Diablo® III

Criticising Diablo 3

I really like that siege mode idea.
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Permanent choices a la reroll is not customization and I can prove it. What if I had a system where you would have only a small number of builds that could actually clear the content and no respects. Two builds per class that can clear the content. Like take an two hand axe warrior and a sword/board warrior. Where you have to spend your skill points and stat points properly in order to make it work. Now if I had infinite respecs you would say no customization. The second I have no respecs then it is instead of infinite respecs you say it is instant customization.

I say that you only have customization when you have a lot of builds per class that can clear the content. I say that this game no doubt has more builds per class that can clear the content. That does not change just because respecs become very costly or removed from the game.

Forced rerolls do not yield customization, they are only an annoyance to the players plain and simple.


Dude, come on, you're better than that.

Why would you give an example where there are a small number of builds that can clear current content? Even in D2 there were hundreds of builds which could clear current content, and it kept people playing for a decade. There could be hundreds of choices in D3 too.

Why should spending your points in a good manner not increase your success? You don't have to copy a cookie-cutter build, but you can if you want to. Freedom of choice.

Please don't speak for everyone. Firstly, they're not "forced rerolls". Secondly, they're not "an annoyance to everyone'.


I was using an extreme example of why forced rerolls does not equal customization like the one I was replying to was talking about in the paragraphs that I was replying to. Some players actually believe that a no respec system equals customization, it equals true permanent choices. When it cannot do either, all it does is annoy players.

True customization comes from the way that the skills are designed, not some mechanic that locks you into using only certain skills. Where if you want to try another build you have to reroll. If you have a crappy skill design like I mentioned in the example, forced rerolls will not make it instant customization. All forced rerolls do there is to annoy players, what are other players trying to horde that build like it is truly their own, a copyright protected build. Sorry but you cannot do that.

Forced rerolls does not change how the skills work or the design of the skills. They cannot do that at all. So then why are they an annoyance.

Just look no further than D2 and you will see it was an annoyance. Why did you have so many rushing through the content in order to get to hell difficulty to try out the build that they wanted. If everyone loved leveling they should've taken their sweet time doing it. Of course I am talking about non ladder players of course. Even non ladder characters had a ton of rushing games. I know because the small amount of time that I did play online I seen a ton of rushing games.

If you love a particular meal cooked by a really good chef, will you wolf it down like there is no tomorrow? Or will you take your sweet time and savor each and every morsel? I know that I would not wolf it down so I would choose the latter.

The rushing games in D2 proved it was an annoyance.
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Wtf is "artificial complexity"? Do the people making this game realize they are making a game? A game is all about adding complexity or else it would be just a simple and dull experience.

Honestly who the hell championed such a thought?

Anyone who thinks of such an idea of "artificial complexity" as ruining a game shouldn't be allowed within a mile of a game design studio. What makes a game beautiful is the layering of complex interacting elements.

The team that made Diablo 2 understood this well. The Diablo 3 team just doesn't understand what its doing.


Look D2's system was not as complex as you think it is. People that say it is complex is only fooling themselves. So when you dinged a level you said "Ma, what do I spend my skill point on?". Ma, how do I spend my five stat points? Or maybe you say "I'm a thinking and my head hurts." Anything more complex than D2's system and your head would explode from all of the thinking.

1) Diablo III has had no improvements beyond obvious and simple development, and their so !@#$ing concerned with stupid things such as hey let's build a gay little statue and sell it for 100$+ that way we can milk them more.

You people who think this game is okay are wrong, it was OKAY back 10+ %^-*ing years ago when people took notice to diablo 1.

You can shut your !@#$ing faces because if you don't ever %^-*!@# game you begin to play out there is going to end up like $%^-ing farmville. You want that *!@#??


What you do not like the fact that others are enjoying this game and having a blast. Even though you do not. You hate those that like this game even though they are aware of it's flaws and come here and make suggestions to try and fix the flaws. So according to you they have no right to like it until you like it and are having fun, huh. Well that is not gonna happen. People that love playing a game despite it's flaws will still continue to do so.

