Diablo® III

Criticising Diablo 3

01/03/2013 05:13 AMPosted by Madmax
This Dev team reminds me of the politicians that do the samething with their oh so wonderous programs that nobody asked for or needs but won't make the changes needed because they want to look as if they had a handle on it the entire time. This Dev team is delusional and I doubt many of them play or bother with the game, they closed their eyes, covered their ears and will not listen to anyone.


I think the problem is more to do with their backgrounds. They came from an MMO background, and they've made an ARPG that is infected (that is how I choose to describe it of course) with many MMO mechanics, such as skill cooldowns, no skill trees, enrage timers, balanced classes, no offline mode, auction houses and the like.

From that point of view, Diablo III probably is a great game to play - it's an ARPG with many of the known, comfortable MMO mechanics baked in.

For someone like me (and I suspect many others, but I'll speak only for myself), looking for an old-school ARPG, Diablo III - so far - isn't it.
Edited by Hawkeye#1335 on 1/3/2013 5:19 AM PST
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Well D3 was fun for a few weeks and that it is. Once you completed inferno the game became a giant bore fest, in fact, inferno was mind numbingly boring due to the tedious and pointless unrewarding loot system. The major problem is D3 has no depth, no complexity, no real characterization or customization, no real end game, no ladder, an atrocious auction house, no PvP. There are far more things I could add.

I mean these elements alone make D3 a real letdown and mediocre at best. Then you have Path of Exile, where more and more D3 players are moving over to, and rightfully so. The game is far superior in every way. Maybe it will be a good thing for Blizzard to know that there is an ARPG out there that is vastly superior to their own game, it might make them reevaluate their own mediocre product and make a huge amount of additions and drastic changes. Personally I feel there is little hope to D3, too much trying to please the masses, it is not complex or intelligent enough so it will continue to lose its player base.
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Just like a government worker, they never miss a break either. Their sense of dedication to this game and its fans is something I have never seen before in any development cycle of a game.

This game is like the movie Prometheus, all the awesome 3D effects, named actors, and big bank account couldn't save the poor plot, poor pacing, and poor immersion.


Well, to be fair to the dev team, I've no doubt they're dedicated to making D3 as good as their vision allows it to be.

It's just unfortunate their vision involves removing many successful mechanics from D2 and replacing them with thinly disguised MMO mechanics.

Personally I didn't want an exact D2 clone with a graphics facelift, but when you consider what an awesome starting platform they had to work with, it's such a shame how much of it they simply chose to ignore.
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I'm not demanding more, i'm saying hey look at your competition


Opinion here, not a review.

Honestly, that's how I feel, but without caps. That means I'm still playing the game and I'm ok with it as is. However, I expected more. While the game genre thing always leds to discussio, let's compare D3 with games with recent sucess, since a Diablo game always won prizes and was acclaimed by critic/players/etc.

Skyrim: I honestly believe one shouldn't compare things with Skyrim, but Blizzard had history and power enough to do a game people dare to compare with Skyrim. While I understand that blizzard wants the game running in a broader range of computers, meaning worse graphics and other things, it would be really game changing if they managed to do a game with various classes, skills and an open world without demanding a better than average PC.

Ok, it's a different genre, since skyrim is a RPG and D3 is an ARPG. What about Far Cry 3?

Far Cry 3 is a FPS with RPG elements. Even being an FPS, it has more RPG elements than D3, with skill choices and crafting. One could say "in the end of the day you got all weapons, max cash, etc., so the choices are useless, right?" Imo, wrong.

People play games to feel good and it fells good to choose skills, stats, craft items, etc. It feels like solving some puzzle. It doesn't matter if 90% of sorcs in D2 in the beggining of 2012 had 156 str, 25-50 dex, base vit and energy, it was a choice made after some research. Also, you could try something out of the box sometimes, like a titan melee sorc using Rift runeword.

Most people chose to walk the same walk, but they could walk a different road and pay the price, or have fun if they had gear to do so. It didn't felt ok taking out the freedom just because most people weren't using it.

What I don't understand is - what the researchers of far cry 3 and skyrim asked out that d3 researchers didn't.

On a positive note, I like the combat and physics of D3 (maybe if the running speed was higher, I could love it). Even if everything else fails, that core is solid enough. It would be cool to see expansion delivering an open world feeling (which is different than "open world") with extra quests and, like some people suggested, more game modes. Or try to innovate more than other companies, like you always did.

Also, if we consider the possibility of 40 more levels, it's possible to make some research and recreate the item system for expansion packs (like making high end sets roll 250-300 main stat instead of "100-200 or 200-300", add sockets quest as an incentive to roll alternate characters, etc.)

Maybe I'm wrong (probably I am, since this is a personal opinion, not properly a review), since I don't know how blizzard makes their project decisions, but the other companies research teams seem to have different questions (and answers) and happier fans...

