Diablo® III

IAS vs. Dex. vs CHD Comparison Guide

12/27/2012 10:35 PMPosted by Seaboots
Someone really ought to set up a spreadsheet with the calculations included which simplifies manipulation of values and saves you doing it over and over.


inputs: crit chance, attacks per second, sheet dps
output: true dps

have the relevant sections to calculate sheet dps

now to make it work

I already have the sheet DPS calculations in a spreadsheet. Some of it is manual--for example, I need to calculate average WD by hand for such scenarios as "Adds X% to Elemental Damage, plus Faith in the Light, blah blah blah." But I can already crank out paper DPS, and I can, with relatively work, create real DPS calculations for combination scenarios like this:

Overawe
Faith in the Light
Blazing Wrath
Blazing Fists
Cyclone
Better active weapon ready when you pop FitL and Cyclone

It's just not quite there to the point where I can have the user select certain options and then have the spreadsheet do the rest. But it's getting closer every day.
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Thanks for your work Vrkhyz.
The crux of the problem is that +AS scales rather heavily with FitL and also creates more cyclones (given that CHC has not changed).

Thus, the formula HAS to take into account FitL and actual dps output with the build mentioned several posts up to be accurate for this particular question.

That is where my question lies. In the murky realm of snapshots and cyclone production.

I don't weapon swap for snapshotting. I am lazy as well as unwilling to spend to get a third set of gear for my monk for something I believe will be fixed soon enough, so feel free to ignore that beast of a complication if this problem haunts you until you solve it.

:D

To get a real picture, you'd need to know the individual weapons and their attack speeds because of how FitL works. (It adds different base damage, depending on the active weapon.) So, before I provide the answers, can you give me a range of options? I'm thinking one of these would do:

1. I use my own monk, with the same build you posted
2. I assume the monk is using weapons with identical APS and average WD

Which would you prefer?
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Fair enough. Let's say this build:

FoT:TC
Deadly Reach: Foresight
SW:Cyclone
Blind:FitL
(All buffs accounted for. Other skills defensive)

Passives: Combination Strike
(All buffs accounted for. Other passives defensive)

Assume 16% + 8% + FitL buff to SW.

EDIT: Complicated, isn't it...?

Not as complicated as it seems at first glance because Thunderclap, Foresight, and Combination Strike simply combine to multiply the base damage by 134%. They don't actually change the underlying ratios. (Overawe and Blazing Wrath would also fall into this category.) Therefore, the entire build can be simplified as follows:

Cyclone
Faith in the Light
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This:
12/28/2012 07:22 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
2. I assume the monk is using weapons with identical APS and average WD


This:
Cyclone
Faith in the Light


You're the man.
Edited by Fitz#1329 on 12/28/2012 8:23 AM PST
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I think the formula is going to be too unwieldy to do much more than sit in a spreadsheet, but I'll give it a rip while I'm idling at my desk. I brought a dozen donuts to work today, and there were barely more employees than donuts.
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Okay, I got this. Not that hard, really, as long as I can handwave the actual calculations and just focus on the percentage changes. Just to clarify, we want to judge the value of an IAS increase for a player using Cyclone and Faith in the Light, with two equivalent weapons, right? So we want to know how much DEX the IAS increase is worth, how much CHD it's worth, and how much average weapon damage it's worth. (Again, I'm going to set aside CHC for the time being.)

Sound right?
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Yep.
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Okay. Here goes, then.

*deep breath*

As I noted above, in the absence of Faith in the Light, you can express a change in IAS in terms of changes to average weapon damage, DEX, and CHD. This is done by determining the effective percentage increase in IAS and then applying it to the relative factor:

1. Increasing the AWD by the same percentage
2. Increasing (DEX + 100) by the same percentage
3. Increasing (1 + CHC x CHD) by the same percentage

Faith in the Light adds a certain amount to your average weapon damage, but the amount changes with your APS/IAS. Therefore, if you use Faith in the Light and increase your IAS, you're actually affecting two DPS factors:

1. IAS
2. Average weapon damage

Because these factors are multiplicative, all we need to do is multiply the following factors to determine the overall effect:

1. The effective IAS increase
2. The effective AWD increase

And I'll explain these below.

