shards give me no more than 5% edps although some other people have seen 9-10% gain (not sure what accounts for the discrepancy). Still, even if shards is a 10% gain, I find shell provides more than enough mitigation to make it an attractive and even preferred option.

The weird thing with cm wizards is we keep saying how sheet dps isn't what we should aim for so it's ok to accept 20-25% less sheet dps for more mitigation so we can run a full SNS build. But shards contribute so little dps while shell contributes a lot of mitigation. Why not chase 10-15%+ more sheet dps and swap shards for shell? Shell with higher sheet dps probably gives you more effective damage AND EHP.

The only time I really like running shards is if I hit 3.0 (with time stretch or through gear). With meteors, I definitely prefer shell.


Aph was using GC + CS and said he liked the results.

Shards just does so much damage its hard to give up, but I can see where you guys are coming from.
Reply Quote
Posts: 5,290
View profile
We have two questions to figure out:
1) How much effective damage does shards do? 5-10% sounds like the general consensus but that range is still pretty broad.
2) How much mitigation does shell offer? Is it more than 10%? (Aph's experience would suggest it's more than 15%).

With these answered, we can figure out if shards is the better choice over shell ... then whether that's still true at 3.0 attack speed. Then we can also consider what's the most cost effective balance to gear for :)


I won't be able to try till the morning but I am going to do some recorded runs killing ghom on mp 10 with using shocknadoshards, shocknadoshell, and shocknadoshell with GC instead.
Reply Quote
It doubles the HP of each DS cast. How is that anything other than doubling your EHP? Most incoming damage should be hitting the shell with your HP acting as a quick-filling buffer for when it breaks or a <20k hit comes in.
Reply Quote

Why not chase 10-15%+ more sheet dps and swap shards for shell? Shell with higher sheet dps probably gives you more effective damage AND EHP.


I think there are a couple reasons why people are feeling less and less the effect of Shards.

Their damage ceiling is getting higher due to higher CC and CD.

In May/June, SNS was the !@#$ because it was super viable with the gear available. We all geared for 35-40% CC, 2.3 APS and INT. Crit Dam did not matter at that point because those baseline stats were so much more important. Rings had max CC of 4.5, and max IAS of 7, so those baseline stats were godly at the time. SNS over vanilla CM/WW was a big DPS jump because the DPS ceilings were the same since crit dam wasn't a factor.

Now, people hit 50CC and 2.73APS pretty easily. Crit Dam is all over the place, and it raises the DPS ceiling by a big amount. Shards only procs only as fast as it refreshes AND the client responds. Let's say it only goes off every second. Shocking Aspect procs on crit, and with everyone hitting a much higher APS nowadays, and higher CC, SA procs more often WITH a higher damage ceiling which is why I think people are seeing less of a DPS impact of Shards over Shell, because Shocking Aspect is doing a bigger percentage of our overall damage.

So, just as an example, SNS back in May, the damage meter looked like this: 20% WW, 40% EB, 25% Shock, 15% Shards.

Now, with higher CC, higher APS, and higher Crit Dam, meters may look something like this:
20% WW, 45% EB, 30% Shock, 5% Shards.

These numbers aren't supported by calculations, I'm just using them as an illustration of how Shocking Aspect damage is outweighing Shardsmechanics.
Reply Quote
[quote]
Shards just does so much damage its hard to give up, but I can see where you guys are coming from.


Are you really sure of that?

I think it does a lot of damage Per Hit, but I think the overall damage it does compared to everything else isn't as big as you think.

It's limited by CM refreses, and client response. Shocking Aspect procs go off constantly without client/user interaction, i.e. zero lag response. Just look at a mob when you have twisters on it, it's constantly shocking. 35% weap damage X int multi X crit damage multi X passive multis is a huge number, way bigger than Shards imo.
Reply Quote
^ Wouldn't higher CC/APS attribute to casting more shards? And shards is a % of your dps, so even if you add CD, it will increase shards equally to the rest of the attacks?
Reply Quote
We have two questions to figure out:
1) How much effective damage does shards do? 5-10% sounds like the general consensus but that range is still pretty broad.
2) How much mitigation does shell offer? Is it more than 10%? (Aph's experience would suggest it's more than 15%).

With these answered, we can figure out if shards is the better choice over shell ... then whether that's still true at 3.0 attack speed. Then we can also consider what's the most cost effective balance to gear for :)


1) It has to be sim'd. And the sim has to take into account a lot of factors, a lot... and it has to take into account individual attributes.
2) This should be easy, if you use Kiebel's EHP calculator, take your EHP divided by your HP to come up with a multplier, then multiply it by 21K. CS is an absorb taken into account after your damage reductions take place. So the 21K shell EHP is different for everyone based on their gear.
Reply Quote
12/07/2012 02:13 PMPosted by Boozor
^ Wouldn't higher CC/APS attribute to casting more shards? And shards is a % of your dps, so even if you add CD, it will increase shards equally to the rest of the attacks?


It should, but I've observed it doesn't simply because the client doesn't respond as fast as it refreshes.

Also, Shocking Aspect is exponential in terms of DPS increase compared to Shards.

Shocking Aspect is based off attacks that crit, WW ticks are exponential in amount. Shards is only 1 attack.

So when you increase CC/APS, it exponentially increasing Shocking Aspect crits, but is only a static increase to Shards.
Reply Quote
12/07/2012 02:17 PMPosted by Junger
2) This should be easy, if you use Kiebel's EHP calculator, take your EHP divided by your HP to come up with a multplier, then multiply it by 21K. CS is an absorb taken into account after your damage reductions take place. So the 21K shell EHP is different for everyone based on their gear.
But the difference in 21k DS EHP and 10.5 DS EHP that you choose with the rune should probably end up as a 2:1 difference.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]