Diablo® III

Criticising Diablo 3

They added artificial complexity to the game, but didn’t actually add much in the way of customization.


customization(def): to make or alter to individual or personal specifications.

so in D2 i could choose how my character levelled ( via stat points) as well as what skills i developed and had available ( via skill tree) through the systems in place. if i thought a skill wasnt worth it, would not put points into it and make the ones i preferred stronger. The stat points allowed me to create unique ( some would say "custom" ) character builds that could be completely different to the class standard.

In d3, i cant customize the experience at all as everything is unlocked in a certain order, and after it is unlocked i can choose to use it or not.

im sorry, but blue post doesnt make that much sense to me at all..
Edited by MGH#1860 on 1/10/2013 12:55 AM PST
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Posts: 4,126
In d3, i cant customize the experience at all as everything is unlocked in a certain order, and after it is unlocked i can choose to use it or not.

im sorry, but blue post doesnt make that much sense to me at all..


Diablo II's tree was quite limited. You were limited by level and by skill points. So, you could not get X unless you get Y. I forgot at what point it happens but pretty early in levels, the skill choice exceeds that of Diablo II's due to its linear tree (that and synergies did away with choice as well, it sort of hurt the idea of uniqueness).
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I just logined to 'Like' ur post. I agree pretty much on most of the points. As gamers now, we have played so many other games out there, by comparing, we knowing D3 is too simplified and dumbed-down system (I shall not reiterate).

By the way, CM-Vaeflare doesn't make sense, he is just refusing to acknowledge and continues defending the D3 title, stating those defensive langauge over and over again since release. Perhaps, D3 is the only game Vaeflare plays and he has no much experience on the subject. Just ignore him = ='''.
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Many games have decent items sink, just like Ragnarok has a way to overupgrade stuff.

Diablo 3 would first need to incorporate a way to upgrade stuff;

In Ragnarok +0 to +4 is safe for upgrading all piece of armors and LV4 weapons and the chance of success lowers faster than for Lv1,2,3 weapons

Level 1 gives +2atk per refine and is safe up to +7
Level 2 gives +3atk per refine and is safe up to +6
Level 3 gives +5atk per refine and is safe up to +5
L4, +7, safe +4
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Many games have decent items sink, just like Ragnarok has a way to overupgrade stuff.

Diablo 3 would first need to incorporate a way to upgrade stuff;

In Ragnarok +0 to +4 is safe for upgrading all piece of armors and LV4 weapons and the chance of success lowers faster than for Lv1,2,3 weapons

Level 1 gives +2atk per refine and is safe up to +7
Level 2 gives +3atk per refine and is safe up to +6
Level 3 gives +5atk per refine and is safe up to +5
L4, +7, safe +4


Now thats what I call a real gamble! Not this RNG crap

Edit: From what I can remember the item breaks if it fails? I could be wrong.
Edited by ICreVet#2698 on 1/10/2013 3:40 AM PST
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Well D3 was fun for a few weeks and that it is. Once you completed inferno the game became a giant bore fest, in fact, inferno was mind numbingly boring due to the tedious and pointless unrewarding loot system. The major problem is D3 has no depth, no complexity, no real characterization or customization, no real end game, no ladder, an atrocious auction house, no PvP. There are far more things I could add.

I mean these elements alone make D3 a real letdown and mediocre at best. Then you have Path of Exile, where more and more D3 players are moving over to, and rightfully so. The game is far superior in every way. Maybe it will be a good thing for Blizzard to know that there is an ARPG out there that is vastly superior to their own game, it might make them reevaluate their own mediocre product and make a huge amount of additions and drastic changes. Personally I feel there is little hope to D3, too much trying to please the masses, it is not complex or intelligent enough so it will continue to lose its player base.


completely agree
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Posts: 102
I kind of agree with the developers on the stat points. I don't think it would add anything to this game but then again, I'm not everybody. Maybe this and the unpopular runes could be addressed together. For every 5 paragon levels you get 1 rune point you can allocate. Which would either give the rune +X% damage, +X% damage reduction or +1 second to duration (would be predetermined to fit the rune and not a player choice). Less powerful runes get more of an X bonus than would the more powerful runes. Then you add someone that you can go to and buyback your allocations if you don't like them for an increasing fee (with a cap) per point removed. Offers a way to bring all runes to level 60+ caliber and gives players a bit more customization. Not to mention it could be a nice gold sink.
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While we enjoyed allocating stats and having intricate skill trees in Diablo II (as well as the benefits they provided), we ultimately feel the current stat and skill system is better for Diablo III. We heavily iterated on the skill trees and stat points in Diablo III for quite some time, but we felt that they simply didn’t fit the direction we wanted to go with the game. They added artificial complexity to the game, but didn’t actually add much in the way of customization. They also often rendered a remarkable penalty, in that if you mis-allocated a stat point or skill the wrong way, or simply wanted to change it at a later point in time, you were out of luck, as you were locked to your original choice.