The Effective IAS Increase

The effective IAS increase is rather simple:

1 + new IAS total
Effective IAS increase = -----------------
1 + old IAS total

If you are dual-wielding and wearing 10% IAS gear, your old IAS increase is 25%, so a 5% boost increases your effective IAS by 4%. I demonstrated this on the previous page, but I'll do it again here.

1 + new IAS total
Effective IAS increase = -----------------
1 + old IAS total

1 + 0.30
= --------
1 + 0.25

1.30
= ----
1.25

= 1.04

The Effective AWD Increase

To calculate the effective increase to AWD, you need to know the APS of the weapon. Different APS values produce different weights for Faith in the Light's bonus, but they're added to a static figure (AWD), which means that the ratio changes with APS and IAS, not just IAS. I didn't include APS in the effective IAS calculation because the ratio is the same regardless of the weapon's APS. Faith in the Light doesn't work that way, however, so the formula is a bit trickier.

And here it is:

1 + 0.3 x APS x (1 + new IAS total)
Effective FitL increase = -----------------------------------
1 + 0.3 x APS x (1 + old IAS total)

I'm going to handwave how I calculated that; just know that it's a simplifcation of the real FitL formula for bonus damage:

AWD x 0.3 x APS x IAS
And that, of course, is explained here:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7415601873

I don't need to include AWD in the formula because it cancels out, high school flashbacks, etc., etc., etc.

The Overall Effect

If you are using Faith in the Light, increasing your IAS will compound these two factors (effective IAS increase and effective FitL increase). Therefore, the full effect is this:

Effective IAS increase x effective FitL increase
That's the shorthand, which I'm using because the long version looks like this:

1 + new IAS total 1 + 0.3 x APS x (1 + new IAS total)
----------------- X -----------------------------------
1 + old IAS total 1 + 0.3 x APS x (1 + old IAS total)

And, really, who needs to look at that? I don't, certainly, but Ytar help you if you think I'm going to use FILO or any similar algorithm to put that into a single ratio.

Comparing the Effective Increase to AWD, DEX, and CHD

You can use that long, nasty formula to figure out how much you'd need to increase your AWD (which includes rings and such), DEX, or CHD to get the same result.

For AWD:

1. Calculate the effective FitL increase (effective IAS increase x effective AWD increase).
2. Multiply this number by your current AWD.
3. Subtract your current AWD. The result is how much average damage you need to add to get the same effect as an IAS increase of X% with FitL and Cyclone.

For DEX:

1. Calculate the effective FitL increase.
2. Multiply this number by your current DEX plus 100.
3. Subtract your current DEX plus 100. The result is how much DEX you need to add get the same effect as an IAS increase of X% with FitL and Cyclone.

For CHD:

1. Calculate the effective FitL increase.
2. Multiply this number by (1 + CHC x CHD).
3. Subtract (1 + CHX x CHD).
4. Divide this new number by your CHC. The result is how much CHD you need to add to get the same effect as an IAS increase of X% with FitL and Cyclone.

An Example

A monk has the following stats:
  • Average weapon damage: 600
  • 1800 DEX
  • 1.40 base APS (fists)
  • 25% IAS (15% from dual-wielding, 10% from gear)
  • 20% CHC
  • 250% CHD

The monk is considering upgrading to an amulet with the same stats as the one he's currently wearing, but with a 5% IAS bonus. He's also considering amulets with extra average damage, DEX, and CHD. How large does each increase have to be to give him the same bonus as an extra 5% IAS with Faith in the Light and Cyclone?

Step 1: Calculate the effective FitL increase. To begin, we'll calculate the effective IAS increase:

Effective IAS increase = 1.30 / 1.25
Next, we'll calculate the effective AWD increase:

Effective AWD increase = (1 + 0.3 x APS x (1 + new IAS total)) ÷ (1 + 0.3 x APS x (1 + old IAS total))
= (1 + 0.3 x 1.4 x 1.3) ÷ (1 + 0.3 x 1.4 x 1.25)
= (1 + 0.546) ÷ (1 + 0.525)
= 1.546 / 1.525

So the effective FitL increase is:

Effective FitL increase = effective IAS increase x effective AWD increase
= 1.30 / 1.25 x 1.546 / 1.525
= 1.054321 (rounded)

Step 2: Calculate the required AWD increase by multiplying the effective FitL increase by the AWD and then subtracting the AWD.