Whatever you are grinding for if you are having fun in the process then it does not matter. But to you you needed to hit a perfect ring on the very first try, huh. So again like your other point if you are not having fun then no one has the right to have fun huh.

You see the problem with gold sinks is that they cannot be huge. If they are then the vast majority will go broke while those at the top will only lose a maybe in the 10's of millions of gold. Barely denting their gold supply, which would not help one bit. You have enough gold sinks here already. You have repair cost, gem crafting and some might even try getting a good roll on crafted gear.

Also I would not say gold is worth nothing, sure dollar wise it is worth nothing. But that does not count when it compared to the fact that players are wanting those top tiered items but cannot get the gold through playing the game. Because they do not know how to use all of the in game resources in order to amass that amount of gold.

You are only looking for the have-nots to be poorer than what they are now. Increasing the gap between the haves and the have-nots.
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I will say D3 lacks dark evil vibes. Some of the dialog is hit or miss. I think the game play is pretty damn good. The graphics and effects are pretty damn good. I just think they could have made the game a bit more creepy. I am not complaining about the game because I had my fill and then some and enjoyed it. The itemization seems off but thats because of the RMAH and AH in general.

What I would like in a future patch is the ability to play on a server that has no access to RMAH and or AH and adjust the drop rates accordingly. More randomization in the environments would have been a nice gesture. I also would have appreciated points in the game where you had choices of which way you want to go instead of just a straight line. They could have done better but they made this game for the masses not the hardcore.
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Probably the best post I have ever read on the Diablo forums, well done.

Blizzard should get you onboard the lead the Expansion!
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Dude, come on, you're better than that.

Why would you give an example where there are a small number of builds that can clear current content? Even in D2 there were hundreds of builds which could clear current content, and it kept people playing for a decade. There could be hundreds of choices in D3 too.

Why should spending your points in a good manner not increase your success? You don't have to copy a cookie-cutter build, but you can if you want to. Freedom of choice.

Please don't speak for everyone. Firstly, they're not "forced rerolls". Secondly, they're not "an annoyance to everyone'.


I was using an extreme example of why forced rerolls does not equal customization like the one I was replying to was talking about in the paragraphs that I was replying to. Some players actually believe that a no respec system equals customization, it equals true permanent choices. When it cannot do either, all it does is annoy players.

True customization comes from the way that the skills are designed, not some mechanic that locks you into using only certain skills. Where if you want to try another build you have to reroll. If you have a crappy skill design like I mentioned in the example, forced rerolls will not make it instant customization. All forced rerolls do there is to annoy players, what are other players trying to horde that build like it is truly their own, a copyright protected build. Sorry but you cannot do that.

Forced rerolls does not change how the skills work or the design of the skills. They cannot do that at all. So then why are they an annoyance.

Just look no further than D2 and you will see it was an annoyance. Why did you have so many rushing through the content in order to get to hell difficulty to try out the build that they wanted. If everyone loved leveling they should've taken their sweet time doing it. Of course I am talking about non ladder players of course. Even non ladder characters had a ton of rushing games. I know because the small amount of time that I did play online I seen a ton of rushing games.

If you love a particular meal cooked by a really good chef, will you wolf it down like there is no tomorrow? Or will you take your sweet time and savor each and every morsel? I know that I would not wolf it down so I would choose the latter.

The rushing games in D2 proved it was an annoyance.


You quoted it yourself in your response but since you clearly didn't read it, I will repeat it here again:
What bugs me the most is that there seems to be no concept by anyone at Blizzard that there is so much middle ground to be had between the complete permanence of skills and stats in Diablo II and the complete lack of stats and total impermanence of skills in Diablo III.
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01/10/2013 03:48 PMPosted by Mith
You quoted it yourself in your response but since you clearly didn't read it, I will repeat it here again:


01/10/2013 03:48 PMPosted by Mith
What bugs me the most is that there seems to be no concept by anyone at Blizzard that there is so much middle ground to be had between the complete permanence of skills and stats in Diablo II and the complete lack of stats and total impermanence of skills in Diablo III.


