Diablo® III

Attack Speed vs Mana Usage (Bears Example)

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Hi Gotcha and welcome to the WD clan.

I took a look at your gear and while you have 900 or so life on hit you don't have a good skill to proc it.

The best skills we have to proc life on hit are Rain of Toads, and Acid Cloud. All our other skills e.g. bears, spiders, Zdogs are not very efficient at creating a LoH proc.

So I would suggest you mix in some Acid Cloud into your skill setup and you should start seeing your LoH kicking in. The way you are running now you might need 3000 or 4000 LoH to really see a benefit from it.
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Spiders proc loh at 8% per spider per attack.
First, how do I know that? A thread explaining each skill's LoH proc rate:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7166796695

If they average 9 attacks per jar, you're getting about 72% LoH over about 3 seconds from one jar, or perhaps 72/3 = 24% per second per jar. Depending on your attack speed, you can have anywhere from 3 to 6+ jars out at a time.

Compared to Acid Rain and RoT, which give you both instant and DoT LoH, spiders don't help for those moments when you really need the LoH, e.g. something big hit you and you need to get back to full HP asap, unless you already have a lot of spider jars going (for instance at 2.0+ aps, but then you'd not be using bears)
Edited by MCP#1477 on 12/13/2012 9:24 AM PST
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Hi guys and TY for the comments. I did not mean to hijack the trhead to a LOH issue and am sorry to the thread poster for this.

I only have 900ish since the 400 from pants was actually about worthless where the 900ish did seem to help. I have not played my WD below MP5. I went from MP 10 building it to MP 5 once I hit inferno to try and get better with skills over just walking thru everything. I have not played much with toads. I am, however, getting better at spiders and casting placement around the battles yet I seem to still need the LOH yet thats probably since I like to stand around a battle area more then kiting a lot yet I am sure I will work it out and figure out something that works. I just see so many using sojs on higher MP and even though the damage is a tad better then a good ring rare ring in general I find the LOH goes further for me then the added damage yet I am still in a lot of testing modes on the MP-5 - 7 range where I am trying to work out the differences with the build in killing time and damage mitigation. I will test out toads a little and see where that takes me yet it may be just that I have to completely change my playing style and kite much more then I would like. I am just used to face tank rolls on my monk even on the top MP lvls thats all yet I have to think LOH will play a role in PVP so I was trying to work it into the build for some sustain.

For a side note: burning dogs seem to make a huge amount of difference (I.E. LOH) then having Garg out. Its super noticable so I am still in testing mode xD. acid rain and all is out I have no mana when using that with bears in general so spiders are staying in my build I think for now.

TY all for the kind help. Sorry to hijack the thread with the LOH issue over the mana issue procs vs AS.
Edited by Gotcha#1167 on 12/13/2012 9:59 AM PST
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12/13/2012 08:09 AMPosted by Gotcha
Maybe I am just to new to the build yet 3 percent LS does not seem like just enough on a stand alone to save you at medium and higher lvl MP's unless you have some LOH tied in in the build


3% LS is plenty for any MP levels for bear builds. Bear's proc rate is so bad that running with LoH really isnt that beneficial with bear casting. It's almost a wasted affix if you are running bears as your primary source of damage. You will find a lot more success with bear spamming on upper MP levels by getting a mojo that has mana regen and bear reduction as well as switching over to a mana regen helm. That way, when you proc VQ with spidys, it boosts your mana regen considerably.

PS Nice MCK btw. I want :)
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TY I do have a mana reg helm I found I used it at the start yet I get a little carried away with CC that I sorta started using the CC one. I also have a weak 6 bear SOJ so I will test that combo later. Its taken a long time to get gears for this build yet I have to say its the funnest build since it keeps your attention on the screen better then face tanking everything.

Thanks for all the help all I will continue to test yet I am sold on the bears/spidys. They seem to work wonders once you get the hang of the casting and placement.

Thanks a million
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VQ and mana regen are an AS using WD's best friend. If you get enough regen going, VQ will always keep you from going OOM. I only go OOM if I stand and facetank something that I wasn't in any danger of getting killed by anyway, like an easy elite with extra health. If you have high AS you should use a primary, and if you use a primary you should use VQ. I choose toads over spiders for the LoH, and I throw in locusts with devouring to start every fight. Locusts are awesome because they spread as you are spamming bears, constantly giving you that 37 mana.

SoJ with ZC reduction and Zuni SoS with CC, max mana, and ZC reduction are on my radar.

Edit: Also, the best advice I can give WDs who haven't used bears for hundreds of hours, always hug walls. Whenever you run around stay by a wall or a large object. It just makes things so much easier when you are already in a good position to line your bears up.
Edited by MikeHoncho#1169 on 12/13/2012 10:34 AM PST
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i totally agree with OP. i've never been a big fan of attack speed and focused more on my other stats. with my set up now i can spam 18 sets of bears(as 1.2 for weapon only) without even using widowmakers or the mana per kill bonus and it feels comfortable with my play style. the one thing that would be nice is to get a faster cast animation and would probably help me out on higher mps but it allways seem to take away from the bear damage in order to get it done faster so im not sure if the trade off is worth it for me
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12/12/2012 12:26 PMPosted by skywalkerfx
The question you really need to ask is, "Can my build support additional attack speed with mana?"


agree 100%. this is how i look at attack speed. props to you.

on a side note, some of the big dogs on this board need to read this post and learn from it.
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12/13/2012 10:53 AMPosted by Nerzaa
on a side note, some of the big dogs on this board need to read this post and learn from it.