Required AWD increase = effective FitL increase x AWD - AWD
= 1.054321 x 600 - 600
= 632.59 - 600
= 32.59 (rounded)

So it will take 32.59 average damage to equal a 5% IAS increase for this monk. This means that the amulet has to have something like a +24–41 Damage affix, or a +65 Minimum Damage affix, or a +65 Maximum Damage affix, assuming that the latter two extend to that range.

Step 3: Calculate the required DEX increase by multiplying the effective FitL increase by (DEX + 100) and then subtracting (current DEX + 100).

Required DEX increase = effective FitL increase x (DEX + 100) - (DEX + 100)
= 1.054321 x (1800 + 100) - (1800 + 100)
= 1.054321 x 1900 - 1900
= 2003.2099 - 1900
= 103.2099

So it will take roughly 103 DEX to equal a 5% IAS increase for this monk.

Step 4: Calculate the required CHD increase by multiplying the effective FitL increase by (1 + CHC x CHD), subtracting (1 + CHC x CHD), and then dividing by CHC.

Required CHD increase = (effective FitL increase x (1 + CHC x CHD) - (1 + CHC x CHD) ÷ CHC
= (1.054321 x (1 + 0.3 x 2.5) - (1 + CHC x CHD)) ÷ 0.3
= (1.054321 x 1.75 - 1.75) ÷ 0.3
= (1.845 - 1.75) ÷ 0.3
= 0.095 ÷ 0.3
= 0.3168

So it will take roughly 32% CHD to equal a 5% IAS increase for this monk.

Thus, for this monk, any of the following affixes will be the same, assuming these affixes don't exist on the monk's current amulet:

5% IAS
+24–41 Damage
+103 DEX
32% CHD

If the amulet already has one of these stats, it needs to increase by that amount. For example, if the amulet has +189 DEX, then it will need to have +292 DEX to equal a +5% IAS increase.

Things That Don't Matter (Besides, in the Grand Scheme of Things, This Post)

The following factors do not have any impact on these ratios:

1. The haste modifier for Thunderclap, whatever you might want to use
2. Additive buffs like Combination Strike, Foresight's third-strike bonus, Blazing Wrath, etc.
3. Overawe (if you don't know, it falls under #2)

In addition, these bonuses will scale your paper DPS and your real DPS in the same ratio. Basically, this monk will see his paper DPS increase by 5.4321%, and his real DPS will scale in the same fashion.

———

Okay, that's the end of my extended lunch break. You guys are making it really hard for me to spend lunch working on my spreadsheet. So I guess I'll have to work on it at my desk after I help one of our clinical people with those PDF forms I designed a couple weeks ago :)
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Notes:

1. FILO = FOIL. My high school flashback failed.
2. If your weapons are different, the value of FitL for Cyclone changes if you always ready one of them.
3. You can simplify some of those examples if you treat 1.054321 as 0.054321 instead. This saves you the need to subtract the AWD, subtract (DEX + 100), etc.
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Great work Vrkhyz. You are the new king math geek here.

For me atm:
6% IAS = 115 dex = 15% CHD (roughly)

Anyone want to buy a pair of trifecta gloves? (lol)
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Okay. Here goes, then.

*deep breath*

As I noted above, in the absence of Faith in the Light, you can express a change in IAS in terms of changes to average weapon damage, DEX, and CHD. This is done by determining the effective percentage increase in IAS and then applying it to the relative factor:

1. Increasing the AWD by the same percentage
2. Increasing (DEX + 100) by the same percentage
3. Increasing (1 + CHC x CHD) by the same percentage

Faith in the Light adds a certain amount to your average weapon damage, but the amount changes with your APS/IAS. Therefore, if you use Faith in the Light and increase your IAS, you're actually affecting two DPS factors:

1. IAS
2. Average weapon damage

Because these factors are multiplicative, all we need to do is multiply the following factors to determine the overall effect:

1. The effective IAS increase
2. The effective AWD increase

And I'll explain these below.

The Effective IAS Increase

The effective IAS increase is rather simple:

1 + new IAS total
Effective IAS increase = -----------------
1 + old IAS total

If you are dual-wielding and wearing 10% IAS gear, your old IAS increase is 25%, so a 5% boost increases your effective IAS by 4%. I demonstrated this on the previous page, but I'll do it again here.

