Diablo® III

Anybody else gear with DPS:EHP ratio in mind?

Just note that the fixes to RD is purely to do with pet damage and RD minions -- it does not affect RD elite packs or RD champion monsters.

Personally, I hope that Blizz does not yield to the masses in their calls for a massive RD nerf. I think it's great the way that it is. It's the best way to keep people honest in terms of paying attention to dps, mitigation and sustain.

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Now, on with the DPS/EHP discussions. I find it interesting that Saberfenix wades into this debate with his points from above -- while he may have some valid points, I think it may be worth pointing out that he is commenting as a barb, and I don't see a monk on his profile at all. The struggles and limitations that a monk faces is quite different from that of a monk - and the chief one that I am seeing is that they have access to at least one more source for LS (namely the belt) than we do, so his solution of finding more LS is easier said than done for a monk, who often has to sacrifice DPS for LS (not to mention huge costs for a semi-powerful LS weapon).

I think Piffle stated earlier in this thread that he wishes to gear for 95% of the game and not 5%. I respect his opinion and it makes some sense. But I also believe that RD packs come more often than 5% of the elite/champion packs that I come across -- I would probably say that about 20%-25% of the monster packs that I come across contain some form of RD in their combination of affixes. I still maintain that if our EHP isn't strong enough, then 3 or 4 big crits on these monsters can kill us before our sustain can have anything to say about that - this becomes more important when a monster's health can outlast our serenity window. RD is the big equalizer that forces us to build a balanced toon if we have any hope of comfortably moving up the ranks (for those of us who feel compelled to do so) -- this is something I think scrapz has alluded to earlier as well.

While I may be coming around in terms of not looking at DPS:EHP as a fixed ratio, I think that the general point that I want to underscore in this thread that it is important to look at where our EHP is relative to our DPS output (whether we track it via paper DPS or true DPS) if our goal is to move up MP levels, and to build a balanced monk throughout. To borrow something that Raahl posted in his comment:

12/13/2012 02:57 AMPosted by LordRaahl
10:1 is just a guideline for balance, not a gospel.

Perhaps we could do the same with DPS:EHP. But as Vrkhyz also mentions, paper DPS is not nearly as useful as true DPS, as measured in Azmodan tests. Likewise, including LS figures into the equation would be interesting too (which has been mentioned in a related thread too). This is something I'd like to do some testing for myself (although i don't nearly have enough funds to actually carry out tests myself).

That's what I have to say about this subject so far. More discussion always welcome. :)
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 12/13/2012 7:46 AM PST
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Just note that the fixes to RD is purely to do with pet damage and RD minions -- it does not affect RD elite packs or RD champion monsters.

Personally, I hope that Blizz does not yield to the masses in their calls for a massive RD nerf. I think it's great the way that it is. It's the best way to keep people honest in terms of paying attention to dps, mitigation and sustain.


I really don't care, actually i want bliz to yield to the nerf.

If people start building more glass cannons, then people that build more balanced will have more less an edge in PVP --- unless PVP is really a one shot/ done deal.
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Just note that the fixes to RD is purely to do with pet damage and RD minions -- it does not affect RD elite packs or RD champion monsters.

Personally, I hope that Blizz does not yield to the masses in their calls for a massive RD nerf. I think it's great the way that it is. It's the best way to keep people honest in terms of paying attention to dps, mitigation and sustain.


I really don't care, actually i want bliz to yield to the nerf.

If people start building more glass cannons, then people that build more balanced will have more less an edge in PVP --- unless PVP is really a one shot/ done deal.


Generally I agree. RD presents a challange to gear around. I really don't want the, to give us full life steal against Health Link creatures because that's what really gives Health Link it's bite. The interaction between the two is also interesting and challenging, so I'd hope they'd keep it the way it is.

(However, I can tell you that they probably need to do something about RD and pet damage. That really should reflect back at the pets themselves. Playing a Witchdoctor, it's annoying as hell to have your dogs and zombie go run off and attack a pack of RD monsters and then die. It's not like you can tell them to heel.)
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(However, I can tell you that they probably need to do something about RD and pet damage. That really should reflect back at the pets themselves. Playing a Witchdoctor, it's annoying as hell to have your dogs and zombie go run off and attack a pack of RD monsters and then die. It's not like you can tell them to heel.)

