Diablo® III

Criticising Diablo 3

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Answer me this question.

Does Path of Exile have a persistent world that is shared by many players at the same time. Where you can meet and team up with other players. If so then it is an MMO. Having a persistent world is what an MMO is all about.


It does NOT. It works very much the same way Diablo 3's online functions.

And who CARES if it's an MMO or not. Valve adds free content to their games and none of them are even CLOSE to being an MMO.

THe point is Blizzard has a constant revenue source called the RMAH (micro transactions in other games). This alone should justify ongoing content development.

Lets also not forget the whole game is designed to push you to spend 1000's of hours on ONE character. Much like an MMO.

The simple fact is, Blizzard has an archaic old fashioned business plan = Boxed copy and DONE.

This is 2013. Things are different in the gaming industry since Diablo 2. People wouldn't be asking for continued content if the game wasn't set up in a way that would easily facilitate it AND have such a lack of content in the base game.


I see then here is what we can do, since they obviously make in the trillions of dollars per hour in the RMAH and only pay about a penny every 10 years for maintenance and PayPay fees. We can camp at their door step until Blizz churns out new content on the rate of once per hour, okay. Back to reality.

I say that the RMAH is not making them a ton of money compared to their MMO subs SC2 and WoW. The amount of profit it generates is no doubt pocket change. There is also the overhead that is involved in maintaining the servers as well. Plus the overhead of PayPals fees as well for the money transfers. So that amount of money that it pulls in is only a drop in the bucket for Blizz. Heck I say that the box sales of D2, that is if it is still selling would probably outstrip the RMAH in profits.
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01/14/2013 08:32 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
That is why simple systems cannot cut it, only one that is very deep and rich in it's choices will stand a good chance at giving the player true customization.


SIGH ZZZ Already SAID ALL THIS ON POST 1 THEN WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ARGUE W/ ME ABOUT -_-. //jesus3rdpartyfacepalm
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 1/14/2013 9:30 PM PST
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Yngwey
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If you haven’t played in a few months, you might have missed out on some of the item improvements we’ve made along the way. In terms of patch 1.0.4, you might want to check out the blog we did regarding Legendary Item Improvements as well as the various overall item improvements we made in patch 1.0.5.


01/08/2013 04:15 PMPosted by Yngwey
If you haven’t played in a few months, you might have missed out on some of the item improvements we’ve made along the way. In terms of patch 1.0.4, you might want to check out the blog we did regarding Legendary Item Improvements as well as the various overall item improvements we made in patch 1.0.5.


This is actually a intresting point. I have the feeling that the latest changes did not quite achieve what they intended, meaning many legendaries where supposed to support more build diversity and i feel they ended up doing the exact opposite. Before 1.04 everyone wanted about the same stats that they want now, but the best way to go about it was with rares, that left the option of at least choosing the color of your gear, wich made toons feel more unique. After the new legenderies everyone want's pretty much not only the same stats but also the same undyable gear, making our characters look somewath generic. You even see people saying "oh i have a cm wizard", or "a cyclone monk", or a "WW barb". I consider the lack of uniqueness the major problem in this game at the moment, and that problem comes from everyone wanting very simmilar or even the same stats on gear, this is the core problem of itemization in general.

What happens is some stats are simply more efficient than others in making a powerfull character wich in turn makes most of the players desire these same stats wich in turn shift the value of the itens towards a very small group of drops, making the great majority of drops valueless, being this is the true root of the "i never get good drops" problem, because the reward sistem in drops is related to the value of a said drop and the value is related to how many people desire that iten and how rare that drop is. So this is why patch 1.04 was acctually a step backwards in my opinion.

I would love to see a complete itemization rework, as painfull as can be for the people who grinded billions and spent it on his own gear (myself being one of those), or spent a lot of cash in his toon, this is a crucial fix to the game, having more variety on the desireble stats leading to a variety of builds, would promote more costumisation and make the "iten hunt" endgame more rewarding.


Get rid of legendary and set items completely. Rework the stat spawn options of rares to a wider margin per ilvl but with a short standard deviation resulting in a high percent of rares having say 6 mid range stats, a few percent of rares having 2 or 3 out of 6 massive stats and a very small percent of rares having all good stats. Also each stat per class has to have a decent amount of meaning so that its not just a choice of stacking 1 main stat gear and gem wise.