Look Mith that quote had nothing to do with what I was talking about. Permanence of choice which means no respecs does not and can never equal customization. Customization comes from how the skills and the skill system is designed.

Let me ask you a simple question. Would a free and infinite respec in D2 mean that customization has been striped from that game?

Also it has nothing to do with what I was talking about that zero respecs that means a forced reroll if you wanted to try a different build. The very fact that rushing was a big part of D2 meant that the majority of players really did not like the leveling portion of the game at all. If they indeed loved it then they would not rush, unless they were playing on the ladder. They would not rush on a non ladder game if they loved leveling a new character.

I know that I would not rush if I truly loved leveling characters. I would savor every moment of going from weak hero into a powerful hero. The fact that rushing was in the non ladder characters portion of the game proves to me that forced rerolls was an annoyance to the players.
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I'd be perfectly happy with three things. A stat system added, more skills becoming useful and more gear towards skill builds.

Even if it were something like taking attack speed, crit damage, and crit off gear then turn these into stats you can add a certain amount of points to. Add a new stat that reduces all cooldown spells by a percentage increased by points spent. This can be done easily and kept balanced. Keep your main stats (like vit, str) along with defensive stats away from having points. Let them continue to gain automatically. Otherwise, you'd have too many stats that would require points, which would just take more away from customizing.This also frees up people only buying gear with the above stats "needed" dps stats.

Give us new stats/buffs on gear and gems replacing the above. Make these new stats/buffs work with builds, or rather class specific skills causing some kind of synergy. So now we are building off skills specs not just AS, CRIT, CD.

Most importantly work on underused (or just plain useless) skills/runes that all our classes have.
Edited by PonyJuicing#1864 on 1/10/2013 9:45 PM PST
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the biggest problem with diablo 3 is that the game is soooo incredibly dumbed down

the re-playability is so low because the dev team decided to use a completely different system for skills and stats than the success formula in D2

honestly, i really wish it wasn't an ego problem...but it really looks like it
continuing to think that the current system is better than D2 is just ignorant
because it is not, everyone has exactly the same builds, the same character
there is NO depth to character building

and development is just WAYYY TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SLOOOOOOOOWWW

8 months and all we saw was a legendary patch, paragon patch, and infernal machine patch
all of them lacked depth and longevity because each one is so flawed on so many levels
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Regarding that last part I'm glad to hear you're socially active among the venues that most people check and see, but the forums here are equally as important, if not even more. It's quite disheartening to see these threads & many other things go without any response for pretty much half a month each time.

I know you all have to attend meetings conferences design shakedowns and whatnot, I'm not oblivious to that for sure, but it'd nice to get a check-in from you and the other CMs maybe once a week, daily is just asking too much. I've seen Blizzard's studio and HQ(pretty bold statement I guess), seen development teams and gone through development cycles, game design classes & studios and I know that job is extremely demanding from customers(i.e the players) and highly stressful with crazy crunch time and OT during certain phases of milestones and the like. But a simple drop-in weekly would be nice rather than silence for half a month to something else.

Maybe even just rumor debunking would be nice, or small tidbits of why the blog posts are delayed or something. Not asking for miracles or lies here just some communication.


With the exception of our [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/8163086/Happy_Holidays-12_21_2012"]holiday break[/url] and whatever time each of us take off for events or vacations throughout the year, we’re here, and we’re busy. Each week we have [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/"]numerous blogs[/url] that go up concerning a variety of topics, and pretty much every weekday one or more of us are actively posting updates to our social media sites as and posting here on the forums. While what we post on might not always be the issue that concerns you most, I can assure you we don’t go months without posting (I’ve posted about a half a dozen times here today, and Lylirra is very active as well). But when time and schedule allows, I’m personally trying to squeeze in more time to post here and [url="https://twitter.com/Vaeflare"]elsewhere[/url] on the “interwebs.” :)

As I said though, we’re definitely interested on continuing to improve communication with the community. One of the things we’re looking into is a better method to make sure that important “Blue” posts are highlighted, since I suspect many inadvertently are overlooked (which explains some of the repeat questions I see so often).


