Diablo® III

Can we please get past stat point complaints?

I just do not understand why people are so damn fixated on putting in individual stat and skill points and why this is held up as some holy grail of character customization.

Look, in any game that features any form of "building" your character, this is what will happen:

1)You attempt your first build while getting into the game.
2)You realize you failed because you didn't have a complete understanding of the state of late/endgame and the challenges you'd be facing (or you got lucky with your first build and it sorta works).
3)You respec/reroll your character into one of the handful of optimal builds that either you or someone on the internet have figured out.

Now look at how things go in Diablo 3:

1)You throw together some skill build while getting into the game.
2)You realize your skill build probably isn't suited for Inferno at appropriate MP - possibly even failing out at around Act 3/4 Hell.
3)You respec into one of the handful of optimal builds that either you or someone on the internet have figured out.

It's the same damn process, the only difference is that in D3 you didn't have to sit there clicking a "+" button 300 times.

Stat points are not a real form of character customization. Neither is D2's skill point model. In all cases, there arise a handful of optimal ways to build your character and your only real choice is which of those optimal builds you want to use. It's a result of the game being an ultimately mathematical construction with a relatively inflexible meta-game. There will be things that mathematically work and things that mathematically do not. You either use the optimal build(s) or you accept that you're not performing at peak capacity - there is no ultimate difference between D3's skill builds and D2's skill/stat builds. None. At all.

Does clicking a "+" button somehow make you feel smarter or something? Does copying a stat build from the internet somehow make a character more "yours" than copying a 6-skill+rune build? I just don't understand why this is such a big friggen deal that people are still complaining about it 7 months after the game's release*.

edit: *especially since there are so many actually meaningful things you could be complaining about, like how most of the rune choices are crappy or how every class and build wants the same 4-5 affixes on gear (varying by primary stat only, really) or how even though it'd be an easy fix to make all game areas attractive, we're still running a single circuit through Act 3 or...
Edited by Inune#1809 on 12/31/2012 5:42 PM PST
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cos haters want to find any reason to hate.
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If each stat was important in some way to EACH class, stat points could really be cool. Want to pump int on your barb? why not? Assuming it had an effect just as powerful (but different) from strength.

The D2 stat points were terrible, true. But I think they could have been more creative in implementing new stats and making each stat beneficial to each class. In this way keeping stat point distribution could offer many ways to play each class.
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This.

1)You attempt your first build while getting into the game.
2)You realize you failed because you didn't have a complete understanding of the state of late/endgame and the challenges you'd be facing (or you got lucky with your first build and it sorta works).
3)You respec/reroll your character into one of the handful of optimal builds that either you or someone on the internet have figured out.


Eventually majority of players will go towards the optimal builds, I don't see how that is any different from what we currently have. No one is forcing people to use the same runes or the same skills (people do it anyway). D3 gives a great flexibility in skill choices in that you can change your spec for different scenarios i.e. ubers, xp farm, dueling etc.
Edited by BurningJC007#1355 on 12/31/2012 5:51 PM PST
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or all your stats make many different viable builds and are all optimal to accomplish what you need to get through while the game still poses a challenge to you, but this isn't the case. stats are useless and meaningless in D3, it's mainstat + vit that is all. why ever would you invest in any other stat? the fact that part of my stats are autoassigned into a different stat that i don't need is already bad

you can't do anythign funny you can't do anything creative
you're just the same as everyone else, no one has to make any commitment to their build nor train their character into a certain style.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 12/31/2012 5:50 PM PST
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Never!!
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If each stat was important in some way to EACH class, stat points could really be cool. Want to pump int on your barb? why not? Assuming it had an effect just as powerful (but different) from strength.

The D2 stat points were terrible, true. But I think they could have been more creative in implementing new stats and making each stat beneficial to each class. In this way keeping stat point distribution could offer many ways to play each class.


But that's the same level of choice that you have in D3.

Let's say that stat points come back and by weird coincidence, there is a build where you pump a Barb with Int because Barb ability "A" has a super-high int multiplier for some reason. Now lets say that another Barb build pumps the Barb with Str and utilizes Barb ability "B," which has a good Str modifier.

Choosing between those two builds is fundamentally no different than simply choosing between Barb ability "A" and Barb ability "B" if they were powered by the same stat.

That's what I'm trying to say; the actual act of putting in stat points on your character is not meaningful. It's just an extra button you have to click. That's literally it.
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If each stat was important in some way to EACH class, stat points could really be cool. Want to pump int on your barb? why not? Assuming it had an effect just as powerful (but different) from strength.

The D2 stat points were terrible, true. But I think they could have been more creative in implementing new stats and making each stat beneficial to each class. In this way keeping stat point distribution could offer many ways to play each class.


