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@Osterus: It's the Echoing Fury that stuns Maghda because she's not immune to fear. The FS in that case just help keep King's minions off me so that I can keep her stunned.
@Jibikao The mana passives are good too -- though not as much because AC doesn't use as much mana as the bear builds. The fact that you can only have 3 blobs up at a time really does limit the amount of mana that you need, so something like FS is a good way to get something for free.
If you don't like FS, you could probably just run Blood Ritual in its place and do fine with it. I have tested both up to MP9 and, with how I am geared, it's kind of sixes which one is better. Because of my play style, I like the damage reduction from FS, and the 2k LoH I have means that I don't need the life regen from BR as much. Also, fetishes pair better with an EF or other CC procs.
But, an argument could be made for BR as well. Especially if you don't have quite as much LoH as I have, then BR might be a better choice.
First off, good job trying out a niche skill and stick to it, I respect people who enjoy the "fun factor" of the game.
Here are the thoughts:
1: As many people pointed out, what saved the day is obviously the high LOH proc from rain of toads/acid rain.
Personally I determine a skill is staple by simply removing it and ask myself whether it still works. For your build, removing AC will completely change the build dynamic, so at the end of the day, this is an AC build, while I highly suspect that BR will work better than FS.
2: I have been running EF for months, personally I find it is not the optimal choice for acid cloud
The damage range on EF is vastly lower than a LOH skorn, and AC cost a lot.
Secondly AC procs fear like crazy, even in solo game I find it annoying that monster keep running away from me and it is extremely inefficient. Yeah it does keep you alive since monster have less time hitting you, but you have a hard time of hitting them as well.
3: I think, the main goal for a "farming build" should be optimizing the kill time, so instead of stating that they "do real damage" I encourage you do the following:
start the game at MP10 "kill ghom"
Do 2 runs
one with FS and one with BR
if the one with FS shortens the kill time significantly, then your statement is true. if not, it is only wishful thinking.
MP10 ghom has 130-ish mil health and test out your kill time is the only way to determine whether a build is good or not.
I do use BR. It's my favorite Mana tactic of choice because I also get 1% regen. You are running a RoT build so mana isn't an issue. My build is mostly testing Firebats and Fetish. I like the theme and I really want to try Firebats more. I didn't know Firebats can proc even faster than RoT because channel spells ticks TWICE the attack speed.
I do like Fetish but they need to do more damage.
@DanSkyWalker: I tested both out on MP8 Ghom. I wanted a slightly lower MP level so that I could keep my pets and garg up full time and not have to kite at all.
In terms of kill time, It took about 3 minutes for both FS and BR. This doesn't surprise me at all because -- by the nature of the BR rune -- it can't possibly be shorter as long as I'm not running out of mana. However, there were some marked differences.
With the FS rune, I had to resummon my dogs and garg fewer times during the fight: 2 and 0 times vs. 3 and 1 times, respectively. This is because Ghom spent his time attacking my fetishes as opposed to my dogs -- something I've already realized about how the game AI works. Also, Ghom stayed in place a lot better with the fetishes -- something I also realized about how the game AI works. The fetishes path block monsters so that they don't move around as much.
As for the life regen with BR, it made very little difference. When you're taking hits of 4k at a time from ghom, ~450 life/sec isn't going to help much. This is also true, I think, of high MPs.
Also, the fetishes pair extremely well with an EF. Whether a skorn with high LoH would be better for an AC build... I can't say. Probably the damage would be slightly more. I have a non-LoH skorn on my enchantress, and that gives me about 10k more damage to equip it. Whether that would be worth it, considering the lower attack speed and reduced Crit vs. a 1-hand + mojo, is something I haven't fully tested. I know that I would miss the crowd control of the EF, at the very least. I personally don't mind taking a little longer to burn down monsters if it means I am safer and die less often.
I really don't think of AC + Fetishes as a niche build. The whole reason I came up with the build was that I was trying to find a way to add something to an already good build without the drawbacks of something like PTV. Granted, if you removed AC or RoT, the build doesn't work anymore. That's why it's a AC build. Despite the build diversity that WDs have, they basically only have 3 viable secondaries (ZB, SB, and AC) that don't require specialized cool-down reducing equipment. So, if you took away the secondary from ANY build, it wouldn't work. In that sense, I think that the FS is just a straight-up good passive to pair with an AC build, period. I would still love to see FS buffed to do a little more damage and have tiki and darts summon, but it's a good skill as is.
"the amount of damage that fetishes do" = non existent
Without them, you kill just as fast, which was shown by your results. So fetishes do real damage was only wishful thinking.
These are probably true. Fetishes keep you and your pets alive better.
For any resource intensive skills, especially acid cloud, what Skorn offers is not slightly more, the difference is night and day. That is before factoring in attack animation or mobility. Even so, I still strongly believe AC needs to be coupled with a heavy hitting weapon like Skorn.
I tried both, and Skorn is far superior in raw damage and kill time. Also a Skorn alone offers 300 critical damge, and 1600+LOH, you can either lose the LOH on other gears, and get higher AR/INT/CD etc, or you can keep the LOH you already have and achieve insane amount of LOH.
Also, just a thought, the odd deaths due to maniacs, reflect packs, and other difficult packs can be largely solved by spiritual vessel. It also give you higher SW up time, which increase your chance of survival too. Also helps you travel faster on the map.
