Diablo® III

Can we please get past stat point complaints?

If you think Skill Points were illusion, then Rubik's cube shouldn't be 3x3x3 but only 1x1x1, and each piece from Tetris shouldn't have 4 square blocks but only one single square block. That's what you get when you simplified the fundamentals. You'll get...

BOREDOM.
Edited by MisterAjikko#1937 on 1/3/2013 12:18 PM PST
Reply Quote
If you think Skill Points were illusion, then Rubik's cube shouldn't be 3x3x3 but only 1x1x1, and each piece from Tetris shouldn't have 4 square blocks but only one single square block. That's what you get when you simplified the fundamentals. You'll get...

BOREDOM.


Then tell me what would happen if you decided to make a tri sorc. Where the only attacks would be; Fire Bolt, Charged Bolt, and Ice Bolt. Tell me just how much dps they would be able to do.

That is the problem with skill points and trees. Some direct attacks have to suck at endgame. Or you would make them OP'd in the lower levels. But then the danger becomes you would one shot everything in sight. But as you gain levels and you move closer to the enemies it was balance to handle. Now instead of one shotting them it is taking more like two to three hits. So you are actually getting weaker instead of stronger.

In this game, after all balance passes are finished. You will have all skills that are useful in endgame. Try doing that with D2's system, and you will not be able to accomplish it.
Reply Quote
The thing is, I don't want all my moves in the end game. What I want is to pick a few attacks and make them stronger then normal. The choice is this...

1-Have all moves average in the end game.
2-Have a few moves but strong in the end game.

I choose the few strong moves.
Edited by Gares#1257 on 1/3/2013 9:11 PM PST
Reply Quote
The thing is, I don't want all my moves in the end game. What I want is to pick a few attacks and make them stronger then normal. The choice is this...

1-Have all moves average in the end game.
2-Have a few moves but strong in the end game.

I choose the few strong moves.


Look everyone would use their points to make the skills, not moves, that they want to use as the strong skills. So your Tempest Rush would be at the same strength as anyone else that also uses Tempest Rush. No one would take an average Tempest Rush and use it at endgame.

Not spending your points on making the skills you are using the best would be doing it wrong. That is why it as well becomes and illusion of customization.
Reply Quote
Enough of this tired "Illusion of customization" Junk. I've read this too many times in one of these threads. That stat points are an "Illusion of control" and skill points are an "Illusion of customization". It's pointless to argue weather they are or aren't an "illusion" because no one ever gives in...So I'm not going to even try. I'll just say this...

Back in D2 I loved the necromancer. I didn't want 400 pets at a time I wanted a good number of tough pets. I liked the normal skeletons and magi skeleton second best. I started out the game by putting enough points into skeletons to get a max of three. Most would get much more. I then put the rest into mastery so my three skeletons were tough as nails. Most would have many weaker ones.

I played differently then most players and this in my mind is not an "illusion" of options.

Another thing...

In D2 we actually created our char. In D3 our char creates itself.

(P.S. Say it's an "illusion" again, I'm not saying anything more on that subject.)
Edited by Gares#1257 on 1/4/2013 10:50 PM PST
Reply Quote
Because we hate dumbed down games.
They are basically telling us f you losers.
Reply Quote
01/04/2013 01:15 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
So your Tempest Rush would be at the same strength as anyone else that also uses Tempest Rush. No one would take an average Tempest Rush and use it at endgame.


That is 100% incorrect.

Suppose someone wanted an average tempest rush, as well as, many other average skills to create a balanced character for all situations? Then another player comes along, and maybe only want a handful of skills that are considerably more powerful but the build might not be as good in many situations.

Then take another player who wants only 1 or 2 extremely powerful skill while forgetting about the rest; this would prove extremely effective in some situations but not so effective in others.. That is customization ShadowAegis, that does not exist in D3. That is what the stat points / skill trees are for.

Most people will not use only 1 build and make it a cookie cutter; most people are going to create multiple characters with multiple builds. It happened in D2, and it would happen in D3 if it was allowed.

Stat points are anything but an illusion of customization.. not even close.

"In this game, after all balance passes are finished. You will have all skills that are useful in endgame. Try doing that with D2's system, and you will not be able to accomplish it"

On the contrary ShadowAegis, I was able to accomplish this with a Paladin, Sorc, Amazon, and Druid, because I was carrying multiple sets of gear that allowed for it.. again something D3 doesn't have. It really is amazing what can be created with a diverse set of items and a skill tree/stat point combo. Anything is possible. In D3? Nope, not even close

No, contrary to what you think, no matter how you slice it, most skills are not useful in the end game in D3.
Edited by Deadlysynz#1583 on 1/5/2013 12:58 AM PST
Reply Quote
OP - this will just fall on deaf ears. People will put their fingers in their ears and scream "na na na na na! I want stat points! It's da best!"

12/31/2012 06:16 PMPosted by Dirk
Stat points were not that great in D2 but they were much more important than they are in D3.
No, they weren't.
The only thing they did in D2 was allow you to wear gear. They did offer some dps (in fact, the same exact formula is used in D3), but it wasn't unnecessary to have that much dps to kill things quickly. After that, Energy was ignored (thanks to 2x SoJ), and that just leaves... Vitality.