All in all, hope someone can use something said on this thread.
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01/03/2013 05:13 AMPosted by Madmax
This Dev team reminds me of the politicians that do the samething with their oh so wonderous programs that nobody asked for or needs but won't make the changes needed because they want to look as if they had a handle on it the entire time. This Dev team is delusional and I doubt many of them play or bother with the game, they closed their eyes, covered their ears and will not listen to anyone.


I won't say anything about the dev team whether or not they're delusional or whatever, but communication between the players should be on a consistent basis close to daily or bi-weekly, not go mute for weeks.

Stare at some trends, on threads and feedback take those into consideration publish them in the news section maybe even quote some people and post their take on it whether they agree or not, and we'll already know if they're listening or not. It's so simple. Players are doing them a favor for ranting on the forums complaining. Stay mute long enough and that ranting and complaining becomes flaming and hatred for the product instead.
I do a bit of both by this time because I'm starting to convince myself nothing really is read that is constructive or provided as an excellent idea that's agreed upon most forum posters, even those that are flaming others/trolling one another.
For me I've been dwelling these forums since August.

All I get is "idiot go play a game you enjoy". My response: "I do play a game I enjoy, I also have these forums open on a separate window on this other monitor I have here known as dual-screening." I'm not incapable of just doing 1 thing at a time if that's what you're insinuating for anyone out there. I play more than 5 games at a time, not simultaneously but you get the idea. Well If I feel hyper enough maybe sometimes a round of dota whil tabbing back and forth during a dragon nest/c9 dungeon run lol.

Want to know some stats? On average a day the forum(General Discussion) back in August had about 5000-12000 per thread and on average a couple thousand for EVERY thread on page 1, over the months it declined and declined and look at it now, a few hundred, some single digit or no response at all.

If that's not population fleeing in flocks within less than a year, you need to wake up yourself. I'm just a customer here and if I'm seeing these trends and doing this over the months just to see the trend and experience of a game being ignored and falling to its knees and losing out to its competitors? PoE is all over general discussion, torchlight2 vs. d3 threads are re-arising again.
Man... I sure wouldn't want to be in that position if I had my own company, I'd step in and say something immediately regardless of if the intake is bad or not, I'd appeal to the player and talk to them. Of course that'd be insane amount of overflow to deal with if the game was popular and thousands of replies going in the question is which one do I take?

Just give some ideas of where direction was headed and see if people majority like or dislike zz. then go implement/integrate, give news, show vids of what's up and then deliver.

I'm extremely passionate about games, you get conversing with me I can go non-stop over the years about all the good and the bad I've played intentionally. Yes I sit through and dig deep and play through boring grindful MMOs RPGs, Adventure and any other genre. And then I recover by playing intriguing addicting ones that have me up sleeping at 6am in the morning and going nuts and bonkers all over life and can't stop campaigning the good game just because it was way too darned fun. The opposite rings true, spread bad game like a plague, but also appeal to those who like more simple systems, or something that's different, it's not all bad or all good for any sole game.

point & click adventure, casual bejeweled twist, bejeweled 3, monkey island, legend of grimrock, xcom, resident evil, final fantasy, chrono trigger, metroid series, resonance point and click adventure, puzzle games like limbo platforming, audio surf, vindictus, ragnarok online, atlantica online, continent of the 9th seal, knight age, silkroad online, savage eden, biosfear(dead), khan online(dead), RF online, survival project(english dead), talesewaver(KR), FF14(died and reborn-reborn looks good), nexus kingdom of the winds, tactical commander/shattered galaxy(first MMO RTS i've played when I was 13), like it just keeps going these are some of the few i've played. for consoles the list is fairly massive as well.

Yes, you may say I have no life. But I enjoy evaluating games I come across and going into every detail down to the pixels to compare with what's new vs. what I've experienced in the past.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 1/3/2013 6:07 AM PST
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01/03/2013 05:44 AMPosted by TheSaint
I disagree, I was on the D3 band wagon since before WWI in france, all they have ever been interested in getting out random mechanics and scrapping a ton of them. I don't know about you but, math is none of the Blizz dev's strong suits in D3. Statistics should have been ran all over this game from the gear, to the stats, to monster damage, to item drops, to xp gain. But you and I both know it wasn't.


Well, keep in mind I was complimenting their dedication, not so much their competence though... hehe.

I agree there was far too little testing - you only need look at all the wild swings to core mechanics made in their earlier patches (the huge IAS fiasco in 1.02, the tripling of repair rates etc) to see that there'd been, amongst other failures, a huge neuron-no-show in the QA and game testing departments.

This latest PvP blog is just another example - amazing to see such a large gaming company essentially say they're throwing out nigh on 2 years worth of work and essentially going back to the drawingboard. If someone in my company said that, heads would literally roll.