Its absolutely ridiculous that you guys (dev) rant and rave that you are creating a "something special" feel with the legendary and set items when the end result is that there is a "best" item for each slot and each class because they all spawn the same stats with the same name. Now everyone is running around looking the same, you can tell what someone elses character is wearing without even looking. Imagine if there were no legendary or set items and you had the thousands upon thousands of rares that you could try to make a good build from. everyone would be wearing different randomly created armour using different randomly created weapons etc etc...... Much more unique.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
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Think about this. Ever single game has auto stat allocation. Sure you can choose where you want to put them but we all know that doesn't happen and never has. People just log onto their favorite "here is how you do it" web site and copy a build. If you didn't you failed and fell to everyone who did. Plus every single game is just another grind. Some are just presented differently but none the less they are really just the same. You grind out your levels then you grind out your gear. Tired of people thinking that there are MMO's and RPG's out there that are not grind based because they all are.
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Yngwey
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If you haven’t played in a few months, you might have missed out on some of the item improvements we’ve made along the way. In terms of patch 1.0.4, you might want to check out the blog we did regarding Legendary Item Improvements as well as the various overall item improvements we made in patch 1.0.5.


01/08/2013 04:15 PMPosted by Yngwey


This is actually a intresting point. I have the feeling that the latest changes did not quite achieve what they intended, meaning many legendaries where supposed to support more build diversity and i feel they ended up doing the exact opposite. Before 1.04 everyone wanted about the same stats that they want now, but the best way to go about it was with rares, that left the option of at least choosing the color of your gear, wich made toons feel more unique. After the new legenderies everyone want's pretty much not only the same stats but also the same undyable gear, making our characters look somewath generic. You even see people saying "oh i have a cm wizard", or "a cyclone monk", or a "WW barb". I consider the lack of uniqueness the major problem in this game at the moment, and that problem comes from everyone wanting very simmilar or even the same stats on gear, this is the core problem of itemization in general.

What happens is some stats are simply more efficient than others in making a powerfull character wich in turn makes most of the players desire these same stats wich in turn shift the value of the itens towards a very small group of drops, making the great majority of drops valueless, being this is the true root of the "i never get good drops" problem, because the reward sistem in drops is related to the value of a said drop and the value is related to how many people desire that iten and how rare that drop is. So this is why patch 1.04 was acctually a step backwards in my opinion.

I would love to see a complete itemization rework, as painfull as can be for the people who grinded billions and spent it on his own gear (myself being one of those), or spent a lot of cash in his toon, this is a crucial fix to the game, having more variety on the desireble stats leading to a variety of builds, would promote more costumisation and make the "iten hunt" endgame more rewarding.


Get rid of legendary and set items completely. Rework the stat spawn options of rares to a wider margin per ilvl but with a short standard deviation resulting in a high percent of rares having say 6 mid range stats, a few percent of rares having 2 or 3 out of 6 massive stats and a very small percent of rares having all good stats. Also each stat per class has to have a decent amount of meaning so that its not just a choice of stacking 1 main stat gear and gem wise.

Its absolutely ridiculous that you guys (dev) rant and rave that you are creating a "something special" feel with the legendary and set items when the end result is that there is a "best" item for each slot and each class because they all spawn the same stats with the same name. Now everyone is running around looking the same, you can tell what someone elses character is wearing without even looking. Imagine if there were no legendary or set items and you had the thousands upon thousands of rares that you could try to make a good build from. everyone would be wearing different randomly created armour using different randomly created weapons etc etc...... Much more unique.


Look there will always be best in slot item regardless of how you work your items. Unless you homogenize all affixes to be able to do the same thing. Best in slot has to do with numbers and games always revolve around numbers. The only other way is to put all of the important stats on the characters. Giving players a ton of points to spend and making all of the gear without any affixes. Where it is just for show only. Where it provides no real boost to your character's performance.
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Wall of Text crits you for 290,000 damage.
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Get rid of legendary and set items completely. Rework the stat spawn options of rares to a wider margin per ilvl but with a short standard deviation resulting in a high percent of rares having say 6 mid range stats, a few percent of rares having 2 or 3 out of 6 massive stats and a very small percent of rares having all good stats. Also each stat per class has to have a decent amount of meaning so that its not just a choice of stacking 1 main stat gear and gem wise.

Its absolutely ridiculous that you guys (dev) rant and rave that you are creating a "something special" feel with the legendary and set items when the end result is that there is a "best" item for each slot and each class because they all spawn the same stats with the same name. Now everyone is running around looking the same, you can tell what someone elses character is wearing without even looking. Imagine if there were no legendary or set items and you had the thousands upon thousands of rares that you could try to make a good build from. everyone would be wearing different randomly created armour using different randomly created weapons etc etc...... Much more unique.