Can you and your fellow mod friends please cut the crap and the gay little puns and sht...

Seriously, NOONE is 100% happy with this game, and if they are its only because d2 was so perfectly done.

You guys need to understand 3 things.

1) Too many items - Most of which suck.

2) Too much money - No efficient goldsink (and bots)

3) Too many affixes - Shouldn't be able to roll a gay strength bow. That sht... is gay.
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Look Mith that quote had nothing to do with what I was talking about. Permanence of choice which means no respecs does not and can never equal customization. Customization comes from how the skills and the skill system is designed.

Let me ask you a simple question. Would a free and infinite respec in D2 mean that customization has been striped from that game?
Also it has nothing to do with what I was talking about that zero respecs that means a forced reroll if you wanted to try a different build. The very fact that rushing was a big part of D2 meant that the majority of players really did not like the leveling portion of the game at all. If they indeed loved it then they would not rush, unless they were playing on the ladder. They would not rush on a non ladder game if they loved leveling a new character.

I know that I would not rush if I truly loved leveling characters. I would savor every moment of going from weak hero into a powerful hero. The fact that rushing was in the non ladder characters portion of the game proves to me that forced rerolls was an annoyance to the players.


Absolutely yes.

Also, the fact that rushing existed tells me that players didn't care about leveling in a game that was all about endgame. But however you want to swing it to support your own argument.
Edited by Mith#1762 on 1/10/2013 10:30 PM PST
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01/10/2013 10:25 PMPosted by Gregory
Seriously, NOONE is 100% happy with this game, and if they are its only because d2 was so perfectly done.


D2 was perfectly done? Really... now... really...?
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70 Tauren Paladin
13565


Dude, come on, you're better than that.

Why would you give an example where there are a small number of builds that can clear current content? Even in D2 there were hundreds of builds which could clear current content, and it kept people playing for a decade. There could be hundreds of choices in D3 too.

Why should spending your points in a good manner not increase your success? You don't have to copy a cookie-cutter build, but you can if you want to. Freedom of choice.

Please don't speak for everyone. Firstly, they're not "forced rerolls". Secondly, they're not "an annoyance to everyone'.


I was using an extreme example of why forced rerolls does not equal customization like the one I was replying to was talking about in the paragraphs that I was replying to. Some players actually believe that a no respec system equals customization, it equals true permanent choices. When it cannot do either, all it does is annoy players.

True customization comes from the way that the skills are designed, not some mechanic that locks you into using only certain skills. Where if you want to try another build you have to reroll. If you have a crappy skill design like I mentioned in the example, forced rerolls will not make it instant customization. All forced rerolls do there is to annoy players, what are other players trying to horde that build like it is truly their own, a copyright protected build. Sorry but you cannot do that.

Forced rerolls does not change how the skills work or the design of the skills. They cannot do that at all. So then why are they an annoyance.

Just look no further than D2 and you will see it was an annoyance. Why did you have so many rushing through the content in order to get to hell difficulty to try out the build that they wanted. If everyone loved leveling they should've taken their sweet time doing it. Of course I am talking about non ladder players of course. Even non ladder characters had a ton of rushing games. I know because the small amount of time that I did play online I seen a ton of rushing games.

If you love a particular meal cooked by a really good chef, will you wolf it down like there is no tomorrow? Or will you take your sweet time and savor each and every morsel? I know that I would not wolf it down so I would choose the latter.

The rushing games in D2 proved it was an annoyance.


It annoyed players how? Huh? It annoyed players so much that they kept making, comparing and trying new builds for a decade? The people who turned D2 into a legend?

Yeah, we were pretty annoyed.

Customization, as you say, is made by the way skills are created as you say, and the variety. I completely agree. Replayability does not. When you have all skills available to you at any one time, when each character you play unlocks them at exactly the same time, there goes your replayability.