So, while their competence is certainly worth questioning, I honestly believe that the devs are just as passionate about the game as we are, it's just that their vision for it is so clouded.
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OP do you play Ragnarok?
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01/03/2013 06:08 AMPosted by Mellodiez
OP do you play Ragnarok?


Used to not anymore.
For like 7 years, that game is hard to keep up with, so many classes & skills & combos & cards & armor & equip & MVPs & WoEs & Endless Tower & Story & Quest & players & bots & gold spammers & priv serv & MMO things & weddings & gathering head gears & swapping palette colors & making every class & asura fisting noobs & machine gun hawk hunter & meteor & sinX'ing people & divesting people's armor off & grand cross sacrifice killing & the new priest class holy bolt spell thing it's just too much info to remember, you get the idea. need some two-hand quicken to type faster here.

To the point where I even made Daily Quests possible on a data base of just killing monsters and refreshes each day to be retaken again to help levelling.. on *ahem* privys...

EDIT: it's like a grandfather of mmo's.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 1/3/2013 6:17 AM PST
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Lol yeah it was such a great game in 2004, untill it went downhill starting from 2006. Still love the BGM tho... wish D3 could make their music better.
Edited by Mellodiez#1866 on 1/3/2013 6:16 AM PST
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01/03/2013 06:15 AMPosted by Mellodiez
Lol yeah it was such a great game in 2004, untill it went downhill starting from 2006. Still love the BGM tho... wish D3 could make their music better.


D3's music is okay, it's not horrid or ear-wrecking, but it's not catchy either or instilling. I had a hard time with the sound due to the theme being fairly colorful. I couldn't decide whether it fit or not as well so it did bug me a little bit. Ragnarok's music is good i applaud SoundTeMP for its good melodies over the years, and the other artists that worked on ragna's soundtrack, they're like personally themed for every area of the game, literally creating a virtual world that is distinguished in many parts.

I know what Jay Wilson said about the themes of D2 and the direction they went with D3 as stated in a 2008 video. I don't know I personally don't agree entirely with what he said, just partially. D2 had colorful monsters as well BUT... I showed my g/f the gameplay of D2 on new year's eve(2012) since she's never played it, she's only seen D3. then she saw it and was like that's D2?! It's very detailed D:... and to go on to say like I think i'd be scared playing this. because of...
Elements of like Line of Sight behind doors in crypts & dungeons played a huge factor in the "darkness/horror" theme as well as faded color scheme. Even mercenaries that you hire that walk through a door don't grant you vision of the hordes behind that small door opening, that cursed light radius that hinders your vision on seeing incoming enemies in the dark, and complete darkness in every corner of your screen revolving around your character.

Not to mention that feeling of isolation seems to settle in just as you play it long enough too. I never felt at any given moment that I was ever accompanied or had help on the way when playing D2. I was pretty scared and like a sissy when I played D2 back then, was like 14 or 13, jesus I rolled a necromancer just so i could summon skeletons/golem so I wouldn't feel so abandoned/hopeless lol.

It's not like a gray-tone of colors, the environments and everythign in d2 are detailed and lush and they are all 2D. It was a game well ahead of its time. I played Vanilla D2 the most, never really got into LOD and with just that in experience I was already pretty hooked and remembered D2 as good. That's why when I compare it to D3 I don't feel like I'm being biased because I'm not including the expansion and its content when doing that comparison.

I could get into LOD if I wanted to I mean it came with my D3 collector's (Yeah that's right I'm d3 collector and here on forums spewing either nonsense or good feedback.). And I'm not influenced by the nostalgia or the onset of people who've played D2 for over 700+ hours or like 4 years. I'm no veteran of D2 but I'm not exactly tunnel visioned by it either. I played d2 offline and LAN with friends, never really got into the battle.net/ladder part of it, something I wish would be included in every game these days rather than a removed feature due to the assumption of technological advances which assumes everyone has internet. IMO Offline lag always beats Online lag hands down.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 1/3/2013 6:30 AM PST
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You can never divorce the fact that D3 is a betrayal of the Diablo franchise.

How would you feel if after "Darknight Rises", a producer followed-up with "Batman & Robin" with George, Arnold and suits with nipples?

Outrage from fans is a natural phenomena when developers, producers, writers failed miserably to balance legacy with commercial interests.

There are dozens of examples from Superman to Star Wars...and D3 has never been an isolated case like many people think it is.

What you see in the forums is the unravelling of Blizzard's first ever disappointment.

But chill, Blizzard is not alone on this one ;)
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Kudos on the wall of text OP. I think you could have provided better arguments, but we are basically of the same mind set.

Jilted lovers of the Diablo franchise. Diablo up and left us for some jerk with money bags, a casual sense of humor, the intellect of a middle school student, and the depth of a paper plate.
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Couple of good ideeas and constructive criticysm...I agree with most...except the fact that you fiind annoying an item that was 50 dolars back then now is 0 ... That's market...Perfect items after beeing found will obsolate the ones less perfect that were expensive...that's the the point of a game...The problem this game has is that soon enough you won't sell anything but perfect items for 1-2 euros...The replayability of the game is so low :(...Well anyway....