1 + new IAS total
Effective IAS increase = -----------------
1 + old IAS total

1 + 0.30
= --------
1 + 0.25

1.30
= ----
1.25

= 1.04

The Effective AWD Increase

To calculate the effective increase to AWD, you need to know the APS of the weapon. Different APS values produce different weights for Faith in the Light's bonus, but they're added to a static figure (AWD), which means that the ratio changes with APS and IAS, not just IAS. I didn't include APS in the effective IAS calculation because the ratio is the same regardless of the weapon's APS. Faith in the Light doesn't work that way, however, so the formula is a bit trickier.

And here it is:

1 + 0.3 x APS x (1 + new IAS total)
Effective FitL increase = -----------------------------------
1 + 0.3 x APS x (1 + old IAS total)

I'm going to handwave how I calculated that; just know that it's a simplifcation of the real FitL formula for bonus damage:

AWD x 0.3 x APS x IAS
And that, of course, is explained here:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7415601873

I don't need to include AWD in the formula because it cancels out, high school flashbacks, etc., etc., etc.

The Overall Effect

If you are using Faith in the Light, increasing your IAS will compound these two factors (effective IAS increase and effective FitL increase). Therefore, the full effect is this:

Effective IAS increase x effective FitL increase
That's the shorthand, which I'm using because the long version looks like this:

1 + new IAS total 1 + 0.3 x APS x (1 + new IAS total)
----------------- X -----------------------------------
1 + old IAS total 1 + 0.3 x APS x (1 + old IAS total)

And, really, who needs to look at that? I don't, certainly, but Ytar help you if you think I'm going to use FILO or any similar algorithm to put that into a single ratio.

Comparing the Effective Increase to AWD, DEX, and CHD

You can use that long, nasty formula to figure out how much you'd need to increase your AWD (which includes rings and such), DEX, or CHD to get the same result.

For AWD:

1. Calculate the effective FitL increase (effective IAS increase x effective AWD increase).
2. Multiply this number by your current AWD.
3. Subtract your current AWD. The result is how much average damage you need to add to get the same effect as an IAS increase of X% with FitL and Cyclone.

For DEX:

1. Calculate the effective FitL increase.
2. Multiply this number by your current DEX plus 100.
3. Subtract your current DEX plus 100. The result is how much DEX you need to add get the same effect as an IAS increase of X% with FitL and Cyclone.

For CHD:

1. Calculate the effective FitL increase.
2. Multiply this number by (1 + CHC x CHD).
3. Subtract (1 + CHX x CHD).
4. Divide this new number by your CHC. The result is how much CHD you need to add to get the same effect as an IAS increase of X% with FitL and Cyclone.

An Example

A monk has the following stats:
  • Average weapon damage: 600
  • 1800 DEX
  • 1.40 base APS (fists)
  • 25% IAS (15% from dual-wielding, 10% from gear)
  • 20% CHC
  • 250% CHD

The monk is considering upgrading to an amulet with the same stats as the one he's currently wearing, but with a 5% IAS bonus. He's also considering amulets with extra average damage, DEX, and CHD. How large does each increase have to be to give him the same bonus as an extra 5% IAS with Faith in the Light and Cyclone?

Step 1: Calculate the effective FitL increase. To begin, we'll calculate the effective IAS increase:

Effective IAS increase = 1.30 / 1.25
Next, we'll calculate the effective AWD increase:

Effective AWD increase = (1 + 0.3 x APS x (1 + new IAS total)) ÷ (1 + 0.3 x APS x (1 + old IAS total))
= (1 + 0.3 x 1.4 x 1.3) ÷ (1 + 0.3 x 1.4 x 1.25)
= (1 + 0.546) ÷ (1 + 0.525)
= 1.546 / 1.525

So the effective FitL increase is:

Effective FitL increase = effective IAS increase x effective AWD increase
= 1.30 / 1.25 x 1.546 / 1.525
= 1.054321 (rounded)

Step 2: Calculate the required AWD increase by multiplying the effective FitL increase by the AWD and then subtracting the AWD.

Required AWD increase = effective FitL increase x AWD - AWD
= 1.054321 x 600 - 600
= 632.59 - 600
= 32.59 (rounded)

So it will take 32.59 average damage to equal a 5% IAS increase for this monk. This means that the amulet has to have something like a +24–41 Damage affix, or a +65 Minimum Damage affix, or a +65 Maximum Damage affix, assuming that the latter two extend to that range.