But that's the same level of choice that you have in D3.

Let's say that stat points come back and by weird coincidence, there is a build where you pump a Barb with Int because Barb ability "A" has a super-high int multiplier for some reason. Now lets say that another Barb build pumps the Barb with Str and utilizes Barb ability "B," which has a good Str modifier.

Choosing between those two builds is fundamentally no different than simply choosing between Barb ability "A" and Barb ability "B" if they were powered by the same stat.

That's what I'm trying to say; the actual act of putting in stat points on your character is not meaningful. It's just an extra button you have to click. That's literally it.


You're thinking in the rigid sense where each stat is mainstreamed in that way. Torchlight 2 attempts to make stats meaningful you could go dex str or int on an embermage and still be unique between others, here not so much. And on top of that it's a choice, rather than forced down your throat.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 12/31/2012 5:54 PM PST
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i am more pissed off with the fact that the maps are not 99% fully random like in D2 making D3 less replayable than D2
also the lame attempt at the new "cow" level is extremly bad compared to the original level
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
8600
but but... i wanted to put 300 points into energy! ! !
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12/31/2012 05:55 PMPosted by erosinnin
also the lame attempt at the new "cow" level is extremly bad compared to the original level


I have to argue and disagree on this point this was put in mainly due to fans asking for it, so if you want to point the finger point it at the players that requested it.
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or all your stats make many different viable builds and are all optimal to accomplish what you need to get through while the game still poses a challenge to you, but this isn't the case. stats are useless and meaningless in D3, it's mainstat + vit that is all. why ever would you invest in any other stat? the fact that part of my stats are autoassigned into a different stat that i don't need is already bad

you can't do anythign funny you can't do anything creative
you're just the same as everyone else, no one has to make any commitment to their build nor train their character into a certain style.


But as much as this forum likes to give them crap, the developers aren't retarded; if you could allocate your stats purely into your primary stat of choice and Vit, all other game numbers would have been simply shifted during development to accommodate the new assumed baseline stats. You'd be starting from the same relative baseline you are now.

As for build commitment, the simple act of adding skill points doesn't give you commitment, that'd be disallowing or limiting respecs, which is a whole other topic of debate (and another thing I'm glad they did away with from D2, but that's a conversation for another time).
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or all your stats make many different viable builds and are all optimal to accomplish what you need to get through while the game still poses a challenge to you, but this isn't the case. stats are useless and meaningless in D3, it's mainstat + vit that is all. why ever would you invest in any other stat? the fact that part of my stats are autoassigned into a different stat that i don't need is already bad

you can't do anythign funny you can't do anything creative
you're just the same as everyone else, no one has to make any commitment to their build nor train their character into a certain style.


But as much as this forum likes to give them crap, the developers aren't retarded; if you could allocate your stats purely into your primary stat of choice and Vit, all other game numbers would have been simply shifted during development to accommodate the new assumed baseline stats. You'd be starting from the same relative baseline you are now.

As for build commitment, the simple act of adding skill points doesn't give you commitment, that'd be disallowing or limiting respecs, which is a whole other topic of debate (and another thing I'm glad they did away with from D2, but that's a conversation for another time).

you said stats why are you going into skill points now wtf? respec is fine whatever. stats no, you dont' grow up and respec your personality %@#*@#!#*?

as per allocation of stats, all other numbers... blah blah, well if stats weren't mainstreamed to be mainstat does this + vit then you wouldn't just allocate it into that, thats why you make more MEANINGFUL STATS to begin with.

it's like the choice of a bazooka or a mortar but in d3 you only get a plastic knife and thats it, that plastic fork you wanted will never be in your grasp.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 12/31/2012 6:00 PM PST
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12/31/2012 05:53 PMPosted by KradisZ
You're thinking in the rigid sense where each stat is mainstreamed in that way. Torchlight 2 attempts to make stats meaningful you could go dex str or int on an embermage and still be unique between others, here not so much. And on top of that it's a choice, rather than forced down your throat.


Right, I was boiling it down to an oversimplified example. But lets talk Torchlight 2. With Embermages, there wasn't too much choice going on with stats because it was really only "pump Focus."

But take another class from that game: Outlander. Ostensibly, you could choose to build your Outlander via Dex and use guns or you could build your Outlander via Focus and use glaives. But when you get right down to it, is that really any different than just choosing whether you want to use Guns or Glaives if they were both powered by Dex? The stats only exist as a button you push to make the build of your choice work, they don't factor into the customization on any meaningful level.
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You're thinking in the rigid sense where each stat is mainstreamed in that way. Torchlight 2 attempts to make stats meaningful you could go dex str or int on an embermage and still be unique between others, here not so much. And on top of that it's a choice, rather than forced down your throat.


