Diablo® III

Criticising Diablo 3

01/08/2013 07:18 AMPosted by Crocodilius
The actual original D3 was to be an MMO FYI.


Hell, Titan could be a Diablo MMO.
There are so many conflicting rumours
that it isn't a new IP or an FPS.

I know what the former dudes went on to do.
I have Hellgate, both Torchlights.
Again, neither of which is on the level of D2.
Path of Exile has been in beta for what? over a year?
I don't know when it's ever coming out so i can't
really throw my sense in on it.

You know what amazes the hell out of me?
To my knowledge, no other game has utilized the
Runeword system or anything like it to this point,
which is insane.


Titan is an MMO I think. Diablo MMO nope, never going to come to life in the next decade.
Titan should show something soon after Diablo 3 dropping faith in Blizzard so much. You speak of D3 anywhere outside of D3 forums chances are "D3 sucks" is the response.

Former guys went on to their own things. I won't say anything about Hellgate that was an attempt to make an MMO resembling to Diablo without actually copying diablo or having it as a foundation premise or brand name title that D3 sucked the life out of to bring disappointment globally @ Blizzard. Plus it lives on in Korea.

Torchlight seems to be just a re-establishment of the Diablo franchise.

PoE beign in beta for over a year, I don't see a problem here? Diablo 3 was in beta for what? A couple of months and a weekend for open beta? uh... yeah...

Not to mention PoE doesn't have a mass budget like D3 does so them having a beta be so long and not raising cost issues is pretty adequate and amazing if you ask me, and open beta was announced to be jan 23 already. If they deliver on that then gg, which I doubt they'll retract.

There's games out there that uses a "runeword" system. =_= go do some research there's plenty zz.
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Thanks for taking the time to craft such a constructive and well-intentioned thread. We really do appreciate the passion of Diablo III players like yourself, and you have some very fair points and feedback, so /highfive for that!

And how an old game had systems inspired already to lead into multiple diversities and that game is full of skill trees and is immensively popular, so those telling me skill trees & stat points is outdated, tell that to a 12 year old game still surviving and is massively going on updates still. It's only outdated if your skill trees/stats don't actually offer any equality between power & variation.


While we enjoyed allocating stats and having intricate skill trees in Diablo II (as well as the benefits they provided), we ultimately feel the current stat and skill system is better for Diablo III. We heavily iterated on the skill trees and stat points in Diablo III for quite some time, but we felt that they simply didn’t fit the direction we wanted to go with the game. They added artificial complexity to the game, but didn’t actually add much in the way of customization. They also often rendered a remarkable penalty, in that if you mis-allocated a stat point or skill the wrong way, or simply wanted to change it at a later point in time, you were out of luck, as you were locked to your original choice.

We strongly feel that in general, players will know whether or not they like a particular skill or play style only after they’ve had a chance to try it out for themselves. And while there definitely is some intrigue and fun to permanently committing yourself to a particular character design, it’s not what we envision for Diablo III. We want players to be able to experiment and find a combination of skills and runes that they enjoy and that fit them the best. We also don’t believe that the current skill system would really benefit from a free allocation of stats, either. We think that players can achieve a sizable level of customization through runes, and that this system fits in much better with the overall design of the game.

You speak of rares or magics and you'll just get laughed at, all everyone talks about is Legendary this that, mempo skorn, manticore blah blah, I haven't played and read enough to know that's all is being mentioned mainly for items and things, which still isn't even fully viable on the new Monster Power...? And one last thing I know Rares are still somewhat useful just as cheap trash gear now until you find your first Legendary and such, but past that you never look back really


If you haven’t played in a few months, you might have missed out on some of the item improvements we’ve made along the way. In terms of patch 1.0.4, you might want to check out the blog we did regarding Legendary Item Improvements as well as the various overall item improvements we made in patch 1.0.5.

Regarding the death timer: The incrementing death timer is actually being removed in 1.0.7.
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Cool no death timer
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Regarding the death timer: The incrementing death timer is actually being removed in 1.0.7.


Woot!!!
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Thanks for taking the time to craft such a constructive and well-intentioned thread. We really do appreciate the passion of Diablo III players like yourself, and you have some very fair points and feedback, so /highfive for that!

And how an old game had systems inspired already to lead into multiple diversities and that game is full of skill trees and is immensively popular, so those telling me skill trees & stat points is outdated, tell that to a 12 year old game still surviving and is massively going on updates still. It's only outdated if your skill trees/stats don't actually offer any equality between power & variation.