It doesn't get less, it DISAPPEARS COMPLETELY. There is ZERO reason to have more than one of any class. In D2 you had many reasons.

Call that "forced replayability/rerolling" if you want, but you really aren't convincing anyone.

Again you come in with the "all it does is annoy players" argument. Will you give that a rest? It might have annoyed you - the more fool you, I guess.

How does the excitement of testing/leveling/experimenting/playing with an entirely different build of my favorite class annoy me? Well? I don't remember being particularly annoyed.

I don't remember being annoyed when I could tweak my character the way I wanted, not the way everyone else in the entire world was, at the single touch of a button.

And, at the end of your post, the true stupidity of your argument starts to shine. Note - I'm not trying to be offensive, but that's the only way I can put it.

You say that because people were rushed through hell, that having to try new builds "annoyed" them?

What. The. F#ck.

In EVERY SINGLE HOBBY IN THE WORLD, there are people who like to rush. There are people who like to take it leisurely. There are people who like to try only one concept. There are those who like to experiment. Are you REALLY that closed-minded?

You're saying locked builds ANNOYED PEOPLE because some people were RUSHED?

Pro-tip - once I've levelled 50-100 DIFFERENT characters in D2, every now and then I just wanted to try a high-level duelling spec, so I got a friend to rush me to the level I wanted, or they were willing.

This means that trying new builds annoyed me?

What? What?
Edited by Sal#6192 on 1/10/2013 10:48 PM PST
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Thanks for taking the time to craft such a constructive and well-intentioned thread. We really do appreciate the passion of Diablo III players like yourself, and you have some very fair points and feedback, so /highfive for that!

And how an old game had systems inspired already to lead into multiple diversities and that game is full of skill trees and is immensively popular, so those telling me skill trees & stat points is outdated, tell that to a 12 year old game still surviving and is massively going on updates still. It's only outdated if your skill trees/stats don't actually offer any equality between power & variation.


While we enjoyed allocating stats and having intricate skill trees in Diablo II (as well as the benefits they provided), we ultimately feel the current stat and skill system is better for Diablo III. We heavily iterated on the skill trees and stat points in Diablo III for quite some time, but we felt that they simply didn’t fit the direction we wanted to go with the game. They added artificial complexity to the game, but didn’t actually add much in the way of customization. They also often rendered a remarkable penalty, in that if you mis-allocated a stat point or skill the wrong way, or simply wanted to change it at a later point in time, you were out of luck, as you were locked to your original choice.

We strongly feel that in general, players will know whether or not they like a particular skill or play style only after they’ve had a chance to try it out for themselves. And while there definitely is some intrigue and fun to permanently committing yourself to a particular character design, it’s not what we envision for Diablo III. We want players to be able to experiment and find a combination of skills and runes that they enjoy and that fit them the best. We also don’t believe that the current skill system would really benefit from a free allocation of stats, either. We think that players can achieve a sizable level of customization through runes, and that this system fits in much better with the overall design of the game.

You speak of rares or magics and you'll just get laughed at, all everyone talks about is Legendary this that, mempo skorn, manticore blah blah, I haven't played and read enough to know that's all is being mentioned mainly for items and things, which still isn't even fully viable on the new Monster Power...? And one last thing I know Rares are still somewhat useful just as cheap trash gear now until you find your first Legendary and such, but past that you never look back really


If you haven’t played in a few months, you might have missed out on some of the item improvements we’ve made along the way. In terms of patch 1.0.4, you might want to check out the blog we did regarding [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6923457/104_Legendary_Item_Improvements-8_14_2012"]Legendary Item Improvements[/url] as well as the various overall item improvements we made in [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7528695/"]patch 1.0.5[/url].

Regarding the death timer: The incrementing death timer is actually being removed in 1.0.7.