And come to think of it, they may want to consider reducing the damage relfected back from ranged (non-melee) classes. They don't have the benefit of the 30% melee reduction that we and barbs do, so in some ways, it's not fair that they get the same amount of damage reflected back to them. But this is a monk forum and I don't want to argue for the sake of other classes here. :)

On with the show...
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Just note that the fixes to RD is purely to do with pet damage and RD minions -- it does not affect RD elite packs or RD champion monsters.

Personally, I hope that Blizz does not yield to the masses in their calls for a massive RD nerf. I think it's great the way that it is. It's the best way to keep people honest in terms of paying attention to dps, mitigation and sustain.

This isn't true, and if you had read the link Tarzan posted, you'd see that they are reducing the amount of dmg RD does.


2) After seeing a number of posts from players about RD dealing what they felt to be TOO much damage (especially from minions), we did some additional testing and discovered that Rare minions with the affix were in fact doing more damage than intended. This is an issue we have scheduled to fix in an upcoming patch.


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I think Piffle stated earlier in this thread that he wishes to gear for 95% of the game and not 5%. I respect his opinion and it makes some sense. But I also believe that RD packs come more often than 5% of the elite/champion packs that I come across -- I would probably say that about 20%-25% of the monster packs that I come across contain some form of RD in their combination of affixes. I still maintain that if our EHP isn't strong enough, then 3 or 4 big crits on these monsters can kill us before our sustain can have anything to say about that - this becomes more important when a monster's health can outlast our serenity window. RD is the big equalizer that forces us to build a balanced toon if we have any hope of comfortably moving up the ranks (for those of us who feel compelled to do so) -- this is something I think scrapz has alluded to earlier as well.

Unless the amount of damage from RD is killing you faster than you can react, then there is no magical ratio you should be searching for. As Vrk noted in your RD thread, either you are healing more damage than you are taking or you're not.

If you're healing more damage than you are taking, then it doesn't matter what your EH is, you're OK.

If you're not healing more damage than you are taking, you simply need to make sure you're not killing yourself before you can react. Because regardless of how much EH you have at that point, you're going to have to back off and wait for CDs (well, assuming a long enough fight, at any rate).


While I may be coming around in terms of not looking at DPS:EHP as a fixed ratio, I think that the general point that I want to underscore in this thread that it is important to look at where our EHP is relative to our DPS output (whether we track it via paper DPS or true DPS) if our goal is to move up MP levels, and to build a balanced monk throughout. To borrow something that Raahl posted in his comment:

12/13/2012 02:57 AMPosted by LordRaahl
10:1 is just a guideline for balance, not a gospel.

Perhaps we could do the same with DPS:EHP. But as Vrkhyz also mentions, paper DPS is not nearly as useful as true DPS, as measured in Azmodan tests. Likewise, including LS figures into the equation would be interesting too (which has been mentioned in a related thread too). This is something I'd like to do some testing for myself (although i don't nearly have enough funds to actually carry out tests myself).

That's what I have to say about this subject so far. More discussion always welcome. :)

I just don't see how DPS and EH are tied together. Maybe you want to tie sustain and EH together and that would make a little more sense.

edit: I just keep coming back to what everyone has said about EH all along - you need enough to survive, and that's it. Once you can survive in MP 10, do you really need MORE EH? Doesn't it stop being helpful?

Let's just say, hypothetically speaking, that with 1 million EH you have enough EH that you can survive multiple hits in MP 10 for long enough that your sustain can kick in and heal you (or that you can use Serenity etc). Well, at that point, does it really make sense to add more EH? What are you actually gaining from more EH at that point? The ability to watch TV while you fight instead of having to pay attention? At that point, don't you benefit more from DPS and possibly extra sustain?

An actual example:
With 2 lifesteal weapons, I can basically facetank MP 8. Now I realize that MP 8 is not MP 10, but for the sake of the point I'm trying to prove, let's pretend MP 8 is as high as it goes.

With 2 lifesteal weapons and the amount of EH I have, I don't have to move out of Desecrator pools or out of Plagued or worry about Reflect Damage mobs or any of that crap. I just facetank and the amount of sustain/EH I have takes care of it. I can do Ubers on MP 8 without using Serenity once.

So what do I gain from adding EH in that case? Anything? Am I just better off adding DPS? Even if this ruins the 'ratio' that we've come up with?