Right, I was boiling it down to an oversimplified example. But lets talk Torchlight 2. With Embermages, there wasn't too much choice going on with stats because it was really only "pump Focus."

But take another class from that game: Outlander. Ostensibly, you could choose to build your Outlander via Dex and use guns or you could build your Outlander via Focus and use glaives. But when you get right down to it, is that really any different than just choosing whether you want to use Guns or Glaives if they were both powered by Dex? The stats only exist as a button you push to make the build of your choice work, they don't factor into the customization on any meaningful level.

Play torchlight2 more, my embermage is running all str for critical strikes on a staff that hits blatantly hard vs. all focus, str high crit dmg and weapon dmg + dex for hight crit chance + dodging at melee range and stun with knockback and extremely hard hits due to str increasing weapon damage. focus is for spells only i built my embermage differently from what you're already mainstreaming from guides or whatever.

As for outlander don't need to use guns or glaivse either, you can train it as a shadowling master and play it almost like a necromancer, many different options or more, doesn't have to be dex or focus either, can be just half focus and grow vit for shield block while minions do the work.
If both guns & glaives were powered by dex then you're already eliminating options for the player and dumbing down the system.

You want a more hardcore game with greater sample of diversity with allocated stats? Go play Dark Souls. Anyone who's played that in-depth knows this is a simpleton's game afterwards.

D3 is a backwards step from D2, D2 is 12 years old, with 12 years of time to think up new ways to implement stats and things this is what you get, "Play it how we made it, not how you can set it" , aka no control over any of your stats/skills and such. Modifiers? Nerfed/Buffed by update patches not by player equipment or allocation. In addition a Main stat + vit is the most important and efficient and is all you search for in most of your equipment, anything else is ignored.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 12/31/2012 6:11 PM PST
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12/31/2012 05:56 PMPosted by KradisZ
also the lame attempt at the new "cow" level is extremly bad compared to the original level


I have to argue and disagree on this point this was put in mainly due to fans asking for it, so if you want to point the finger point it at the players that requested it.


it might of been a request by the players yes but did they really need to butcher the idea that badly ?

the game called D3 is butchered compared to D2
so many features taken out
and so many !@#$ty ones inplemented
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Play torchlight2 more, my embermage is running all str for critical strikes on a staff that hits blatantly hard vs. all focus, str + dex dodging at melee range and stun with knockback and extremely hard hits due to str increasing weapon damage. focus is for spells only i built my embermage differently from what you're already mainstreaming from guides or whatever.

As for outlander don't need to use guns or glaivse either, you can train it as a shadowling master and play it almost like a necromancer, many different options or more, doesn't have to be dex or focus either, can be just half focus and grow vit for shield block while minions do the work.


That is good that there is more customization than what I saw when I was playing Torchlight 2, but you're not hearing me.

Take all the choices you just listed and make them all powered by the same stat. You still have all the choices you listed. The stats themselves had absolutely no meaning; they were just a button you pushed to make your chosen play style not suck.

Have you really ever looked at a character build screen and thought to yourself "I want to play this character with a 300 in this box right here"? I haven't. I've thought to myself "hey, I want to play this sorceress that shoots ice orbs" or "hey I want to summon fire from the heavens or some !@#$" or "hey I want to get up in some guy's face and hit him with a stick." Then if the game had stat points, I clicked the correct combination of "+" buttons to make that happen - and if the game didn't have stat points, it didn't friggen matter because those weren't part of any customization I was making.

This isn't like DnD or Dragon Age or something where you can't intimidate someone during roleplay if you don't have enough Str or Con or whatever. Stats in Diablo exist only to make you not suck at whatever spells you want to use.
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allocating stat points in D3 would make little difference. Mainstat and vitality are too powerful compared to the other stats. All you would be choosing is how much vitality vs how much dmg. Stat points were not that great in D2 but they were much more important than they are in D3. This is mostly because gear had stat requirements to equip and stat points didnt affect your damage very much. Strength was req. for armor choices and dex was req. for some weapons. Dex was also needed for block. You had to balance these stats with the gear requirements and the stats on the gear you were going to use. The goal was to get as much vitality (or energy if es build) as possible while still being able to equip all your gear and any gear swaps you wanted to have available. On top of that you had to decide if you wanted to sacrifice some vitality for dex to achieve better block. Your damage wasn't dependent on stats, it was dependent on skill points. Having damage dependent on a single stat trumps all other stats except vitality. As a result all you are doing is choosing damage or vitality. Its not a bad idea i guess but i dont think it would change the game much.
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