We strongly feel that in general, players will know whether or not they like a particular skill or play style only after they’ve had a chance to try it out for themselves. And while there definitely is some intrigue and fun to permanently committing yourself to a particular character design, it’s not what we envision for Diablo III. We want players to be able to experiment and find a combination of skills and runes that they enjoy and that fit them the best. We also don’t believe that the current skill system would really benefit from a free allocation of stats, either. We think that players can achieve a sizable level of customization through runes, and that this system fits in much better with the overall design of the game.


01/08/2013 06:28 PMPosted by Vaeflare
What's she's really saying is "Be glad we did anything for you. Regardless of what you may think, the changes were great and the game is big fun. Item choices are interesting, stat allocation is spot on, and if you can't see that then.. well, you're just not doing it right."


Yeah it’s… not really cool to try and paraphrase my words in order to twist the sentiment of my post. :-/

Design decisions are made with a lot in mind, and it’s an ongoing development process that often involves a lot of people. While I can try to offer insight into why we’ve made or are considering certain design decisions, at the end of the day, people’s opinions on it will undoubtedly vary from person-to-person, and since the folks here at Blizzard are gamers just like you, you can bet this passionate bunch has some varied opinions about all sorts of things relating to Diablo III.

While there are aspects of the game you’re bound to jive with, there are undoubtedly others that simply might not be your cup of tea (or blood, since we’re talking about slaying demons here). If you’ve noticed something that you think could be improved, we truly do want to hear about it, but bear in mind that while a lot of feedback we receive sounds really neat (and believe me, I’ve seen some incredibly awesome ideas floating around here), that doesn’t mean we have the bandwidth to do it all, nor that we necessarily believe that certain ideas are best for Diablo III. But as I’ve said before, we’re down to continue to improve it and make it the best game we possibly can.


You don't feel that permanent choices was the way to go with Diablo III, but can you at least admit that complete and total freedom in skill choices and the abolishment of player allocated stats was the wrong way to go or at least too far to go in the opposite direction?

There are so many ways you can have improved on the runeskill system, and on the Paragon system, particularly in regards to customization and choices.

You can claim all you want that the free and infinite respec, totally open skill system offers limitless customization, but on the other hand we can argue in response that without any permanent choices or even meaningful choices, either in skills or in stats, that there is actually no customization whatsoever. It is an illusion, because any decisions you make on how your character plays or feels is completely transitory, and can be wiped clean in an instant at no cost.

What bugs me the most is that there seems to be no concept by anyone at Blizzard that there is so much middle ground to be had between the complete permanence of skills and stats in Diablo II and the complete lack of stats and total impermanence of skills in Diablo III.

For example, there was so much that could have been done with the Paragon system. For starters, it could have been expanded to be more robust and meaningful in that players could assign their own stats for each Paragon level (and obviously, the stats need to be more attractive than just class primary stat + vit, either in what Paragon offers or in a remodel of the primary stats and their primary and secondary effects to each class). To go further, stats could have been trees that they go down with each level, for example after after gaining four Paragon Levels and spending points in four nodes of +Vit, a bigger fifth node opens up that you can spend your fifth Paragon Level point in for +1% Life. And to cap it off, you can introduce meaningful decision making in this regard by making those choices semi-permanent: able to be respecced but at a cost, such as de-leveling one paragon level for every point you wish to 'unspend' and having to re-level and re-earn the points you erase, perhaps even at a faster XP gain for levels you've previously earned.

And just because your skill system no longer is a tree model doesn't mean it can't be just as meaningful for customization. Nephalem Valor was a good start, but I'm sad that you guys didn't keep the ball rolling and come up with newer and better ways to expand on the idea that you wanted to encourage build permanence beyond a single game session.
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greatest thread ever, blizz should take notes.
(copy and paste it and memo it to everyone in the staff for dev.)
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Now thats what I call a real gamble! Not this RNG crapEdit: From what I can remember the item breaks if it fails? I could be wrong.