****** OBVIOUSLY THIS IS NOT TALKING ABOUT PVP ********
Edited by Piffle#1874 on 12/13/2012 9:27 AM PST
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high dps means bigger lifesteal, and that in itself is tied to EH.
Everything is connected, young one. ;)

Health Globe Bonus is ALSO EHP!
so is life-per-kill and/or pick-up radius. ;D
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high dps means bigger lifesteal, and that in itself is tied to EH.
Everything is connected, young one. ;)

Health Globe Bonus is ALSO EHP!
so is life-per-kill and/or pick-up radius. ;D

Those are sustain, and, I would argue, different from EH.
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@Piffle: I think DPS and EH are tied together in some fashion, although it's relative to the level you're playing on. I look at it like this: I can make my monk more glassy by increasing his DPS at the expense of his EH, but I will likely get to a point where I get one-shot before the mobs do. If that's true, I've pushed too far in that direction. It's harder to push too far in the other direction, but it must be possible: imagining sacrificing so much DPS that you've extended the elite fights to the point that certain affixes will eventually kill you. Also, boredom :)

@Demiwraith: I always thought Health Link's bite was the ability to keep three or four mobs in action until they all drop dead. Mobs don't do less damage as they take damage, so there's value in killing off the weakest one first; if the pack has HL, you can't do that. That said, I have no LS gear *sniff* although I've vendored plenty of Barb-only LS belts *grr*.
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This isn't true, and if you had read the link Tarzan posted, you'd see that they are reducing the amount of dmg RD does.

2) After seeing a number of posts from players about RD dealing what they felt to be TOO much damage (especially from minions), we did some additional testing and discovered that Rare minions with the affix were in fact doing more damage than intended. This is an issue we have scheduled to fix in an upcoming patch.


Since you quoted that part, that is the exact part that I'm referring to. Their tests showed that RD minions were doing more damage than intended, but did not make any reference to nerfing RD as a whole. Unless I'm missing something.

12/13/2012 09:21 AMPosted by Piffle
I just don't see how DPS and EH are tied together. Maybe you want to tie sustain and EH together and that would make a little more sense.

I think this is where we differ in our gearing strategies. Your 95%/5% comment clearly states that you are gearing for the majority of events and you will adapt your gear (like swapping out one weapon for more LS) and playstyle accordingly to accommodate the other 5% (presumably referring to RD packs). So in other words, it seems that you don't want to gear to counter the RD affix... which is your prerogative. In effect, your choice is to prioritize sustain over EHP at this point.

For me, I would like to strive for goals that my gear can counter all of the affixes that we come across. I personally don't subscribe to that 95/5 assertion and posited that ~20% of the elite/champion packs we come across have some form of RD. And when it comes to RD packs, we have 20% of our damage dealt reflected back to us (although that seems to be a subject of debate, as some others seem to think it is actually 10%, but whatever), so if we end up doing massive crits consecutively, that damage will kill us before our sustain will have a chance to do anything with it if we don't have enough EHP to survive it. So in a way, EHP does factor in on some level.

I have yet to do the math on this, but I would suspect that having 400K EHP and 200K DPS (unbuffed) will not jive well when dealing with RD packs for that reason, no matter how much sustain you have. Again, I haven't done the math but I am working off of a strong hunch. I do believe that one's EHP levels may limit one's DPS progress if that is one's goal in the game.

So yes, my original hypothesis of looking only at DPS and EHP may not be correct in that it is too limiting. So even if I expand the criteria to include sustain, it does not necessarily wipe out the relationship between DPS and EHP completely.

EDIT: i posted this before your most recent edit, Piffle. But I'll let these points stand for now. :)
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 12/13/2012 9:45 AM PST
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"We did some additional testing and discovered that Rare minions with the affix were in fact doing more damage than intended." -------> "This is an issue we have scheduled to fix in an upcoming patch. "

Translation - rare minions deal more damage with RD than they are supposed to. We are nerfing the amount of damage they deal with RD in an upcoming patch.


I think this is where we differ in our gearing strategies. Your 95%/5% comment clearly states that you are gearing for the majority of events and you will adapt your gear (like swapping out one weapon for more LS) and playstyle accordingly to accommodate the other 5% (presumably referring to RD packs). So in other words, it seems that you don't want to gear to counter the RD affix... which is your prerogative. In effect, your choice is to prioritize sustain over EHP at this point.

