Diablo® III

Monster power XP needs to scale higher!

As Grimiku pointed out in the an [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004458205?page=3#47"]earlier post[/url], one of the things we want to avoid with the reward structure for Monster Power is creating a situation where players feel forced to run on the higher levels, even if they happen to feel more comfortable at somewhere between MP1 - MP3. Ideally, the added challenge should be the primary motivation for how you select your MP level, with the bonuses simply being a really cool perk that you get in return.

On the flip side, though, we know that lot players currently feel "forced" to run on the lower MP levels because it's more efficient to do so (especially if you're looking to farm XP). That's not a great situation either. So, while we don't want to change up the entire reward system for MP, we do agree that the XP bonuses could be more enticing at the top end, and we're looking to make some improvements.

I don't have a lot of details for you right now beyond that, but we've definitely heard your feedback and are trying to incorporate it in a meaningful way.


Challenge? Pfft. You can switch to a defensive setup and survive in MP10 for 1 million. Tedious sure, but not challenging. It's just beating on a sack of HP for a while.

How to fix MP in a few easy steps:

The bonus XP/gold/mf stacks multiplicatively and not additively with any other bonuses you have. Presently someone running around with a Radiant Star Ruby and a Hellfire ring gets 166% in MP 0 and 326% in MP10... but it takes far more than twice as long to kill in the latter. MF/GF is even worse, and the longer you play the less a proportionate benefit higher MPs are. These numbers are also before stacks, which boost the aforementioned numbers to 241% vs 401%... yet, it requires far more than 60% longer to kill in MP 10.
Reduce the HP scaling to something more sane, as the main reason higher MPs are inefficient is because it just takes too long to kill there. If this requires more damage, or better yet actual dynamic changes so it isn't just the same game with different numbers then so much the better.

Absolutely no one is going to buy into challenge for the sake of it (old Inferno should have shown you this) but many will if it is worth it. If the MP system were working correctly the optimal MP would be the hardest you could handle and not always 0 or 1 unless keyfarming. And the hardest you could handle would increase over time. That could actually work. It wouldn't be forcing people to go in high MP if they can't handle it as then they'd kill so slowly the lower MPs would be more efficient. However, if it is possible for the higher MPs to be efficient, then the system works as intended. Currently, they really can't for anyone.

Edit: Oh and take the monster density of Inferno and then double it.
Edited by Spectral#1342 on 12/19/2012 4:30 AM PST
Reply Quote
It may not be that extreme, but we certainly think that our original goal (and current goal, to be fair) of "don't create a reward system that forces players into the higher MP levels" may have been a little too successful.

While the goal is still a good one to keep, we're looking at ways to balance the reward structure better for the top end, specifically in terms of XP, so that players who want to play at the higher MP levels -- because that's the challenge level they enjoy -- don't feel super penalized for doing so.


The only thing Monster Power level is good for, is higher chance of getting Key's and Organs.

In my opion this game is more about rewards and achievements then the challenge.
And ofcourse to earn rewards and achievements there as to be some challenge, but if there is just challenge.. well whats the point?
I mean i cleared normal, hell en nightmare to get to Inferno, why? because the sence of achievement to be able to clear Inferno and ofcourse the rewards (itemlvl 63)

I think your vision would have worked out better with an extra difficulty mode after Inferno.
With each Act increases the difficulty, like the old days (only better worked out, and with the proper rewards that scale along with that, like chance to get Itemlvl64?).
I know i would have played that Mode just to get that sence of achievement i had when stepping for the first time in Inferno.

Dont get me wrong, i like a challenge but higher MP is more a time base challenge and like they say time is money/gold :)
Reply Quote
12/12/2012 08:42 AMPosted by Replay
It takes so long to reach Paragon 100 that I would really love to get all 5 classes to this point, but unfortunately, I don't see this happening with the current system.


Paragon 100 is something that should take years not months. It's their endgame material. Leveling all 5 classes to paragon 100 should be the final goal of the game. Why do you want them to shorten the games longevity? That's all you do by making things like this too easy to achieve.

I think that the MP's are fine as they are. They are meant as a bonus challenge once you've gotten the character where you want them to be. Just because Blizzard made MP10 doesn't mean you have to play there. If it's not efficient enough for you, find the MP that is. If it's MP0, so be it.
Reply Quote
I agree with the OP here.
Reply Quote
As Grimiku pointed out in the an [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004458205?page=3#47"]earlier post[/url], one of the things we want to avoid with the reward structure for Monster Power is creating a situation where players feel forced to run on the higher levels, even if they happen to feel more comfortable at somewhere between MP1 - MP3. Ideally, the added challenge should be the primary motivation for how you select your MP level, with the bonuses simply being a really cool perk that you get in return.

On the flip side, though, we know that lot players currently feel "forced" to run on the lower MP levels because it's more efficient to do so (especially if you're looking to farm XP). That's not a great situation either. So, while we don't want to change up the entire reward system for MP, we do agree that the XP bonuses could be more enticing at the top end, and we're looking to make some improvements.

I don't have a lot of details for you right now beyond that, but we've definitely heard your feedback and are trying to incorporate it in a meaningful way.