See, this is where Diablo 3 crashes and burns. All of these different game systems that were in Diablo 2 were at least fairly complex, some more than others, like the skill tree system. You think it was just an illusion of complexity? That's totally fine, why don't you up the complexity or come up with something new? Add more and new affixes than D2 had, add more attributes than D2 had, expand on the skill tree system that D2 had (think Path of Exile).

What do you do instead? You take all the original mechanics, and you just plain out dumb them down to the point where the game has literally no complexity at all. Where are the runes and runewords? Where are the charms? Why can we only play 4 people at a time, and why do we stand to gain nothing by playing with others? Where's the social aspect of this game? JW said it's supposed to be played with a group of friends, but where are the incentives? Why do I have to manually click to ID every single crappy rare I find? Do you have any idea how demoralizing that is to a player? I could go on and on forever, but OP has already a fairly comprehensive and detailed list of everything that's broken in this game. Maybe most importantly, why on earth does it take you so long to implement even small changes? I think that for a lot of players, this is indicative of a game company that has no idea where they want to take their product. For god's sake, you have a PTR, just throw some content out on it and let the player base atleast voice their opinons before you cut major features like you've done so many times now. Stop telling us what we think is fun, because right now you are nowhere near the ballpark.

If you want this game to be as successfull as D2 was (and no, I don't mean sales numbers, but longevity) you need to take a radically new game design direction, away from this dumbing down every single little bit of complexity, and start building on your legacy and try to understand what made the playerbase love it.
Edited by Morkrah#2682 on 1/10/2013 11:17 PM PST
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Look Mith that quote had nothing to do with what I was talking about. Permanence of choice which means no respecs does not and can never equal customization. Customization comes from how the skills and the skill system is designed.

Let me ask you a simple question. Would a free and infinite respec in D2 mean that customization has been striped from that game?
Also it has nothing to do with what I was talking about that zero respecs that means a forced reroll if you wanted to try a different build. The very fact that rushing was a big part of D2 meant that the majority of players really did not like the leveling portion of the game at all. If they indeed loved it then they would not rush, unless they were playing on the ladder. They would not rush on a non ladder game if they loved leveling a new character.

I know that I would not rush if I truly loved leveling characters. I would savor every moment of going from weak hero into a powerful hero. The fact that rushing was in the non ladder characters portion of the game proves to me that forced rerolls was an annoyance to the players.


Absolutely yes.

Also, the fact that rushing existed tells me that players didn't care about leveling in a game that was all about endgame. But however you want to swing it to support your own argument.


Are you saying that giving infinite free respecs totally changes how the skills are designed? Are you saying that giving infinite free respecs totally changes how the gear functions? Are you saying that all hell viable builds would be invalidated with free infinite respecs? If yes to all please explain how it would totally change the skills, gear and everything else. How would it do that if no other changes to the game would be made?
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It annoyed players how? Huh? It annoyed players so much that they kept making, comparing and trying new builds for a decade? The people who turned D2 into a legend?

Yeah, we were pretty annoyed.


Again I say if players loved leveling characters then they should've savored the moment. Taking their sweet time using a non ladder character to try out new builds. Where the only rushing that would be needed would be on the ladder.

But the fact that they rushed when playing non ladder characters proved to me that they did not enjoy leveling characters. They made more characters because they had to in order to try out new builds.

This phrase is like saying how dare Blizz give a player a reason to play their level capped characters. If there is no reason a player should want to play a level capped character. Where as soon as you get to level cap you must reroll. Then here is what I would do to make you happy. Take away the free respecs, making repecing impossible. Then I would also auto delete level 60 characters either after they got to paragon level 100 or after about 500-1000 hours of playing that level 60. Why should you want to keep playing that max level character.

How does the excitement of testing/leveling/experimenting/playing with an entirely different build of my favorite class annoy me? Well? I don't remember being particularly annoyed.

I don't remember being annoyed when I could tweak my character the way I wanted, not the way everyone else in the entire world was, at the single touch of a button.


Now do you have to be like everyone else. Do you have to hit that button just because it is there and respec your character. What you need Blizz to hold your hand and take away respecs just because you have no control and build the character that you want to build.