The stats alocation beeing uselless is also true...nothing important ...you just level the stats came as you leveled now i stack dex or strg or int combined with vitality...Diablo 2 didn't have much customization in this departamanet either...Strg so you can wear items, dex to have max ctb vitality max or energy for ES sorc... The only difference was in the customization of items, because using an archon plate enigma or a breastplate enigma needed a different point allocation or charms allocation...Well neverthless the point allocation in d3 sucks completly...I'll stack primary status and vitality anytime.
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No one reads or has ideas themselves I'll take it as the game and forum doesn't really care about constructive criticism or feedback at all as everyone so yearns and posts about "Post some constructive criticism or feedback dont just say game sucks without any explanation and such".


What constructive criticism? It's just a long whiny rant without any concrete suggestions.

Legendaries Patch - I don't really recall this being an improvement this should've been there since day1, magics and rares shouldn't be way stronger than an item called Legendary from the get-go only to be rectified months later and deprecating the value of all rares and magics in the process leading those who had them early cash out on "crap rares" considered today.

The item my Wizard currently holds used to yield close to 50.00USD back in JUNE (Notice last login date = August 8 and I know it was that because my friend sold something of similar item stats for 60.00USD and I was short 10 int lower on my weapon and a few DPS few being 5-10 difference not really anything). Today it's worth 0. Whatever go on complain or flame at me saying that's ridiculous. But if you haven't been around since, nothing's really been changed past that IMO.

Legendaries being at their proper power level today is what should've been since day 1. Call me ridiculous if you will for expecting such things but if you think enough it's just the next tier past Rare


Three paragraphs complaining about something that isn't even a problem anymore. It's in the past. That's not something that can be changed moving forward - how is this constructive criticism?

Before you had some sort of decision between Rare & Magic items. Now its just Legendary. Further simplification of the system and to yield only one item of result to roll you somewhat good stats for BiS item or the fact that everyone is raving about them and completely forgetting about Rares and Magics.

You speak of rares or magics and you'll just get laughed at, all everyone talks about is Legendary this that, mempo skorn, manticore blah blah, I haven't played and read enough to know that's all is being mentioned mainly for items and things, which still isn't even fully viable on the new Monster Power...? And one last thing I know Rares are still somewhat useful just as cheap trash gear now until you find your first Legendary and such, but past that you never look back really.


People are obsessed with legendaries, at their own expense. With a few exceptions, many slots still have rares as the potential best in slot if they roll the right affixes at upper end values, and many available rares are better than the majority of legendaries. The reason people are fixated on legendaries is simply a matter of farming efficiency - picking up and identifying rares slows them down, so they ignore everything that isn't brown, or a yellow 1-hander or piece of jewelry since those have the best potential for jackpots.

This fixation upon legendaries is not a result of design, but of laziness.

Why is this not an improvement? Well if I can set the rules of my game's monster and enemies through a slider on multiplier then why wasn't this designed just off Normal Nightmare Hell & Inferno @ level 1?. Rather than having the players go through the game 4x through as an endurance litmus test for each class just to reach Inferno to start trying anything cool, we should've just been able to select Normal or Nightmare or Hell or Inferno and change it if we found it too hard or not between the 4 difficulties, not play the game 4x through just to unlock Inferno per class.


Beating the game on a difficulty and then returning with everything amped up has been a core Diablo feature from the beginning. If Blizzard did what you suggest, then that would have been a classic example people used of the D3 team throwing out beloved features of the Diablo series and replacing it with their own garbage. It also poses a variety of unique problems in of itself, such as having to compress 60 levels of gear into a single playthrough of the acts.

If you hate the whole normal/nightmare/hell thing then guess what? You hate a core part of the Diablo series. Maybe this isn't the game for you?

The nerfing of Inferno difficulty that ensued Monster Power also lead the defeat of any challenge remaining in Diablo 3. You can say "Oh but I bet you can't walk through Inferno on MP10 and do whatever", well argumentatively the responding player could just be like "Well I can walk through it on MP0 regardless and farm items for greater value than you 10x faster and you have nothing to show for it other than you can just kill monsters that just have higher numbers not really any changes or new types of monsters because that's all there is to the game currently.",


The monster power settings are primarily about challenge, not efficiency. Saying that MP eliminates challenge because it doesn't compensate you sufficiently for the loss of efficiency just doesn't make sense. This isn't a competition - you can play at the level you enjoy. You don't have to play the difficulty that gives you the most legendaries/hour.

Long rant about stat points...


There isn't much in your rant about stat points that actually deals with the topic of that section, which is autoallocation. You also don't actually give any constructive criticism here, either - you just complain that D3 doesn't give you choices.