Yeah any failure destroys the item even if they are indestructible

http://irowiki.org/wiki/Refinement_System#Effects_Gained has the details
Edited by DoNTDiEx#1499 on 1/10/2013 6:08 AM PST
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You can claim all you want that the free and infinite respec, totally open skill system offers limitless customization, but on the other hand we can argue in response that without any permanent choices or even meaningful choices, either in skills or in stats, that there is actually no customization whatsoever. It is an illusion, because any decisions you make on how your character plays or feels is completely transitory, and can be wiped clean in an instant at no cost.

What bugs me the most is that there seems to be no concept by anyone at Blizzard that there is so much middle ground to be had between the complete permanence of skills and stats in Diablo II and the complete lack of stats and total impermanence of skills in Diablo III.


Permanent choices a la reroll is not customization and I can prove it. What if I had a system where you would have only a small number of builds that could actually clear the content and no respects. Two builds per class that can clear the content. Like take an two hand axe warrior and a sword/board warrior. Where you have to spend your skill points and stat points properly in order to make it work. Now if I had infinite respecs you would say no customization. The second I have no respecs then it is instead of infinite respecs you say it is instant customization.

I say that you only have customization when you have a lot of builds per class that can clear the content. I say that this game no doubt has more builds per class that can clear the content. That does not change just because respecs become very costly or removed from the game.

Forced rerolls do not yield customization, they are only an annoyance to the players plain and simple.
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You can claim all you want that the free and infinite respec, totally open skill system offers limitless customization, but on the other hand we can argue in response that without any permanent choices or even meaningful choices, either in skills or in stats, that there is actually no customization whatsoever. It is an illusion, because any decisions you make on how your character plays or feels is completely transitory, and can be wiped clean in an instant at no cost.

What bugs me the most is that there seems to be no concept by anyone at Blizzard that there is so much middle ground to be had between the complete permanence of skills and stats in Diablo II and the complete lack of stats and total impermanence of skills in Diablo III.


Permanent choices a la reroll is not customization and I can prove it. What if I had a system where you would have only a small number of builds that could actually clear the content and no respects. Two builds per class that can clear the content. Like take an two hand axe warrior and a sword/board warrior. Where you have to spend your skill points and stat points properly in order to make it work. Now if I had infinite respecs you would say no customization. The second I have no respecs then it is instead of infinite respecs you say it is instant customization.

I say that you only have customization when you have a lot of builds per class that can clear the content. I say that this game no doubt has more builds per class that can clear the content. That does not change just because respecs become very costly or removed from the game.

Forced rerolls do not yield customization, they are only an annoyance to the players plain and simple.


If you've played Guild Wars 1 the stats there have a lot of meaning and is a good balance vs. gear which is just a minimal stereotype between classes of light medium heavy, and skills work on it as well. Can't be re-spec'ed in the field/pvp or whatever, can only be done in town, forcing a commitment, but not permanently sticking you to it forever.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 1/10/2013 7:19 AM PST
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70 Tauren Paladin
13565
Posts: 2,869
You can claim all you want that the free and infinite respec, totally open skill system offers limitless customization, but on the other hand we can argue in response that without any permanent choices or even meaningful choices, either in skills or in stats, that there is actually no customization whatsoever. It is an illusion, because any decisions you make on how your character plays or feels is completely transitory, and can be wiped clean in an instant at no cost.

What bugs me the most is that there seems to be no concept by anyone at Blizzard that there is so much middle ground to be had between the complete permanence of skills and stats in Diablo II and the complete lack of stats and total impermanence of skills in Diablo III.


Permanent choices a la reroll is not customization and I can prove it. What if I had a system where you would have only a small number of builds that could actually clear the content and no respects. Two builds per class that can clear the content. Like take an two hand axe warrior and a sword/board warrior. Where you have to spend your skill points and stat points properly in order to make it work. Now if I had infinite respecs you would say no customization. The second I have no respecs then it is instead of infinite respecs you say it is instant customization.

I say that you only have customization when you have a lot of builds per class that can clear the content. I say that this game no doubt has more builds per class that can clear the content. That does not change just because respecs become very costly or removed from the game.

Forced rerolls do not yield customization, they are only an annoyance to the players plain and simple.


Dude, come on, you're better than that.

Why would you give an example where there are a small number of builds that can clear current content? Even in D2 there were hundreds of builds which could clear current content, and it kept people playing for a decade. There could be hundreds of choices in D3 too.

Why should spending your points in a good manner not increase your success? You don't have to copy a cookie-cutter build, but you can if you want to. Freedom of choice.