No matter what you say, we will continue to make fun of your slow attack speed Nerzaa ;)
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12/13/2012 11:32 AMPosted by ofgortens
No matter what you say, we will continue to make fun of your slow attack speed Nerzaa ;)


do you realize what you sound like? oh well, kind of expected i guess.
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Oh brother.. Here we go again. You do realize that this thread was made because of you, right Nerzaa? If not, lol. I retract my statement considering this thread is very helpful to a lot of people.

It's all gravy if you're content with yourself. Don't worry about trying to progress considering your contentment. Maybe one day you'll try to add some AS and use Widowmakers instead of Zrush. But I do wish you nothing but the best.
Edited by SunTzu#1166 on 12/13/2012 12:19 PM PST
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Oh brother.. Here we go again. You do realize that this thread was made because of you, right Nerzaa? If not, lol. I retract my statement considering this thread is very helpful to a lot of people.

It's all gravy if you're content with yourself. Don't worry about trying to progress considering your contentment. Maybe one day you'll try to add some AS and use Widowmakers instead of Zrush. But I do wish you nothing but the best.


how about re-read this thread especially the following sentence and understand what it actually means.

"Can my build support additional attack speed with mana?"

and just for laughs: one day you will realize having widowmakers/vq eating 2 slots is a crime for wd. this is from someone who played chance on hit stinker/burning dogs/spider queen/rot build before the 1st A2 dmg nerf and the old 4 piece regen acid/bear vq. you probably have no idea what i am talking bout.

nxt time, mind your own business please. no one ever mentioned ur name.
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Without PtV, I have no problem with Mana. But once I use PtV, I find that I can't sustain Mana as well. However the DPS from PtV is too good to pass. I have tried various skills in the 4th slot to get back Mana but so far nothing works really well. Halp !

Thanks :)
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OP

+1 because I agree.
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FINALLY somebody understands the WD. Seriously, I'm so tired of Pierce the Veil WDs, no mana regen, thinking that they're good just cuz they have 175-200k DPS. And BTW they spent like 50% more gold than I did on their gear as well, due to trifecta rings etc.
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PtV doesn't increase your DPS, it increases the damage you do before you run out of mana; same damage shorter time to do it. If fights don't last longer than that, then you're good. Once they do, you've failed in choosing PtV. I could see giving up 30% of your defense for 20% more DPS, that I could see. But mana IS DPS, so I don't understand PtV. Maybe for PVP it may work if fights are as short as D2 fights.

Oh also, PtV is good for people who want to go in do damage fast, then go sit in the corner and recuperate. But if you can stand toe to toe with mobs, then no point.
Edited by PackersFTW#1402 on 1/8/2013 11:27 PM PST
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Yup op is right having Ias is good provided u can support the mana regen ..even at 2.02 aps I can support infinite bears at mp10 when I replace my litany with a -10. Zb reduction soj
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01/09/2013 01:12 AMPosted by SweetLove
Yup op is right having Ias is good provided u can support the mana regen ..even at 2.02 aps I can support infinite bears at mp10 when I replace my litany with a -10. Zb reduction soj


Absolutely no way you're doing infinite bears at 2 AS. I have 102 mana regen AND Blood Ritual, only 1.55 AS, and I can't do infinite, not even close (12 casts til OOM). And when I do higher MPs/ubers, I use Vision Quest on top of that, so I end up having 132 mana regen while fighting, and I STILL can't do infinite bears (but it's good enough).

I'd need to add some reduction to bears, then run VQ, BR, and SA as my passives to basically be infinite probably. But again, this is with 1.55 AS.

I point this out because so many WDs claim they don't have mana problems when they really do. If I have problems with 1.55 AS, 2-3 mana passives, and 100+ mana regen from gear, then how don't you and all the other WDs with less mana regen than me?
Edited by PackersFTW#1402 on 1/11/2013 12:56 PM PST
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01/11/2013 12:56 PMPosted by PackersFTW
I point this out because so many WDs claim they don't have mana problems when they really do. If I have problems with 1.55 AS, 2-3 mana passives, and 100+ mana regen from gear, then how don't you and all the other WDs with less mana regen than me?


Gotta give this a free bump
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01/11/2013 12:56 PMPosted by PackersFTW
Yup op is right having Ias is good provided u can support the mana regen ..even at 2.02 aps I can support infinite bears at mp10 when I replace my litany with a -10. Zb reduction soj


Absolutely no way you're doing infinite bears at 2 AS. I have 102 mana regen AND Blood Ritual, only 1.55 AS, and I can't do infinite, not even close (12 casts til OOM). And when I do higher MPs/ubers, I use Vision Quest on top of that, so I end up having 132 mana regen while fighting, and I STILL can't do infinite bears (but it's good enough).

I'd need to add some reduction to bears, then run VQ, BR, and SA as my passives to basically be infinite probably. But again, this is with 1.55 AS.

I point this out because so many WDs claim they don't have mana problems when they really do. If I have problems with 1.55 AS, 2-3 mana passives, and 100+ mana regen from gear, then how don't you and all the other WDs with less mana regen than me?


This.
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