There's nothing wrong with having the basic attributes be simple and easy to understand, as long as there's depth and meaningful choices elsewhere, such as the affixes on loot or other systems. The bigger problem is that these other choices are missing as well. But you don't actually suggest any solutions here. Blizzard isn't going to redesign attributes from the ground up. But they may tweak existing affixes or create new ones or implement new systems offering choices/depth. How about some suggestions along those lines, since they might actually be implemented?

Apart from that the system does it for me and babies it down for me and is practically useless, if it's automatically allocated, why bother even showing any of it to begin with? Just hide it all and leave it at 0 for base stat and have everything reflect on my gear only if the design was so keen on cutting so many features out and simplifying/automating/restricting it for the player.


To give a concrete sense of your character increasing in power. As your character levels, it increases in strength, dexterity, intelligence and vitality at rates that depend on your class. Surely this is fairly obvious.

Paragon Levelling - This is just an extension of your grind, I wouldn't call it an improvement as well, it's just an "illusion" of accomplishment past level 60 which grants nothing but extra "auto-allocated" stats. At first when I saw it being put in I was tempted to re-login and play, but to find out it's just more automated stats even, made it pointless. But after having the thought of just main stat & vit, why doesn't my Paragon levels just tunnel all those stats gained directly into main stat?
It is just a weaker form of levelling from 1-60, just without skills being unlocked. sigh...


Why is it that none of the points you make ever engage with the reasons Blizzard gave for implementing things? At least three reasons were given for implementing paragon levels: to offer an experience similar to grinding out level 99 in D2 for those who wanted it, to give a sense of progress and reward, even if small, to those who spend some time farming but don't end up finding anything, and to ultimately replace the need for MF on gear to address the gear swapping issue.

You'd hit EXTREMELY harder for each class and damage wouldn't be an issue. What is it 400 to main stat at Paragon Level 100? I don't remember but the other ones are like 300 200 100 or something if you added all those straight directly into main stat that's like 600% increase on top of that 400% main stat gain based on my fictional value here to your damage since each point in main stat = +1% damage.

And to think every class can achieve this means your grind suddenly multiplied by like 3000x. Paragon Levelling is just Levelling to level 60 maybe 1000x through. It's not hard to do such a thing for any programmer/game to extend a grind it takes seconds to get the core feature made, and just maybe a week or a day to get the interface/graphics in.

It's just a number extension, say you hit 10000 damage and that's the damage cap, well let's increase and it and pad some zeros and make the cap 10000000000. Let's see you, the player, achieve that now. *facepalm* no difference it's just a bigger number, although in terms of damage and destruction that has more meaning than a "level status" grind. 100 Paragon just means - you've been playing and grinding and doing the same thing for months on end and automating yourself into a simplistic routine; that's how brains deteriorate. In the end you only have "endurance" to show for it.

Go play Silkroad Online and grind 4 million skill points for your character by level 120, and I'll believe you really know what a grind is.


If there was supposed to be a point here, I failed to see it.

Death Timer - Why is there even one when you're in solo play? It hinders not only the player, wastes their precious time, has them sitting there watching a stop watch, and rubbing a message of "You Died" in your face yeah we get it, game over, well let me click the Respawn/Restart button already.

The numerous amount of times dying over and over with your character is just an experience to help learn/build strategy. But forcing them into a death timer that increases as you die more and more is just stupid. I'm sorry to say and that's harsh but it's true. Unless this has been fixed(Which I doubt), then this still holds as a strong argument just for solo players.


... because you're not supposed to be dying repeatedly. Is this even a serious complaint?

The rest of it after the 'infernal machine' bit is just more senseless rambling, not even going to bother quoting that.

That's just ONE idea out of like 15 in my head for improvement already. You might not like it but I only have to say this what are you doing now in Diablo 3? Checking your Auctions or just running the same path of least resistance for the most efficient farm?


There are many deep flaws with what you suggest. The first is that you don't seem to appreciate how difficult it would be to organize that many players in a game like this for an hour-long uninterrupted session.

Another is that it'll either be too difficult for pick-up-groups or way too easy for organized teams.

Another is that the algorithm for determining difficulty would be realistically impossible.

Another is that it's a considerable piece of new content requiring significant resources from the development team (recall that this isn't an MMO - they don't get 15 bucks a month from the entire playerbase) yet does nothing to address any core issues with itemization or customization. In particular, it doesn't actually do anything to address any of the issues you've brought up.
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Alrighty then Saig,

Three paragraphs complaining about something that isn't even a problem anymore. It's in the past. That's not something that can be changed moving forward - how is this constructive criticism?


shifting your items out of rare and just into legendary isn't adding anything new, it's just moving things into another tier, not to mention they all roll the same thing +1 minor effect on the item for some of them, SOME not all, it's not like they contain any new stat or affix or ability or castable active that can be used.