Well, first let me state that I don't actually carry a second LS weapon with me, and when I run into a RD pack on MP 8 whilst using but a single LS weapon, I simply back out when my health is low and wait for CDs. Is it ideal? No. But given that I'm only ever doing Key Runs or Ubers on that level of MP, the amount of packs I run into with RD isn't that much. I'd much rather wait a couple seconds / have to pay attention to a pack fight here and there than lose out on the extra DPS for the entire rest of my play time.

I prioritize sustain over EH because once I have enough EH, I don't need anymore. What I need more of is DPS and/or sustain.


For me, I would like to strive for goals that my gear can counter all of the affixes that we come across. I personally don't subscribe to that 95/5 assertion and posited that ~20% of the elite/champion packs we come across have some form of RD. And when it comes to RD packs, we have 20% of our damage dealt reflected back to us (although that seems to be a subject of debate, as some others seem to think it is actually 10%, but whatever), so if we end up doing massive crits consecutively, that damage will kill us before our sustain will have a chance to do anything with it if we don't have enough EHP to survive it. So in a way, EHP does factor in on some level.

Right. As I said, you need enough EH that you don't die before your sustain/reactions take over and you don't need anymore.
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Let's just say, hypothetically speaking, that with 1 million EH you have enough EH that you can survive multiple hits in MP 10 for long enough that your sustain can kick in and heal you (or that you can use Serenity etc). Well, at that point, does it really make sense to add more EH? What are you actually gaining from more EH at that point? The ability to watch TV while you fight instead of having to pay attention? At that point, don't you benefit more from DPS and possibly extra sustain?

LOL. Love your comments, dude.

I think the main gist of this is to counter the neverending / blind quest for moar DPS. Many folks in these forums are upgrading and building glass cannon monks with great DPS but little or no EHP and expect sustain to rescue them from the RD abyss. If your goal is strictly to defeat MP10 with the DPS you have, then yes... I would agree. Upgrades to EHP ceases to be useful. But if you are doing a blind quest to spend oodles of gold on DPS upgrades without any regard to EHP, I'm not sure if sustain is the only answer, especially if you've already maxed out your sustain (6% LS) that you can "barely" survive MP8 or MP9. Not you, piffle... the collective you (anyone reading).
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 12/13/2012 10:24 AM PST
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And come to think of it, they may want to consider reducing the damage relfected back from ranged (non-melee) classes. They don't have the benefit of the 30% melee reduction that we and barbs do, so in some ways, it's not fair that they get the same amount of damage reflected back to them. But this is a monk forum and I don't want to argue for the sake of other classes here. :)

On with the show...


Fully agree.

Melee classes can get 5~9% LS, plus 30% damage reduction. It is WAYYYY easier for melee classes to deal with reflect than range.
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So...is the 'magic ratio' being able to live through a full crit hit from yourself?

D3up has me at 531k EHP (1.2 mil w/ dodge). I do ~110k DPS fully buffed from skills (125k with Frenzy shrine).

I can stand in desecrator reflect damage elites in MP10 all day long. (which is about how long it feels like it takes for me to beat them...lol)

I think I can do this because I haven't upped my crit damage to 300%+ yet (like most other folks). I'm still only at 140% CD, so my full crits end up in the 200k range, which is WELL under my EHP.
Edited by Balthazar23#1929 on 12/13/2012 10:06 AM PST
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Right, but that just means that they have failed to reach a sufficient level of EH.

This may be a poor way of looking at it, but I keep thinking back to my raiding days in WoW.

If you were a tank, you wanted as much EH as possible because you were just a meat shield (well, you needed enough threat generation to hold aggro too).

But as a DPSer, you simply needed enough EH that you could survive and then you wanted as much DPS as possible. You weren't a meat shield, you were in charge of blowing stuff up.

I view D3 as being a DPSer - your job is not to soak damage, but to kill things as efficiently as possible. You need enough EH that your Sustain/CDs can take care of your health (since there are no dedicated healers in D3), and then you just need as much DPS as possible.

Think about the TR builds. Druin gives a base line minimum amount of resist/armor/health you need to not die and then says you want as much DPS as possible. Once you reach those levels and you never die, do you really need more EH?
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Translation - rare minions deal more damage with RD than they are supposed to. We are nerfing the amount of damage they deal with RD in an upcoming patch.