Developers didn't want to force anyone to play higher mp, and feel that it's mandatory, but they clearly overdone it and achieved a lost cause result - noone but few plays them unless you're farming for the keys, or going for uber run. The "play only for challenge" philosophy obviously doesn't work and is unfair - if you're increasing mob hp and damage drastically, you should also more reasonable scale that with more experience gain, even more magic and gold find. You shouldn't be greatly PUNISHED for playing MORE DIFFICULT game, it makes absolutely no sense at all.

Let's see how it's working right now:

http://s9.postimage.org/uw1l804xb/image.png

My proposition is to put a different values in those charts, it's really about time to adjust them:

xp - 30% (mp1) 60% 90% 120% 150% 180% 210% 240% 270% 300% (mp10)
magic find - 35% (mp1) 70% 105% 135% 170% 205% 240% 275% 320% 355% (mp10)
gold find - 35% (mp1) 70% 105% 135% 170% 205% 240% 275% 320% 355% (mp10)
bonus item, monster health and damage - no changes


edit: also, what would you do to improve other classes, useless skills and passives? i've wrote a topic regarding this here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7319952329

if you're interested in fixing item diversity problem, meaning - if you want best 2h, in 9 of 10 instances you'll end up with Skorn or - if you're DH - Manticore, best bracers - Lacuni, and so on, please read here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004696112 Thanks!
Edited by fhantomPL#1840 on 12/20/2012 6:12 AM PST
Reply Quote
The problem isnt really MP bonuses. Especially running act 3 over and over. the problem is monster density. Its only logical to do act 3 because of it. If the other acts had the same monster density, there would be much more variety and more options
Reply Quote
I think making a plvl should also give 3% XP in addition to 3% MF/GF
Reply Quote
MPX = Y% Increased HP and Z% Increased Damage so increased XP% should be Y+Z

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Acronyms and their meaning: http://us.battle.net/d3/en-us/forum/topic/7004698754
The new way of making every Legendary viable: http://us.battle.net/d3/en-us/forum/topic/7199033719
Idea: White/Blue Items and Crafting Fix: http://us.battle.net/d3/en-us/forum/topic/7167576791
Monk Build: The Dual Wielded Lawn Mower: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7415641623
Reply Quote
12/19/2012 08:19 AMPosted by eXawSt
The problem isnt really MP bonuses. Especially running act 3 over and over. the problem is monster density. Its only logical to do act 3 because of it. If the other acts had the same monster density, there would be much more variety and more options


It's both. MP was meant to create a sort of progression where there's both more risk and more rewards. Instead you have to choose between interesting gameplay and productive gameplay. You can't have both.

Endless Act 3 spam = monster density.

Make higher MPs valuable, and greatly increase monster density = more areas viable on more settings. Exponentially more things worth playing.

The item overcentralization thing is also a big problem, and I should really get around to making my 12 hour mega post on that but can't be bothered, too damn busy.
Reply Quote
12/18/2012 06:16 PMPosted by Lylirra
While the goal is still a good one to keep, we're looking at ways to balance the reward structure better for the top end, specifically in terms of XP, so that players who want to play at the higher MP levels -- because that's the challenge level they enjoy -- don't feel super penalized for doing so.


Could you please show me one (and I mean even one, single) player that farmed more legendaries and XP while doing MP10 that while doing A3MP0 runs for the same amount of time?

Guys, noone plays high MPs because the MP system you introduced makes farming MP0 the best way to get loot and gain XP.

That way players are forced NOT TO take on challenge of higher and higher MP, but to mindlessly play on the lowest difficulty setting.

I absolutely, utterly DO NOT understand it? How come a company that used to reward BEST players (WoW - PvP gear for Arena rating, epic raid gear for killing heroic raid bosses) now reward the ones that do not have to have any kind of skill, just lots of free time and a steady supply of coffee or energy drinks? I believe it must be absolutely boring to run around MP0 with 200K dps.
Edited by entropus#2639 on 12/19/2012 8:49 AM PST
Reply Quote
I absolutely, utterly DO NOT understand it? How come a company that used to reward BEST players (WoW - PvP gear for Arena rating, epic raid gear for killing heroic raid bosses) now reward the ones that do not have to have any kind of skill, just lots of free time and a steady supply of coffee or energy drinks? I believe it must be absolutely boring to run around MP0 with 200K dps.


This is not world of warcraft and or a competition. And skill level in this game is even less meaningful than in wow. Dual wielding credit cards is the best skill you can have. If you have that and are not a complete idiot, you can do MP10.


I lol'ed ;D

Then I serioused :(

Well, mabye the whole Big Evil Blizzard Scheme could be summed up just like you said.

So sad. There's no epic journey of killing bigger and bigger demons ahead of my monk. There's just a farming job of a mindless peon...
Edited by entropus#2639 on 12/19/2012 9:14 AM PST
Reply Quote
It takes so long to reach Paragon 100 that I would really love to get all 5 classes to this point, but unfortunately, I don't see this happening with the current system.


Paragon 100 is something that should take years not months. It's their endgame material. Leveling all 5 classes to paragon 100 should be the final goal of the game. Why do you want them to shorten the games longevity? That's all you do by making things like this too easy to achieve.