Step 3: Calculate the required DEX increase by multiplying the effective FitL increase by (DEX + 100) and then subtracting (current DEX + 100).

Required DEX increase = effective FitL increase x (DEX + 100) - (DEX + 100)
= 1.054321 x (1800 + 100) - (1800 + 100)
= 1.054321 x 1900 - 1900
= 2003.2099 - 1900
= 103.2099

So it will take roughly 103 DEX to equal a 5% IAS increase for this monk.

Step 4: Calculate the required CHD increase by multiplying the effective FitL increase by (1 + CHC x CHD), subtracting (1 + CHC x CHD), and then dividing by CHC.

Required CHD increase = (effective FitL increase x (1 + CHC x CHD) - (1 + CHC x CHD) ÷ CHC
= (1.054321 x (1 + 0.3 x 2.5) - (1 + CHC x CHD)) ÷ 0.3
= (1.054321 x 1.75 - 1.75) ÷ 0.3
= (1.845 - 1.75) ÷ 0.3
= 0.095 ÷ 0.3
= 0.3168

So it will take roughly 32% CHD to equal a 5% IAS increase for this monk.

Thus, for this monk, any of the following affixes will be the same, assuming these affixes don't exist on the monk's current amulet:

5% IAS
+24–41 Damage
+103 DEX
32% CHD

If the amulet already has one of these stats, it needs to increase by that amount. For example, if the amulet has +189 DEX, then it will need to have +292 DEX to equal a +5% IAS increase.

Things That Don't Matter (Besides, in the Grand Scheme of Things, This Post)

The following factors do not have any impact on these ratios:

1. The haste modifier for Thunderclap, whatever you might want to use
2. Additive buffs like Combination Strike, Foresight's third-strike bonus, Blazing Wrath, etc.
3. Overawe (if you don't know, it falls under #2)

In addition, these bonuses will scale your paper DPS and your real DPS in the same ratio. Basically, this monk will see his paper DPS increase by 5.4321%, and his real DPS will scale in the same fashion.

———

Okay, that's the end of my extended lunch break. You guys are making it really hard for me to spend lunch working on my spreadsheet. So I guess I'll have to work on it at my desk after I help one of our clinical people with those PDF forms I designed a couple weeks ago :)


Hey, just giving you a friendly heads up that some workplaces can monitor what sites you are visiting during your work! So... only work on that spreadsheet while at work if it won't get you in trouble :S
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Alesso you are definitely king of fail today.
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12/28/2012 11:35 AMPosted by Fitz
Alesso you are definitely king of fail today.


Uhm, excuuuuse me for being on the lookout for my fellow diabro ;-D
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I work in IT. We have firewalls on our desktop PCs, and we have two surf PCs up front that allow wider access to the Internet but aren't connected to our network drives. Worrying about such stuff is the last thing I need to worry about today.

Also, I echo Fitz cuz quoting that entire Wall O'Text just to add that note was bad form :)
Edited by Vrkhyz#1472 on 12/28/2012 12:09 PM PST
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Eh, he is wiz just coming on our forums today to troll.
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Fitz, you should change the title of the thread back and put the original questions back in, or some form of them that lets people know what they're reading about. Who'd want to read a thread with a title like this? I know I wouldn't :)
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Bump for final result. See first post.
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Thanks for doing all that math Vrkhyz.

I was wondering whether you're planning on adding a way of seeing both PDPS and EDPS values of IAS to your spreadsheet, when evaluating possible upgrades.

Cuz thats the real question, how much should IAS really be weighed due to Cyclone generation (CG) in terms of EDPS and sustain? At least compared to other options. Its pretty safe to say CC is #1 for CG which makes it necessary for sustain too. But the real question is whether or not IAS is perhaps ALWAYS more valuable than CD due to CG. Generally speaking from the math I've done using a wide range of profiles (and pdps figures) the stat priority is usually one of these two options:

6 cc > 50 cd > 9 ias > 150 dex > 66 awd
or
6 cc > 9 ias > 50 cd > 150 dex > 66 awd

I've just used these figures as a base. Obviously on slots other than rings, the order may change slightly due to roll caps, but you get the idea.
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Thanks for doing all that math Vrkhyz.