People are obsessed with legendaries, at their own expense. With a few exceptions, many slots still have rares as the potential best in slot if they roll the right affixes at upper end values, and many available rares are better than the majority of legendaries. The reason people are fixated on legendaries is simply a matter of farming efficiency - picking up and identifying rares slows them down, so they ignore everything that isn't brown, or a yellow 1-hander or piece of jewelry since those have the best potential for jackpots.

This fixation upon legendaries is not a result of design, but of laziness.


But earlier you said that isn't even a problem anymore so you're refuting yourself now saying some rares are BiS than legendaries? so the problem was never fixed? huh?

01/03/2013 07:07 AMPosted by Saigyouji
The monster power settings are primarily about challenge, not efficiency. Saying that MP eliminates challenge because it doesn't compensate you sufficiently for the loss of efficiency just doesn't make sense. This isn't a competition - you can play at the level you enjoy. You don't have to play the difficulty that gives you the most legendaries/hour.


A subliminal point about control here, more like if you can set those rules for yourself why am I not able to change my skill modifiers as well then? Why does Blizzard hold the entire keys to them and never is affected in anyway by player to change the modifiers further by investing time/power or some sort of allocation into the skill itself, not just be a multiplier on damage and gear.
The game is about efficiency to disagree means you disagree with Blizzard themselves.
01/03/2013 07:07 AMPosted by Saigyouji
You also don't actually give any constructive criticism here, either - you just complain that D3 doesn't give you choices.


Um... talking about D3 giving no choices is part of feedback. ??? Or is complaining about having 0 choice in the game not a problem? I'll feed you a piece of paper draw 1 straight line on it and say here, edit anything on this line and the game is not for you.

01/03/2013 07:07 AMPosted by Saigyouji
There's nothing wrong with having the basic attributes be simple and easy to understand, as long as there's depth and meaningful choices elsewhere, such as the affixes on loot or other systems. The bigger problem is that these other choices are missing as well. But you don't actually suggest any solutions here. Blizzard isn't going to redesign attributes from the ground up. But they may tweak existing affixes or create new ones or implement new systems offering choices/depth. How about some suggestions along those lines, since they might actually be implemented?


Yeah there is nothing wrong with it, but you just said yourself depth & meaningful choices elsewhere, what do you look for on gear? It's not a hard formula I haven't played since August here let me help you out, Main Stat + Vit + armor + all res + crit chance + crit hit chance + IAS + high DPS roll. Did I miss anything? No? Then uh oh your point is pointless.
Yes? Then do tell.
Meaningful choices yeah right, I never have to search for anything else apart from those.
Oh and Main Stat + vit is a given so really it's Armor + AR + Crit Chance + CHD + IAS + highDPS.

There's dozens of games on the market to take example from, if I provided my own and they implemented it I should go make Devil 1 2 and 3 and charge you all 59.99 for it. I am player here not a designer. Go look at Torchlight 2 statistic systems, far more meaningful already than what we have here. But you say simple is good, Did you miss the whole reference of the Ragnarok Example? What the f*** are you even saying.

01/03/2013 07:07 AMPosted by Saigyouji
To give a concrete sense of your character increasing in power. As your character levels, it increases in strength, dexterity, intelligence and vitality at rates that depend on your class. Surely this is fairly obvious.


And have it be the same across the 10 million others who might roll this class and develop in the exact same path? Surely that was obvious at what I was getting at. The constructive criticism and feedback? "Don't herd us like sheep and have us all walk through 1 gate, give us some deviation" <-- that wasn't obvious?
Dont be absurd. By levelling up you assume already that you're getting stronger, you have skills unlocking for crying out loud, if the player really is that stupid that they need stats to reassure them of that especially when they have 0 control over it and don't even care if it added or not, it's pointless to show it. Should just have the addition of gear worn only, to get an accurate sense of what your gear is supplying then. Or do you still completely disagree?

01/03/2013 07:07 AMPosted by Saigyouji
Why is it that none of the points you make ever engage with the reasons Blizzard gave for implementing things? At least three reasons were given for implementing paragon levels: to offer an experience similar to grinding out level 99 in D2 for those who wanted it, to give a sense of progress and reward, even if small, to those who spend some time farming but don't end up finding anything, and to ultimately replace the need for MF on gear to address the gear swapping issue.


Because in threads months ago I elaborated on this already, and you just summed it up very nicely saving me most of the trouble of re-explaining it. Notice what YOU just said.
A re-implementation to bring nostalgia for D2? that's not innovation that's resurrecting an OLD system, and extending a GRIND, tediousness, and boredom. Now for the coup de grace. You say to ultimately replace the need for MF on gear <-- THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MOMENT. What you just said adamantly suggests that Paragon then DUMBS DOWN THE GAME FURTHER... zz, now you don't need to look for MF lets cut that stat out and affix, and earlier you said meaningful choices & other things to look for. Contradictory at best here.