Look there will always be best in slot item regardless of how you work your items. Unless you homogenize all affixes to be able to do the same thing. Best in slot has to do with numbers and games always revolve around numbers. The only other way is to put all of the important stats on the characters. Giving players a ton of points to spend and making all of the gear without any affixes. Where it is just for show only. Where it provides no real boost to your character's performance.


No response to your disproven PoE=MMO statements?
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Great idea about the 'arreat invasion'. I hope they take it into consideration.

I would like them to fix this thread too. It has some nice ideas but need a little bit of clean up (removal of some rage messages, offenses, trolls, etc).
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01/15/2013 12:24 PMPosted by Mith
No response to your disproven PoE=MMO statements?


So then the other websites that I was looking at got it wrong, then I will ask you a question if you do not mind. Is there any place in that game where you can physically see other players that you are not teamed up with. For the purposes of forming teams ans socializing?

Besides that what do I need to add to your statement, hmm.
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01/15/2013 03:36 AMPosted by Barlion
Sure you can choose where you want to put them but we all know that doesn't happen and never has. People just log onto their favorite "here is how you do it" web site and copy a build.


That is a gross assumption on how the old playerbase plays - You wouldnt per chance be a member of the dev team at all ?

I myself never read a build guide once - D2 was fun because i made up my own builds... i didnt play on battle.net, just SP and LAN and i had a blast... and I'm sure im not the only person who played this way... I think the amount of stat point threads reflects this..

Yes, there are those who played cookie-cutter , im guessing a lot of those players are still sticking around D3 as for them, i can see how nothing has changed..
Edited by MGH#1860 on 1/15/2013 5:20 PM PST
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No response to your disproven PoE=MMO statements?


So then the other websites that I was looking at got it wrong, then I will ask you a question if you do not mind. Is there any place in that game where you can physically see other players that you are not teamed up with. For the purposes of forming teams ans socializing?

Besides that what do I need to add to your statement, hmm.


Like a chat lobby? Like, I dunno, battle.net?

Also, you didn't think to check, I dunno, the actual game website?

Even if there's a central town hub, but the entire active world where you go out solo or in groups to kill monsters, find loot, use your skills, and in all effects play the actual game, is instanced and random and unique to each individual and group every time they go out into it, or in other words to answer your previous question, it is not a persistent world, are you going to try to change your own definition of an MMORPG to suit your argument? I mean, if I wanted to casually make up whatever loose definitions I wanted to, then Diablo III could be an MMORPG too, right? I can chat/socialize with other players on battle.net and view their character profiles before I decide to team up with them and join a game to go out and actually play. Battle.net is persistent even if the semi-random world of Diablo III is not.
Edited by Mith#1762 on 1/15/2013 5:25 PM PST
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90 Troll Mage
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Just saying Diablo 3 is missing so so so much.

Yes a good chat lobby is one.

Who the heck had the idea do change a award winning game almost 100%?

Prolly activision>> They ruined the company. Shareholders win, customers lose.
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01/15/2013 05:21 PMPosted by Mith


So then the other websites that I was looking at got it wrong, then I will ask you a question if you do not mind. Is there any place in that game where you can physically see other players that you are not teamed up with. For the purposes of forming teams ans socializing?

Besides that what do I need to add to your statement, hmm.


Like a chat lobby? Like, I dunno, battle.net?

Also, you didn't think to check, I dunno, the actual game website?

Even if there's a central town hub, but the entire active world where you go out solo or in groups to kill monsters, find loot, use your skills, and in all effects play the actual game, is instanced and random and unique to each individual and group every time they go out into it, or in other words to answer your previous question, it is not a persistent world, are you going to try to change your own definition of an MMORPG to suit your argument? I mean, if I wanted to casually make up whatever loose definitions I wanted to, then Diablo III could be an MMORPG too, right? I can chat/socialize with other players on battle.net and view their character profiles before I decide to team up with them and join a game to go out and actually play. Battle.net is persistent even if the semi-random world of Diablo III is not.


No, I was just asking a question. I just wanted to know since I am obviously not in the closed beta. If the game had a central hub where players meet up and have the opportunity to form teams. If not then you are saying it is like D3 where you have solo play when you hit start game. And you have a button to join a public game.

Now if you do not know for sure because you are not in the closed beta then I do not know what to say in response.
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Like a chat lobby? Like, I dunno, battle.net?