I was wondering whether you're planning on adding a way of seeing both PDPS and EDPS values of IAS to your spreadsheet, when evaluating possible upgrades.

Cuz thats the real question, how much should IAS really be weighed due to Cyclone generation (CG) in terms of EDPS and sustain? At least compared to other options. Its pretty safe to say CC is #1 for CG which makes it necessary for sustain too. But the real question is whether or not IAS is perhaps ALWAYS more valuable than CD due to CG. Generally speaking from the math I've done using a wide range of profiles (and pdps figures) the stat priority is usually one of these two options:

6 cc > 50 cd > 9 ias > 150 dex > 66 awd
or
6 cc > 9 ias > 50 cd > 150 dex > 66 awd

I've just used these figures as a base. Obviously on slots other than rings, the order may change slightly due to roll caps, but you get the idea.

You're welcome. Small correction to earlier figures: I didn't account for FitL's 20% up-time in Thunderclap combat. This means that FitL's bonus is smaller than it appears, if I'm eyeballing it right, because it will not be up for Thunderclap 80% of the time. (Your DEX is always in play, as are long-lasting buffs like Combination Strike, Blazing Wrath, and a constantly spammed Overawe.) This goes back to what I said earlier about formulas taking us only to the point at which a spreadsheet becomes much, much better.

Regarding the spreadsheet, it already handles a lot of this. Really, it gives you two ways to compare items and upgrades. First, it allows you to enter all your stats for various gear types on individual worksheets, play mix-and-match with drop-down menus on a master sheet, and then take a snapshot of your character with that gear setup on a third sheet, which allows you to compare multiple setups of various types. The snapshot includes your paper DPS (easy to calculate) and your real DPS, which, at the moment, includes the following:

1. Thunderclap damage (primary and AOE)
2. SW damage
3. Cyclone damage
4. Number of targets (assumes they're in range of Thunderclap and Sweeping Wind)

Second, it allows you to play around with raw figures on the DPS sheet, so you can quickly eyeball the value of changing any of the following factors:

1. Average weapon damage
2. Dexterity
3. Attack speed (base weapon)
4. IAS
5. CHC
6. CHD

But some of the finer points are still manual. I still need to enter the average damage manually, for example. I have to enter the cumulative multiplier for buffs like Blazing Wrath, Foresight, and Combination Strike. I have to calculate the FitL buff by hand, and then separate the SW/Cyclone damage from the Thunderclap damage because the latter needs to be adjusted based on the 80/20 up-time split. I need to know how to properly apply the Adds X% to Elemental Damage affix because it hasn't been programmed yet. And, of course, it doesn't handle skills other than Thunderclap or Cyclone at the moment.

Now, all those things (and more that I didn't list) will be fixed, especially now that I've got the EL side of the spreadsheet in good shape. (It needs to handle some stuff on the EL tab, such as Blazing Wrath's sustain rate, with formulas instead of manual entry. But it does a good job otherwise.) But it's going to take a little bit of time, and it's going to be an ongoing process, not an all-at-once effort. The back half of the workbook needs the most work, as I've put the least amount of thought into it. The front half, however, correctly generates everything you see in your character sheet by reading the gear you've selected. The only exceptions are manual choices like follower, follower skills, follower MF and GF bonuses, and a couple things I'm not sure of, like whether follower EXP bonuses apply to your character. (I think they do, at 20%.) Oh, and I've focused on the Enchantress effects because, hey, I run with an Enchantress. Not everything can be done for the common good ;-)

Anyway, I was planning to post about the spreadsheet this weekend, so I'll take a stab at some screen shots later tonight if I find time. It could be that all this stuff is already handled perfectly by a site like d3up or diablostats or theasiangamer or something like that. But I think the spreadsheet might offer a bit of mix-and-match flexibility that the other sites don't have, in which case some people will find it useful until such time as a website incorporates the same features and renders all my work moot :)

PS. Assuming there's interest and that the spreadsheet isn't fully redundant with an existing sheet, I plan to release it in whatever state it's in after I touch up a few last things on the EL tab. At that point, I'll simply take feedback and work on parts of it in my spare time, releasing updates when I get a new feature or two working.
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which post number exactly has the information I need to link in the my guide thread?
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