While we enjoyed allocating stats and having intricate skill trees in Diablo II (as well as the benefits they provided), we ultimately feel the current stat and skill system is better for Diablo III. We heavily iterated on the skill trees and stat points in Diablo III for quite some time, but we felt that they simply didn’t fit the direction we wanted to go with the game. They added artificial complexity to the game, but didn’t actually add much in the way of customization. They also often rendered a remarkable penalty, in that if you mis-allocated a stat point or skill the wrong way, or simply wanted to change it at a later point in time, you were out of luck, as you were locked to your original choice.

We strongly feel that in general, players will know whether or not they like a particular skill or play style only after they’ve had a chance to try it out for themselves. And while there definitely is some intrigue and fun to permanently committing yourself to a particular character design, it’s not what we envision for Diablo III. We want players to be able to experiment and find a combination of skills and runes that they enjoy and that fit them the best. We also don’t believe that the current skill system would really benefit from a free allocation of stats, either. We think that players can achieve a sizable level of customization through runes, and that this system fits in much better with the overall design of the game.

You speak of rares or magics and you'll just get laughed at, all everyone talks about is Legendary this that, mempo skorn, manticore blah blah, I haven't played and read enough to know that's all is being mentioned mainly for items and things, which still isn't even fully viable on the new Monster Power...? And one last thing I know Rares are still somewhat useful just as cheap trash gear now until you find your first Legendary and such, but past that you never look back really


If you haven’t played in a few months, you might have missed out on some of the item improvements we’ve made along the way. In terms of patch 1.0.4, you might want to check out the blog we did regarding [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/6923457/104_Legendary_Item_Improvements-8_14_2012"]Legendary Item Improvements[/url] as well as the various overall item improvements we made in [url="http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7528695/"]patch 1.0.5[/url].

Regarding the death timer: The incrementing death timer is actually being removed in 1.0.7.


CM is the voice of the developers.
If this is the CM voice.
Then you guys are gonna certainly be sure that D3 dev doesnt even try to grasp what people has been critisizing.
They are made up, that you guys dont know what is diablo while the new dev feels that THEY knew diablo.

Legendary Improvements? D3 legendarys are a joke if you compare them to the rest of Diablo series. Even uniques in D1 has special effects.

Guys, Let tis game die already.
Edited by WhiteBootz#6395 on 1/8/2013 4:03 PM PST
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CM is the voice of the developers.
If this is the CM voice.
Then you guys are gonna certainly be sure that D3 dev doesnt even try to grasp what people has been critisizing.


has it ever occurred to you that maybe YOU are the one who is not grasping their design decisions? she's right about stat points and skill trees ... they are archaic and ultimately pointless.
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While we enjoyed allocating stats and having intricate skill trees in Diablo II (as well as the benefits they provided), we ultimately feel the current stat and skill system is better for Diablo III. We heavily iterated on the skill trees and stat points in Diablo III for quite some time, but we felt that they simply didn’t fit the direction we wanted to go with the game. They added artificial complexity to the game, but didn’t actually add much in the way of customization. They also often rendered a remarkable penalty, in that if you mis-allocated a stat point or skill the wrong way, or simply wanted to change it at a later point in time, you were out of luck, as you were locked to your original choice.

We strongly feel that in general, players will know whether or not they like a particular skill or play style only after they’ve had a chance to try it out for themselves. And while there definitely is some intrigue and fun to permanently committing yourself to a particular character design, it’s not what we envision for Diablo III. We want players to be able to experiment and find a combination of skills and runes that they enjoy and that fit them the best. We also don’t believe that the current skill system would really benefit from a free allocation of stats, either. We think that players can achieve a sizable level of customization through runes, and that this system fits in much better with the overall design of the game.


My opinion is that I am glad that Blizzard decided to step away from the skill tree implementation. But however in Diablo 2 the skill tree added lots of replayability. I had an ice sorc and then turned around and made a lightning sorc. These are characteristics that need to be implemented in order for players to receive satisfaction similar to Diablo 2. I have 3 level 60s and 2 level 50's in Diablo 3. At this point I see no reason to make another character from scratch.
So my point is that since players are massively only doing keyruns, ubers and act 3 runs then what other options do we have at the moment. None....I think this is the biggest issue with Diablo 3 is the end game content upon release. I believe that we expected more from Blizzard as an organization because of WOW and Diablo 2. I believe that Blizzard is adding more and more content to the game which is leading to Diablo 3 being a huge success within the future.
This biggest change that I would like to see outside of just one area to grind which is act 3 is the possibility of adding more viable charcter builds. An example is for the monk. All monks use Serenity. I would like to see skills customized to where I have alternatives than just Serenity and that it feels just as viable as Serenity. At the moment I feel as a monk that Serenity is a needed fixation to do runs in between elite packs.
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I agree with skill trees and attribute points. They seem to offer a lot of depth, but they really did not. There was only a "right" way and a "wrong" way to allocate your stats and skills, thats not true depth. You could argue D3 only has certain viable builds and I would agree with this. But its easier to play around w/ different things, then be locked into one build for the life of your hero. Plus the builds that are viable at low MP levels is quite high
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If you haven’t played in a few months, you might have missed out on some of the item improvements we’ve made along the way. In terms of patch 1.0.4, you might want to check out the blog we did regarding Legendary Item Improvements as well as the various overall item improvements we made in patch 1.0.5.