First off, good job trying out a niche skill and stick to it, I respect people who enjoy the "fun factor" of the game.
Does fear proc on ghom?
I use the fun build in higher mp since they take me long enough to tell the difference for efficiency. If I last longer due to them not hitting me, I play in areas where I leverage on lasting longer. That to me is efficiency.
If you have a temperance, and vile ward, I suppose u can easily clear the content in mp0 already. Belt you can get one with Life% and resist all, and change to a better ones when you have the gold.
I have another alternative for you, which is by buying one goldskin and farm for more gold in nightmare mp10 with ferrets. Or just use your other characters to farm for your gears.
Thanks for the responses all!
I don't know if the fetish passive is optimal with an AC + RoT build and the high CC procs, like I have in my gear. I haven't found a passive that I like quite as much, but I think that arguments could be made for using the mana passives or SV (as Dan suggested above). I think that if they buffed the FS just a little more -- maybe a chance to proc Tikis and Torches with a little longer lifetime -- it would probably become a pillar passive for the build.
@Dan: I have also tried a skorn with AC. Like you said, it does hit harder. However, with the slower attack speed, I proc a lot less LoH (which is partially compensated by the higher LoH for a skorn) and it's harder to micro. I don't like it as much, but I think you could probably run an AC build with a Skorn. However, if someone is set on using a Skorn, I would argue that the mechanics of a bear build work much better with a Skorn. 5.9% LS with 1M crits is nice.
I want to thank OP for this post. This passive actually filled the last spot for my build and quickly became my favorite. I didn't know that it was buffed recently. I never liked bears. people say not to build attack speed, I stacked it. Procs on WDs were nerfed? I geared for proc effects next patch. I mainly just use ROT and just use AC as my "heal Button" or AOE stun. so I was not heavily reliant on mana regen and just steadily spammed ROT. The passive is actually fun and makes you tanky during solo play(which I do a lot of). Well, I play WD for the fun of it. even back in D2 I never made a hammerdin and usually just end up with bear druid summoner or something. some prefer to be time efficient but some just wants to be efficient with their fun. I personally like keeping the population as big as possible, and as long as possible.. XD
tl;dr thanks for the suggestion :D
Sycophants are an interesting choice to increase your overall damage.
But, in my opinion, may not be essential for every single build.
For instance, see this:
Ofc, different approaches, but what I can say is that I used both and in this moment the second looks for me more helpful.
It would be nice if they could be on it. Who knows a fourth passive skill ???
Edited by B4n1sH3r#1263 on 1/11/2013 5:57 AM PST
Nice idea on using Rot + Fetish Sycophants. If you have a fast attack speed, you may be casting till some 6-7 after some time. I started using this more Vision Quest and Pierce of Veil, and, with a mana regenerative mojo, your mana still comes up with an infinite RoT. Furthermore, if you add life on hit, for instance, with RoT you may gain considerable amounts of life, having a similar effect with Acid Cloud. In other words, RoT regenerates your mana, gives you life, may sustain higher damage and add pets for free !!! O.O Very nice !
Gratz about the idea of the post, defending these little quick and distractive pets, which makes the game more fun. When I had 6 or 7 in game, I started looking what they do, and I found that they hit and escape, what makes them survive more. Gratz for the developer who though on this too ! They make me laugh !
Edited by B4n1sH3r#1263 on 5/2/2013 9:09 AM PDT
I'm a believer in the Fetish Sychophant passive. Here is my version:
Procing the little fetish is paramount. The only way to do that is to use spells that proc the passive.
Other than that, nice to see them get the much needed love from the community.
Fetish sucks.. yes, you can try to make a build for it and watch them but their damage is pitiful and they die too quick against Elite that has DoT on the ground.. the kind of fight that you need the pets the most.
Who really needs Fetish for defense against Trash? If you do, check your Gear. Dogs and Garg are more than sufficient enough to be your meatshield.
Fetish's biggest problem is that Dogs are better at meatshield and Garg is better at doing damage. Fetish is neither.
Yes, Firebats' Plague, Vampire, CoB and Hungry can proc Fetish the fastest. Even faster than Rain of Toad. Direbats is horrible...
Edited by Jibikao#1131 on 5/2/2013 12:36 PM PDT
I was testing these guys out with a cloud of bat build on PTR but they did die really fast, i think i was playing MP 8 or 9, and i think it was 1 or 2 swings from a phase beast and they were dead :( I do however like to build up a huge army of them before entering a map lol
I was recently playing around with FS for my GF slot. I would agree with most here that while they don;t tack on a bunch of damage they are great at distracting and enabling you to live longer.
I switch between the 2 depending on what kind of party I happen to join. If we have a tank or 2 I go with GF for the extra damage(add soul harvest, 5600 INT and 247k dps). If the party is all ranged I switch to FS for the extra meatshields for all the ranged damage of the party.
I'm sure some of you will mock my build but corpse bomb is a HIGHLY underrated AOE, buffed it crits 500-800k to all in its radius, while small, you can aim it and it is instant damage, DoT is slow ya'll. My current gear allows 6 casts with full mana. Looking to get 1 or 2 more out of it eventually. As you can see I spend my time between 4/5 characters....
Edited by RHVfan#1399 on 5/3/2013 3:19 PM PDT
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