Please don't speak for everyone. Firstly, they're not "forced rerolls". Secondly, they're not "an annoyance to everyone'.
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tl:dr QQ more
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How did a thread from the beta forums sneak back out to play??
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01/10/2013 07:52 AMPosted by Vyleblud
How did a thread from the beta forums sneak back out to play??


I thought we were still in beta.
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90 Goblin Warrior
7785
Posts: 630

You speak of rares or magics and you'll just get laughed at, all everyone talks about is Legendary this that, mempo skorn, manticore blah blah, I haven't played and read enough to know that's all is being mentioned mainly for items and things, which still isn't even fully viable on the new Monster Power...? And one last thing I know Rares are still somewhat useful just as cheap trash gear now until you find your first Legendary and such, but past that you never look back really


If you haven’t played in a few months, you might have missed out on some of the item improvements we’ve made along the way. In terms of patch 1.0.4, you might want to check out the blog we did regarding [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6923457/104_Legendary_Item_Improvements-8_14_2012"]Legendary Item Improvements[/url] as well as the various overall item improvements we made in [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7528695/"]patch 1.0.5[/url].


There are still MANY improvements needed to Rares. ex: 2-Handers STILL stand no chance against practically any Skorn. 2-Hand Hellions are still the lowest % dropping item in the game, I get them as often as I get a legendary, 1 per run, if im lucky.

More than 80% of the legendary/set item database should simply be renamed to "Brimstone Fodder" The other 10% requires good rolls and the other 10% is actually good almost regardless of rolls.
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Posts: 190
Wtf is "artificial complexity"? Do the people making this game realize they are making a game? A game is all about adding complexity or else it would be just a simple and dull experience.

Honestly who the hell championed such a thought?

Anyone who thinks of such an idea of "artificial complexity" as ruining a game shouldn't be allowed within a mile of a game design studio. What makes a game beautiful is the layering of complex interacting elements.

The team that made Diablo 2 understood this well. The Diablo 3 team just doesn't understand what its doing.
Edited by Sritanis#1422 on 1/10/2013 1:48 PM PST
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Okay let me begin with this.

I have already posted a dozen threads about this. All I got were the gay troll fanboys who had nothing more to say then basically:

It's good enough, you just suck...

Yeah right. I strongly support the OP based on various reasons.

1) Diablo III has had no improvements beyond obvious and simple development, and their so !@#$ing concerned with stupid things such as hey let's build a gay little statue and sell it for 100$+ that way we can milk them more.

You people who think this game is okay are wrong, it was OKAY back 10+ %^-*ing years ago when people took notice to diablo 1.

You can shut your !@#$ing faces because if you don't ever %^-*!@# game you begin to play out there is going to end up like $%^-ing farmville. You want that *!@#??

2) The Grind

View some top tiered players. A player who posted a quitting thread had over 1k hours, and 80k kills which averaged out to 1.333 kills per minute. That includes repair time, identify time, afk, vendoring. Yet, with all that $%^-ing effort, he has even less cash than me. His best item was worth 170m... after all that *!@#ing time..

Wake the $%^- up... your not getting your money's worth you idiot's. The staff has been posting stupid *!@# like the time they posted about eating beef jerky or some gay $%^-. When have you seen any actual beneficial *!@# be produced without drawbacks?

Hellfire ring? Your kidding. I have 2 trash alts completely filled with hellfire rings in their inventories, over 250+ rings and yet none of them are even remotely useful to me. The set bonus on the rings I have are better unless I roll at least a trifecta.

You guys who wanna grind for over 1k hours on the rings... be my guest, but don't you DARE post here defending this steaming pile of a broken legacy.

3) RMAH + AH

Bots have destroyed the economy, there is no gold sink, therefore this game will deteriorate in prices.

Think of it nice and simple like this. The US dollar used to be based on gold, except now the government doesn't use gold to represent the dollars value because franklin believed gold would one day be able to be man-made. (Smart thinking, lead is 1 molecule away from gold)

The dollar is now based on GDP, gross domestic product, which is a representation of our countries good. So a dollar is a small percentage of the countries goods, basically.

If our only gross domestic product was wood, then 1$ would represent a percentage of our total amount. The more wood we cut, the more a dollar would be worth in wood. If the wood never was used, didn't get burned, anything like that, then soon the dollar would be worth nothing since there was plenty of wood, and plenty of dollars.

This is why gold is worth nothing. There are no goldsinks, and too much gold from bots, and too many items from bots, combined with item flipping and ah bot flipping, making items almost useless except for the top tier items... and useful items being way over priced.
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