This is actually a intresting point. I have the feeling that the latest changes did not quite achieve what they intended, meaning many legendaries where supposed to support more build diversity and i feel they ended up doing the exact opposite. Before 1.04 everyone wanted about the same stats that they want now, but the best way to go about it was with rares, that left the option of at least choosing the color of your gear, wich made toons feel more unique. After the new legenderies everyone want's pretty much not only the same stats but also the same undyable gear, making our characters look somewath generic. You even see people saying "oh i have a cm wizard", or "a cyclone monk", or a "WW barb". I consider the lack of uniqueness the major problem in this game at the moment, and that problem comes from everyone wanting very simmilar or even the same stats on gear, this is the core problem of itemization in general.

What happens is some stats are simply more efficient than others in making a powerfull character wich in turn makes most of the players desire these same stats wich in turn shift the value of the itens towards a very small group of drops, making the great majority of drops valueless, being this is the true root of the "i never get good drops" problem, because the reward sistem in drops is related to the value of a said drop and the value is related to how many people desire that iten and how rare that drop is. So this is why patch 1.04 was acctually a step backwards in my opinion.

I would love to see a complete itemization rework, as painfull as can be for the people who grinded billions and spent it on his own gear (myself being one of those), or spent a lot of cash in his toon, this is a crucial fix to the game, having more variety on the desireble stats leading to a variety of builds, would promote more costumisation and make the "iten hunt" endgame more rewarding.
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While we enjoyed allocating stats and having intricate skill trees in Diablo II (as well as the benefits they provided), we ultimately feel the current stat and skill system is better for Diablo III. We heavily iterated on the skill trees and stat points in Diablo III for quite some time, but we felt that they simply didn’t fit the direction we wanted to go with the game. They added artificial complexity to the game, but didn’t actually add much in the way of customization. They also often rendered a remarkable penalty, in that if you mis-allocated a stat point or skill the wrong way, or simply wanted to change it at a later point in time, you were out of luck, as you were locked to your original choice.

Regarding the death timer: The incrementing death timer is actually being removed in 1.0.7.

This was part of the fun IMO, the thinking you had to put into your builds. Now while I really didn't want to see stat requirements for armors being implemented in this game, (and it wasn't), I really feel saddened that all forms of manual stat points were removed from the game.
Please explain the customization here:
Two barbarians, both para level 100, No armors.
They are completely alike, with access to the same exact skills and builds. There is no customization there, only a little bit of play style will separate the two.

Armor is the only thing that distinguishes different players, but we had that in D2, along with different skills and stat allocations. I really dont see how removing stat allocation and skill points added to the customization?

Yes if you allocated stats wrong, you needed to reroll before you got to be too high a level. That was fun, but thats all my opinion.

So we will still have a 3 second wait? Still good to hear, though most people rarely die repeatedly like that now. Id like to see banners do something like being able to tp to them if you die (sorta like a CP wherever you want it, with a timer of course to combat exploitation)
Edited by RagingKoala#1984 on 1/8/2013 4:18 PM PST
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The Real reason why d3 will probably not be fixed until current team change is simply Ego, Current blizzard are "egotistical" to a ridiculous point. This is why they blindly refuse to see the flaw in their game.

simple example of this: the ID all button that i would say Most people want and has not been implanted. The reason is simple Jay's ego is too big to admit is vision on "unpacking gift" by id'ing was bad, so he decided to stick by it.

tl;dr Blizz need to drop that overly big ego and stop believing their view is always the best, than the game will get fixed.
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Although when describing the Diablo II system, I often used 'mirage' instead of aritificial but it lines up with what I meant. The thing is, the old system gave off a feel of great involvement and uniqueness but in reality, it did not. Even the synergies of Diablo II made the skill tree far more linear than with Diablo III. With this game, we get certain skills because they are of the most to us and most beneficial. Whereas diablo II, you got them because you were forced to if you wanted X.

With the idea of stat requirements on items--the need to get Y and Z stat further forced peoples hand. Sure, to the extremes there was some form of uniqueness (all stamina!) but in the end, it just felt meh...