The problem with this logic is the majority of people will not spend years of their time to obtain the "endgame" Paragon 100. The mass majority of people will simply quit and move to a new game because years is simply an unobtainable goal for most people.

I think in reality Blizzard devs wants the average Diablo 3 fan to use all 5 classes and have fun with the game, which is what my goal is as well. When a person gets home from work or school they simply pick 1 of the 5 classes to play for that time and simply have fun with it.
Except now this Paragon system has been introduced and now I'm hooked on getting to 100 with it, which takes much too long for what it is and it's preventing me from starting another class or choosing a different class on different days of the week. I guess what I'm saying is striving for this goal is actually taking away the fun and diversity of this game, but I also don't wanna quit until I have achieved the goal of 100.

The MF and GF rewards are fine just the way they are. I feel this doesn't need any change to the current system. However, the amount of XP gained in higher MPs does not justify the extended time it takes to kill mobs and elites which is the reason the mass majority of people are running MP0 and MP1

If monster density for other acts/areas cannot be changed then hopefully it can be higher XP gain so it amounts to the same for Act 3 Alkaiser run so I can run other areas as well.

I know this is a tough goose to cook, but hopefully the system can be improved and thanks to the CMs for answering and listening in this thread :)
Edited by Replay#1910 on 12/19/2012 10:49 AM PST
Reply Quote
Great to see that Blizzard finally decided to buff up the bonus of high mp runs.

Currently, I only ran mp10 to ensure uber boss drops. To farm at mp10 or mp9 is ridiculous and honestly stupid considering the pathetic exp and mf bonus at that level while running mp1-3 gives much higher efficiency.

Even for those with godly good gears, runnning mp10 is not really smart. I mean, yes, it is a challenge. You don't challenge yourself very minute. I soloed uber boss mp10 once, and that was it.

So at least make the mp9 and mp10 games more rewarding, scale up the mf and xp bonus in proportion with the monster hp and damage. I don't mind increasing the damage on high mps to make it more challenge.
Reply Quote
First of all, the exp and bonus should be scaled to the difficulty of mp levels.
Current reward for running mp9 and mp10 are extremely pathetic should be increased exponentially.

Second of all, blizzard should consider increasing the cap of NV stacks with mp levels. Let's say, at mp0 , NV cap is 5, then each mp level grants an extra NV stack. So at mp10, players should be able to stack upto 15 NV stacks.

In this way, low mps are still very attractive and people are not forced to run mp10s, but for those who can run mp9 and mp10, it will be a better option.
Reply Quote
12/18/2012 06:16 PMPosted by Lylirra
It seems like you were so worried about people feeling forced to run high MPs that you went way too far the other way and now we're all forced to run lower MPs.


...

While the goal is still a good one to keep, we're looking at ways to balance the reward structure better for the top end, specifically in terms of XP, so that players who want to play at the higher MP levels -- because that's the challenge level they enjoy -- don't feel super penalized for doing so.


I don't think it's working quite as intended. I got to MP10, had no problems, went back to mp0. Yes, the monsters are harder but once you can manage them there is almost zero incentive. The fights take entirely too long for what seems like identical drops compared to mp0. The only use the high MP has is for key drops and infernal machine drops.

My suggestion? More players = Better items (promotes team play), higher mp = better items (push to challenge the hardest). Better items does NOT mean higher magic find - it means items that drop will more likely have higher damage and more desirable stats than at the lesser difficulties.

Currently there is zero incentive to play with other players and virtually no incentive to use the higher MPs.
Reply Quote
12/18/2012 05:09 PMPosted by Lylirra
we do agree that the XP bonuses could be more enticing at the top end, and we're looking to make some improvements


Please do this.
Reply Quote
As Grimiku pointed out in the an [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004458205?page=3#47"]earlier post[/url], one of the things we want to avoid with the reward structure for Monster Power is creating a situation where players feel forced to run on the higher levels, even if they happen to feel more comfortable at somewhere between MP1 - MP3. Ideally, the added challenge should be the primary motivation for how you select your MP level, with the bonuses simply being a really cool perk that you get in return.

On the flip side, though, we know that lot players currently feel "forced" to run on the lower MP levels because it's more efficient to do so (especially if you're looking to farm XP). That's not a great situation either. So, while we don't want to change up the entire reward system for MP, we do agree that the XP bonuses could be more enticing at the top end, and we're looking to make some improvements.

I don't have a lot of details for you right now beyond that, but we've definitely heard your feedback and are trying to incorporate it in a meaningful way.


best solution imo is to make the XP gained dependent on paragon lvl and MP lvl
something like the way D2 works but adjusted for the MP lvls so that a higher MP means that the xp penalties are applied at higher paragon lvls

http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/basics/experience.shtml

by adding Xp penalties u achieve both points
the lower paragon lvls wouldn't be affected - here are the large majority of players and here we can farm Xp on what Mp we like
after a certain point (lvl 50 or 60) Xp penalties are gradually applied for the lower MP lvls so that we need to go up in MP to be efficient - this solve the second problem
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]