Also why should it bother you if someone wanted to copy your build. I mean no build is copyright protected, it is not your personal IP that has to be protected.

I am talking about loving the leveling process. Okay then I guess if you were dating a woman you would want to rush through everything, and get back home pronto. Instead of savoring the moment where you would take your time and spend as much time as possible with the woman you love. I mean if you rush in one thing you should be in a constant rush, from one thing to the next.

Someone that truly loves something would not rush, they would not be trying to consume the content at break neck speed. They would take it leisurely, taking their sweet time.

So in closing the rushing proves to me that players hated leveling characters. I would not doubt if Blizz North made free infinite respecs players would still try out new builds. It just would not take them as much time to get through the game in order to try them. They would've loved Blizz North for it.

01/10/2013 10:42 PMPosted by Xoh
You're saying locked builds ANNOYED PEOPLE because some people were RUSHED?


Some rushed, where were your eyes. I know that there were more than some that rushed their way to the top.
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Absolutely yes.

Also, the fact that rushing existed tells me that players didn't care about leveling in a game that was all about endgame. But however you want to swing it to support your own argument.


Are you saying that giving infinite free respecs totally changes how the skills are designed? Are you saying that giving infinite free respecs totally changes how the gear functions? Are you saying that all hell viable builds would be invalidated with free infinite respecs? If yes to all please explain how it would totally change the skills, gear and everything else. How would it do that if no other changes to the game would be made?


Customization is not derived based on how the skills are designed. Customization is derived based on how you develope your character in meaningful ways to distinguish it from any other character you or any other person creates.

At this present time, Diablo III characters are customized based on class choices and sex choice (male/female). Character name gets an asterisk because you rarely if ever even see it. I main a male Barbarian named Mith. That's as specific as I can be, because nothing else about him that I can decide on matters so far as distinguishing him from any other character.

Gear choices are dependent on RNG or your wallet, and are thus not meaningful as a means of player derived customization.

Skill choices are transient. They are meaningless in distinguishing your character because you can change them at any time without any kind of meaningful penalty, and do so as many times as you like.
Edited by Mith#1762 on 1/11/2013 12:18 AM PST
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I like to ADD some criticism to this post :
What was really good in D2 was the itemisation, complex and yet accessible, and in D3 it's just the otherway around, so many things to check and yet does it impact in your gameplay? not that much. (but you spend so much time checking your stuff out and not playing)
D3 it's like Lost in translation of counting number to infinite for nothing....

Pointless, and hollow. I guess the lead designers were more concern to make a valid technical bank statement than a good game.
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01/10/2013 03:26 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
Look D2's system was not as complex as you think it is. People that say it is complex is only fooling themselves. So when you dinged a level you said "Ma, what do I spend my skill point on?". Ma, how do I spend my five stat points? Or maybe you say "I'm a thinking and my head hurts." Anything more complex than D2's system and your head would explode from all of the thinking.


In D2, I soloed Hell with a Necromancer that summoned only skeletons.
I also soloed Hell with a necro that used nothing but poison and bone spells - it was a completely different experience.
Built an online Necro that was 100% curses and aoe poison based. Made a lot of friends with that guy.

And don't get me started on the necro that was 100% melee focused. He was awesome.

Sure would love to do something similar with my demon hunter... oh wait... the only way to play a demon hunter is as a ranged class. At least, if I want to solo Inferno.

Even if D2 wasn't that complex, it allowed for more character choice, more experimentation and more fun than D3.

On an unrelated note, I understand where D3 devs get the notion that they want players to be able to swap abilities, etc. I get it. I even agree with it a little. But there is a way to have the best of both worlds, and Diablo 2, LoD (plus a lot of patching) found it. Why not have a build be permanent, and give the option to respec after completing the game once on a given difficulty? Or even have it so, once you reach paragon level 5, you are required to lock your abilities and runes in place? Assuming you fix some skills and abilities to make them more useful of course (Blizzard has a pretty good track record of this, so I'm pretty optimistic).