They are concerned chiefly with minions, and have made no mention of reducing the damage from RD elite packs or RD champion monsters. Just minions. MINIONS. MiNiOns. mINiOnS. minions. :)

12/13/2012 09:47 AMPosted by Piffle
Right. As I said, you need enough EH that you don't die before your sustain/reactions take over and you don't need anymore.

I think we are arguing essentially the same point. EH does tie in to the bigger picture. As you begin to increase DPS, you increase the damage you incur against RD packs. So at that point, you can choose to go more sustain or more EHP. If your DPS gets ridiculously high though, sustain will no longer be enough. I guess that's my point -- that there may not be a ratio, but I think it's something we need to pay attention to. That is all. :)

This all goes back to how each of us want to play the game. There is no one right way to enjoy it. Some of us are quite happy hitting a cap at MP5 or MP6. Maybe MP8. Some of us strive to hit MP10. It's just... different.
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 12/13/2012 10:08 AM PST
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12/13/2012 09:47 AMPosted by Piffle
Right. As I said, you need enough EH that you don't die before your sustain/reactions take over and you don't need anymore.

I think we are arguing essentially the same point. EH does tie in to the bigger picture. As you begin to increase DPS, you increase the damage you incur against RD packs. So at that point, you can choose to go more sustain or more EHP. If your DPS gets ridiculously high though, sustain will no longer be enough. I guess that's my point -- that there may not be a ratio, but I think it's something we need to pay attention to. That is all. :)


Currently RD reflects 20% of your damage back. Now, with enough mitigation, you can cut it down to say 1.5%. Considering the 30% melee reduction and armor reduction and all res reduction. In this case, even if you have 3% life steal, you will not lose any life, even if you increase DPS, given that your mitigation numbers do not change. What reflect does to you is that it cuts into your sustain if you using Life steal. If you have DW life steal, reflect is not going to be a problem.

Now if you have 2000 LOH, and you do fine with RD at 150k dps, you will have a problem when you get a godly weapon and get to (hypothetically) 300k dps, but still opting having 2000 LOH, with the same mitigation.
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!@#$ all this abbreviation %^-* makes me want to punch babies.

wtf is EHP? earth health points?

SPELL !@#$ OUT! not all of us live on these forums and can't stay up to date on the e net lingo.

you guys just need to increase your DHP and you FRGS and your ALFD

but can't forget that if your not going to stack YKQZ
Edited by doom26464#1712 on 12/13/2012 10:27 AM PST
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If your DPS gets ridiculously high though, sustain will no longer be enough. I guess that's my point -- that there may not be a ratio, but I think it's something we need to pay attention to. That is all. :)


This is what I don't think this is true. At my normal tanking gear, I think I'm taking only about 6.5% of the damage dealt be monsters. I have over 5% LS. So, unless RD is reflecting back over 75% of my damage, then more DPS means more healing when I'm hitting RD packs.

I keep hearing 10% and 20% as the number thrown about for the amount reflected, and I can certainly hit RD packs while standing in ground effects. More DPS would only help me out.

With sufficient LS and mitigation hitting RD packs heals you, and more DPS means more healing.
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!@#$ all this abbreviation %^-* makes me want to punch babies.

wtf is EHP? earth health points?

SPELL !@#$ OUT! not all of us live on these forums and can't stay up to date on the e net lingo.

you guys just need to increase your DHP and you FRGS and your ALFD

but can't forget that if your not going to stack YKQZ


Every culture/group has it's own lingo. It's no use getting all bent out of shape over it, particularly if you want to participate in that group. Apparently you do, because you are reading and posting here.

Given that the term was in the title of the post, it's not unreasonable for the OP to assume that people joining the post would know what he's talking about especially given that its a common term around here. You could do a little research before complaining like that.

Or you could just politely ask what it means.

Or you could just check this post, by the OP, which explains it on the previous page of this very thread:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7394209647?page=6#111
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12/13/2012 10:26 AMPosted by doom26464
!@#$ all this abbreviation %^-* makes me want to punch babies.

Please don't punch babies. They are defenseless little earthlings.

Instead, read this: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7200053645
Edited by Nameless#1537 on 12/13/2012 11:39 AM PST
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