Not only do you not need to look for MF anymore it also rolls on equipment while you don't need it anymore furthering TRASH loot to be found and de-valuing anything that has MF that you find for yourself. "Oh this has MF f*** thats another stat slot wasted on something I NEVER need again" ... are you serious sir? Don't forget it's not just MF its GOLD FIND also so double that stupidity before you say i'm not offering constructive criticism.

01/03/2013 07:07 AMPosted by Saigyouji
... because you're not supposed to be dying repeatedly. Is this even a serious complaint?


Go play Demon's/Dark Souls and tell me how many times you die on your first playthrough plz, if you couldn't even care to go try then don't even bother questioning that argument, you're inexperienced. If you get through it without dying once at all for the entire game on your first playthrough, you're either hacking, following a guide, or you're not like anybody in the world who can think so genius-like and form strategy so well in tune as if you knew the future and had the ability of precognition.
And to answer your question, yes it is a serious complaint.

There are many deep flaws with what you suggest. The first is that you don't seem to appreciate how difficult it would be to organize that many players in a game like this for an hour-long uninterrupted session.

Another is that it'll either be too difficult for pick-up-groups or way too easy for organized teams.

Another is that the algorithm for determining difficulty would be realistically impossible.


What are the deep flaws? It was an idea a suggestion if any. How difficult it would be to organize that many players in a game like this for an hour long uninterrupted session? Dude obviously it won't be an hour long as people get more experienced at it, but an hour is a pretty good measurement you ever play dota2? 10 people 5v5, how hard is that to arrange they got enough good algorithms to matchmake ppl of similar skill level so why can't an algorithm be created to determine DPS & player accumulated hours and gear & efficiency on their runs when Blizzard claims D3 is about effiiciency hmm???? Ever hear of greedy algorithms? Huh? Realistically it's impossible to algorithmically search through databases of like input sizes of 3 billion and such but they still get an accurate overall estimate. What the?!

01/03/2013 07:07 AMPosted by Saigyouji
Another is that it's a considerable piece of new content requiring significant resources from the development team (recall that this isn't an MMO - they don't get 15 bucks a month from the entire playerbase) yet does nothing to address any core issues with itemization or customization. In particular, it doesn't actually do anything to address any of the issues you've brought up.


As for content you should subject yourself to more quality FREE MMOs like Dragon Nest, Rusty Hearts, C9 or Vindictus before you even start talkign about content & budget release. Blizzard isn't poor, please don't be one of those people. Those free games get big enough content updates and don't even cost a penny to begin playing nor does it take any to experience that content and its updates. What? you're going to say I said MMOs? Play those games first before even judging, most of them are DUNGEON crawlers that are practically ARPGs like Diablo 3 just on a different camera angle. Get Real.

Please go do some homework b4 you say my suggestion has flaws without providing any details to what these flaws are or the only one here that's flawed is you by coming up with that conclusion and offering no insight at how you got there. As stated in my first post "post reasons if you're going to argue against it or it's just lame poetry of a troll/fanboy..." and such.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 1/3/2013 8:02 AM PST
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shifting your items out of rare and just into legendary isn't adding anything new, it's just moving things into another tier, not to mention they all roll the same thing +1 minor effect on the item for some of them, SOME not all, it's not like they contain any new stat or affix or ability or castable active that can be used.


er... have you looked at legendaries? Many of them have completely unique affixes (Schaeffer's Hammer, Butcher's Sickle, Three Hundredth Spear, Andarial's Visage, etc etc etc) and many others have affixes that can't normally spawn on those items (Inna's pants). Also, most uniques are worse than common rares already available. Azurewrath has a topend DPS of 922. That's not a tier above rares, it's a lower damage weapon with an unusually high chance to freeze, and a unique on-hit effect against undead. You're simply incorrect on this point.

But earlier you said that isn't even a problem anymore so you're refuting yourself now saying some rares are BiS than legendaries? so the problem was never fixed? huh?


I never said that. I said that you were complaining about something in the past (a change that should have been implemented earlier). Rares are still BiS in most slots and I think this is a very good thing. In fact, rares being potentially the best items in the game was a highly asked for feature.

A subliminal point about control here, more like if you can set those rules for yourself why am I not able to change my skill modifiers as well then? Why does Blizzard hold the entire keys to them and never is affected in anyway by player to change the modifiers further by investing time/power or some sort of allocation into the skill itself, not just be a multiplier on damage and gear.
The game is about efficiency to disagree means you disagree with Blizzard themselves.


I'm sorry, but I just don't understand what you're trying to say here. I've read it three times but it still doesn't make sense to me.

Um... talking about D3 giving no choices is part of feedback. ??? Or is complaining about having 0 choice in the game not a problem? I'll feed you a piece of paper draw 1 straight line on it and say here, edit anything on this line and the game is not for you.