I do believe though that without PvP, the skills do feel stale and I think we will be seeing a lot more unused skills and passive being used by players when Dueling and PvP is released. Right now, we have the cookie cutter builds since they are most efficient for PvE, but once PvP, they most likely will not be the most efficient.

The Real reason why d3 will probably not be fixed until current team change is simply Ego, Current blizzard are "egotistical" to a ridiculous point. This is why they blindly refuse to see the flaw in their game.

simple example of this: the ID all button that i would say Most people want and has not been implanted. The reason is simple Jay's ego is too big to admit is vision on "unpacking gift" by id'ing was bad, so he decided to stick by it.

tl;dr Blizz need to drop that overly big ego and stop believing their view is always the best, than the game will get fixed.


What about the reverse? Should not some of the players also drop their ego? Since it seems like many present their opinions as fact and nothing more. It seems like what you are complaining about goes on with some of the players as well.
Edited by Nilrem#1603 on 1/8/2013 4:23 PM PST
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Thanks for the reply Vaeflare.

I take issue with a few points you just made...

"While we enjoyed allocating stats and having intricate skill trees in Diablo II (as well as the benefits they provided), we ultimately feel the current stat and skill system is better for Diablo III"

-How does changing the successful stat allocation/skill tree design make it "better" for Diablo 3 if diablo 2's longevity is proof of the design's success?

"we felt that they simply didn’t fit the direction we wanted to go with the game"

-What exact direction is that? The community as a whole can all agree that the proverbial "dumbing down" of D3 has actually hindered and not improved the game ultimately. Is it true that this "dumbing down" of core game mechanics was designed to reach a larger customer demographic/casual audience aka sell more copies? Don't you see an issue arising here...D3's record sales was largely due to piggybacking off the success of D2--the game where "allocating stats and having intricate skill trees" occurs.

"if you mis-allocated a stat point or skill the wrong way, or simply wanted to change it at a later point in time, you were out of luck, as you were locked to your original choice"

-Wouldn't the logical fix be to implement a relatively easy solution-- a "respec" npc. If so much concern with the issue of permanance, then why does changing skills/runes mid farming remove all your stacks of NV?

"And while there definitely is some intrigue and fun to permanently committing yourself to a particular character design, it’s not what we envision for Diablo III. We want players to be able to experiment and find a combination of skills and runes that they enjoy and that fit them the best"

-Again, this seems to contradict your previous statement. Why does swapping skills/runes remove NV stacks? You would think that with all the boasting reguarding "millions of available specs" that the player would not be penalized by experimenting with skills while in a game session.

I ask such questions because I genuinely care about the Diablo franchise and want it to succeed. Thanks!
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Another RO player, awesome.
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01/08/2013 03:43 PMPosted by Vaeflare
While we enjoyed allocating stats and having intricate skill trees in Diablo II (as well as the benefits they provided), we ultimately feel the current stat and skill system is better for Diablo III. We heavily iterated on the skill trees and stat points in Diablo III for quite some time, but we felt that they simply didn’t fit the direction we wanted to go with the game. They added artificial complexity to the game, but didn’t actually add much in the way of customization. They also often rendered a remarkable penalty, in that if you mis-allocated a stat point or skill the wrong way, or simply wanted to change it at a later point in time, you were out of luck, as you were locked to your original choice.


You and the devs may be correct; however, I think D3's skill system should be bigger. If not bigger than D2, at least it should be two times bigger than what it is now... Right now, it basically has not enough depths, imo.

*The same implies to itemization and randomization. It's lacking deepness.
Edited by MisterAjikko#1937 on 1/8/2013 4:32 PM PST
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If you haven’t played in a few months, you might have missed out on some of the item improvements we’ve made along the way. In terms of patch 1.0.4, you might want to check out the blog we did regarding Legendary Item Improvements as well as the various overall item improvements we made in patch 1.0.5.


Hope that this is not the final improvement to item quality that we will see....Diablo 3 is very very far away from feeling like a rewarding game experience. I could list a bunch of fixes but they have already been littered all over the forums and have still not been implemented. All roads seem to lead back to RMAH.
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The skill system in D3 is worthless. In an attempt at making it more diverse, they made it more linear. Why reinvent the wheel (hey, let's try using a different shape for wheels, maybe we'll find something that works better!!!)
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I like the new skill system. Dont get me wrong - I love D2 as well....but I had a lvl99 Sorceress with Frozen Orb build (like 99% if players)....and after about 1000 hours of play, I wanted to try out a lightning build, or fire build....and I couldnt.

The only think that I strictly liked about D2 more was the mapping system and the quest rewards (ie, imbue, personalize and socket). I'm still hoping that 1.07 will let me have my very own RYOKA'S CHANTODO'S WILL!! (Although, not likely)
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