Also, you didn't think to check, I dunno, the actual game website?
Even if there's a central town hub, but the entire active world where you go out solo or in groups to kill monsters, find loot, use your skills, and in all effects play the actual game, is instanced and random and unique to each individual and group every time they go out into it, or in other words to answer your previous question, it is not a persistent world, are you going to try to change your own definition of an MMORPG to suit your argument? I mean, if I wanted to casually make up whatever loose definitions I wanted to, then Diablo III could be an MMORPG too, right? I can chat/socialize with other players on battle.net and view their character profiles before I decide to team up with them and join a game to go out and actually play. Battle.net is persistent even if the semi-random world of Diablo III is not.


No, I was just asking a question. I just wanted to know since I am obviously not in the closed beta. If the game had a central hub where players meet up and have the opportunity to form teams. If not then you are saying it is like D3 where you have solo play when you hit start game. And you have a button to join a public game.

Now if you do not know for sure because you are not in the closed beta then I do not know what to say in response.


I'd like you to answer the speculation.

If it has a central town but everything where you kill monsters, collect loot, and otherwise play the game is instanced, random, unique, and non-persistant to each individual and group, does it not then no longer fit your previous definition of an MMO?

What would make such a town fundamentally different from something like battle.net? Just because you can walk around in-game without anything to actually do? Because as you stipulated, battle.net allows you to socialize, meet up with, and inspect players before you form parties.

Would you then alter your definition of MMO to better suit your argument?
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No, I was just asking a question. I just wanted to know since I am obviously not in the closed beta. If the game had a central hub where players meet up and have the opportunity to form teams. If not then you are saying it is like D3 where you have solo play when you hit start game. And you have a button to join a public game.

Now if you do not know for sure because you are not in the closed beta then I do not know what to say in response.


I'd like you to answer the speculation.

If it has a central town but everything where you kill monsters, collect loot, and otherwise play the game is instanced, random, unique, and non-persistant to each individual and group, does it not then no longer fit your previous definition of an MMO?

What would make such a town fundamentally different from something like battle.net? Just because you can walk around in-game without anything to actually do? Because as you stipulated, battle.net allows you to socialize, meet up with, and inspect players before you form parties.

Would you then alter your definition of MMO to better suit your argument?


There is a big difference if you can physically see players moving around in a central hub. As opposed to D2's just seeing them as pictures at the bottom of the screen. Or seeing their battletag in the chat. That is a really huge difference. No I am not talking about MMO here I just wanted to know if PoE has a central hub where you can see other players moving around.

It is like asking how do you form teams in that game. Do you have a join public game like this game? Is there a central hub like I mentioned where you can team up. Or is it set up where you create a named game like D2's system.

I am trying to get away from the MMO term right now and wondering how do players team up in that game.
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I'd like you to answer the speculation.

If it has a central town but everything where you kill monsters, collect loot, and otherwise play the game is instanced, random, unique, and non-persistant to each individual and group, does it not then no longer fit your previous definition of an MMO?

What would make such a town fundamentally different from something like battle.net? Just because you can walk around in-game without anything to actually do? Because as you stipulated, battle.net allows you to socialize, meet up with, and inspect players before you form parties.

Would you then alter your definition of MMO to better suit your argument?


There is a big difference if you can physically see players moving around in a central hub. As opposed to D2's just seeing them as pictures at the bottom of the screen. Or seeing their battletag in the chat. That is a really huge difference. No I am not talking about MMO here I just wanted to know if PoE has a central hub where you can see other players moving around.

It is like asking how do you form teams in that game. Do you have a join public game like this game? Is there a central hub like I mentioned where you can team up. Or is it set up where you create a named game like D2's system.

I am trying to get away from the MMO term right now and wondering how do players team up in that game.


1) What is so fundamentally different from a central town hub and a chat+party interface like battle.net besides aesthetics and immersion? As you previously tried to argue, it is a persistent world and offers players the ability to socialize and group up. This has been reduced to, at best for you, a persistent hub that offers no more ability to socialize and group up than does battle.net or Steam.

2) What purpose does any of this have for your argument? Do you even have an argument anymore? I only ask because this stemmed from your desperate attempt to defend the lack of content additions to Diablo III on the grounds that other games are either simpler or are MMOs, to which you have been rebutted that the content additions to Diablo III have been as simple as content additions to mobile games (number tweaking for legendaries, monster power, and paragon, and simple recycling of models and systems for infernal machine), and that you don't need to be an MMO to have a better business model than Diablo III that offers a constant source of income and frequent updates. In fact, if we want to just (wrongfully) concede that PoE is an MMO, it hurts your argument because then we can present an MMO that functions without a subscription cost or even a simple upfront box cost.
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90 Human Death Knight
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Just so you know.. ShadowAegis really takes most of the enjoyment out of the forums. Please, my fine young friend, learn your source material before arguing in circles at shadows.
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