Of course it's a problem. But pointing out a well-known problem isn't constructive criticism. Constructive criticism is criticism that actually helps bring to light or to address problems, not simply harp on them.

Yeah there is nothing wrong with it, but you just said yourself depth & meaningful choices elsewhere, what do you look for on gear?


Did you even read what I said?

There's nothing wrong with having the basic attributes be simple and easy to understand, as long as there's depth and meaningful choices elsewhere, such as the affixes on loot or other systems. The bigger problem is that these other choices are missing as well.


The lack of meaningful choices and depth IS a problem, in fact, that's one of the few real problems with the game alluded to in your long rant, but you've not suggested much in the way of a solution here. You just described another game that has a bunch of different attributes. For all I know those attributes could themselves reduce to some basic formula where you seek specific attributes at the expense of others.

Did I miss anything?


My entire point, it seems. Though you did miss the +gold/globe radius affix, which is a very nice affix to have.

And have it be the same across the 10 million others who might roll this class and develop in the exact same path? Surely that was obvious at what I was getting at. The constructive criticism and feedback? "Don't herd us like sheep and have us all walk through 1 gate, give us some deviation" <-- that wasn't obvious?


Of course that was obvious. But you miss the point again, which is that automatically improving in base attributes in a fixed way serves a purpose despite your rhetorical question implying otherwise. And that purpose is served even if the D3 team failed to offer meaningful choices elsewhere.

Dont be absurd. By levelling up you assume already that you're getting stronger, you have skills unlocking for crying out loud, if the player really is that stupid that they need stats to reassure them of that especially when they have 0 control over it and don't even care if it added or not, it's pointless to show it.


huh? But by showing it, it quantifies exactly how much stronger you're getting. Why on earth would you want them to hide that information?

A re-implementation to bring nostalgia for D2? that's not innovation that's resurrecting an OLD system, and extending a GRIND, tediousness, and boredom.


Except that many people enjoyed that old system. I agree it's a grind. That's why I don't do it. That's also why I'm grateful the bonuses are sufficiently minor so that I don't feel punished for not doing it.

Now for the coup de grace. You say to ultimately replace the need for MF on gear <-- THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A MOMENT. What you just said adamantly suggests that Paragon then DUMBS DOWN THE GAME FURTHER... zz, now you don't need to look for MF lets cut that stat out and affix, and earlier you said meaningful choices & other things to look for. Contradictory at best here.


... you don't even know what I said "earlier", do you? There's no contradiction. I said there NEEDS to be meaningful choices, but that there aren't. How is that contradicting the factual assertion that paragon levels were implemented in part to eliminate the need for gear swapping?

ot only do you not need to look for MF anymore it also rolls on equipment while you don't need it anymore furthering TRASH loot to be found and de-valuing anything that has MF that you find for yourself. "Oh this has MF f*** thats another stat slot wasted on something I NEVER need again" ... are you serious sir? Don't forget it's not just MF its GOLD FIND also so double that stupidity before you say i'm not offering constructive criticism.


Define constructive criticism. I get the feeling you have no idea what that actually means.

Also, are you telling me that loot should only roll affixes that have value to you? There are people who don't grind paragon levels (like me) who benefit from MF gear. We are willing to trade for that MF gear, so MF rolling on items increases its value. Problem?

Go play Demon's/Dark Souls and tell me how many times you die on your first playthrough plz, if you couldn't even care to go try then don't even bother questioning that argument, you're inexperienced


This is Diablo. Different game, different design. If you're dying a lot in Diablo 3, then you're doing something very, very wrong.

10 people 5v5, how hard is that to arrange they got enough good algorithms to matchmake ppl of similar skill level so why can't an algorithm be created to determine DPS & player accumulated hours and gear & efficiency on their runs when Blizzard claims D3 is about effiiciency hmm???? Ever hear of greedy algorithms? Huh? Realistically it's impossible to algorithmically search through databases of like input sizes of 3 billion and such but they still get an accurate overall estimate. What the?!


Again you seem to have missed the point -_-. DPS, hours played, and other metrics are not reliable indicators as to how one will contribute into this scenario.

As for content you should subject yourself to more quality FREE MMOs like Dragon Nest, Rusty Hearts, C9 or Vindictus before you even start talkign about content & budget release.


You seem to have missed the whole point about this mode failing to address any of the problems you raised.

Please go do some homework b4 you say my suggestion has flaws without providing any details to what these flaws are or the only one here that's flawed is you by coming up with that conclusion and offering no insight at how you got there.


I've been consistently precise as to what I'm objecting to and why. You're just talking out of your rear at this point.
Edited by Saigyouji#1546 on 1/3/2013 8:37 AM PST
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01/03/2013 12:13 AMPosted by KradisZ
"Well I can walk through it on MP0 regardless and farm items for greater value than you 10x faster

[/thread] [/game]
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