I want the character to feel like my creation. Even if he is a failed experiment (trust me, there were a lot of failed experiments building a melee necro), I want the ability to screw up. It's one thing (of many) that made Diablo a little more hardcore than a few other games on the market. If you wanted to solo the highest difficulty, you better bust out the graph paper, take some notes, talk to some friends and plan it for a while, because every step you take is permanent. People appreciated that, and it helped create a community where people talked about their characters and their builds.
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70 Tauren Paladin
13565
It annoyed players how? Huh? It annoyed players so much that they kept making, comparing and trying new builds for a decade? The people who turned D2 into a legend?

Yeah, we were pretty annoyed.


Again I say if players loved leveling characters then they should've savored the moment. Taking their sweet time using a non ladder character to try out new builds. Where the only rushing that would be needed would be on the ladder.

But the fact that they rushed when playing non ladder characters proved to me that they did not enjoy leveling characters. They made more characters because they had to in order to try out new builds.

This phrase is like saying how dare Blizz give a player a reason to play their level capped characters. If there is no reason a player should want to play a level capped character. Where as soon as you get to level cap you must reroll. Then here is what I would do to make you happy. Take away the free respecs, making repecing impossible. Then I would also auto delete level 60 characters either after they got to paragon level 100 or after about 500-1000 hours of playing that level 60. Why should you want to keep playing that max level character.

How does the excitement of testing/leveling/experimenting/playing with an entirely different build of my favorite class annoy me? Well? I don't remember being particularly annoyed.

I don't remember being annoyed when I could tweak my character the way I wanted, not the way everyone else in the entire world was, at the single touch of a button.


Now do you have to be like everyone else. Do you have to hit that button just because it is there and respec your character. What you need Blizz to hold your hand and take away respecs just because you have no control and build the character that you want to build.

Also why should it bother you if someone wanted to copy your build. I mean no build is copyright protected, it is not your personal IP that has to be protected.

I am talking about loving the leveling process. Okay then I guess if you were dating a woman you would want to rush through everything, and get back home pronto. Instead of savoring the moment where you would take your time and spend as much time as possible with the woman you love. I mean if you rush in one thing you should be in a constant rush, from one thing to the next.

Someone that truly loves something would not rush, they would not be trying to consume the content at break neck speed. They would take it leisurely, taking their sweet time.

So in closing the rushing proves to me that players hated leveling characters. I would not doubt if Blizz North made free infinite respecs players would still try out new builds. It just would not take them as much time to get through the game in order to try them. They would've loved Blizz North for it.

01/10/2013 10:42 PMPosted by Xoh
You're saying locked builds ANNOYED PEOPLE because some people were RUSHED?


Some rushed, where were your eyes. I know that there were more than some that rushed their way to the top.


Wow, dude, I really don't know how to open your eyes. You just keep coming in with the astonishingly huge generalizations.

I'll keep it brief this time, as I feel like I'm wasting precious seconds of my life here.

Some people getting rushed does not, under any circumstances, mean that they were annoyed by the skill tree system or permanent builds. I'm sure some disliked it and many more liked it - D2s legacy needs no introduction.

Some rushed, where were your eyes. I know that there were more than some that rushed their way to the top.


...?

...?

Where did I say no-one was ever rushed? I'm pointing out the fact that you're jumping to (in my opinion, absurd) conclusions.

Were some people rushed? Yes. Does that automatically mean they hated permanent builds and were annoyed by the system? No.

Were some people not rushed? Yes. Does that automatically mean they were desperately in love with permanent builds and wouldn't have it any other way? No.

Stop, for the love of all that's holy, making utterly absurd generalizations.

I repeat - once someone's played 50-100 classes to 80+ like I and many, many others, what's wrong with being rushed a few times? Does that mean I was annoyed with the game for encouraging me to play again and again..?

Come on, man. You're smarter than that, surely.
Edited by Sal#6192 on 1/11/2013 2:13 AM PST
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