D3 would play out the same if it had stat allocations. People would allocate to their primary/vitality, and ignore everything else. Nothing would change.
Reply Quote
Surely you can get past it, when the old community gives up on Blizzard.
Reply Quote
01/05/2013 01:02 AMPosted by CyberGoat
D3 would play out the same if it had stat allocations. People would allocate to their primary/vitality, and ignore everything else. Nothing would change.


Nope, that is again wrong. You are assuming yet again, the cookie cutter build. Find the optimal build and dump everything in vitality. Everybody probably had at least 1 of these builds on their array of accounts, but there were far far far far more builds that didn't follow this method.

Don't ever assume that people are going to follow along like lemmings and just do what everybody else does. Just because you "may" have done that, that does not mean everybody else or most everyone did. I can confidently tell you that out of all plays in D2, less than 5% followed you methodology.

You have to think about this, it is pretty darn foolish to think that most people who had active accounts in D2, created only 1 character, or multiple characters that were cookie cutter "optimal" builds. There were people with with dozens of accounts with mass array of different builds on each class.

D2 had far more gear that allowed to play around with stat points and that's exactly what happened.
Edited by Deadlysynz#1583 on 1/5/2013 1:11 AM PST
Reply Quote
Nope, that is again wrong. You are assuming yet again, the cookie cutter build. Find the optimal build and dump everything in vitality. Everybody probably had at least 1 of these builds on their array of accounts, but there were far far far far more builds that didn't follow this method.

Don't ever assume that people are going to follow along like lemmings and just do what everybody else does. Just because you "may" have done that, that does not mean everybody else or most everyone did. I can confidently tell you that out of all plays in D2, less than 5% followed you methodology.
They'll do the optimal. And it's CLEAR exactly what the optimal is in D3. You can say it's "cookie cutter", but it's really not. Just look at how people choose their gear.

If you're a Barb, you would ignore Int and Dex for any sort of "stat allocation choice". Just like you do on gear. You max out Str and Vita.

It's not a choice, stop pretending like it is one. Otherwise, you'd see Barbs wearing Dex/Int gear if they were meaningful.

Oh, and it wasn't a choice in D2 either. Energy didn't give enough mana and gave 0 dps. With mediocre gear, you could bypass mana entirely. Str/Dex gave dps, but it wasn't needed. That leaves... Vitality. Again, it's not a choice to anyone looking with unclouded eyes.

So what it boils down to is this (your words here)
You have to think about this, it is pretty darn foolish to think that most people who had active accounts in D2, created only 1 character, or multiple characters that were cookie cutter "optimal" builds. There were people with with dozens of accounts with mass array of different builds on each class.
All these "builds" by people that DIDN'T dump into Vitality could have been better had they dumped into Vitality. That's 100% fact. The ONLY reason people argue for stat allocations in D3 is an illusion of choice and to make themselves feel superior to those that don't follow the optimal route. Just like you'll feel superior now if you see a Barb with +2000 Dex.

So again, NOT A CHOICE. If you want to argue for different meaning of stats with an allocation system, that's another ball of wax. But as it stands, it's like this:
D2 - Str/Dex minimum to wear gear, dump Vitality.
D3 - Primary Stat then Vitality (chosen by gear options).
Both systems lead to 0 actual choice.
Reply Quote
As far as skills go, the only thing that upsets me is that I can't use more than rune from the same skill block.

Why cant I lay out a Guardian Turret and an Aid Station at the same time?

Why can't I put down some Echoing Blast and have them blow up the monster and set off the Sticky Trap?

Why can't I shoot Ball Lightning at one group of monsters and then Frost Arrow the other?

Something like this has to be in the works.

As far as stat points go, I think it's just the false feeling of choice, and being able to make a commitment that locks in place, having things come off as more fulfilling. I honestly feel like maybe the whole NV stack idea should bleed into the Paragon levels. Basically, you go from p1-100 with the same load out and if you change it you have to start from p1 again. This way, you don't have to build an all new character but there's much more emphasis on committing to build the bonuses. So, you can keep the same build going and build the bonuses, or wear magic find gear.
Reply Quote
i like d3 skill system i think its ok i dont think its worth bashing. I liked customizing my summoner with exactly how how/what my undead army should be a lot more tho. Do i want max revive? Do i want a skele army or mage skele or both maybe, should i max the resist for them, what curses should i pump to support them. Which dps spell should i raise hmmm poison nova or a bone spell..hmm. It was MY undead army. Theres really not that level of customization in this game, its just OK swap to cookie cutter ww spec, great now swap to cookie cutter rend spec great. Ya know? maybe u dont oh well too bad u missed out
Reply Quote
@cybergoat

i wear dex on my gear. idk what ur talking about in the rest of ur post but i wanted to tickle u with that fact. u like being tickled?
Reply Quote
So your Tempest Rush would be at the same strength as anyone else that also uses Tempest Rush. No one would take an average Tempest Rush and use it at endgame.


That is 100% incorrect.

Suppose someone wanted an average tempest rush, as well as, many other average skills to create a balanced character for all situations? Then another player comes along, and maybe only want a handful of skills that are considerably more powerful but the build might not be as good in many situations.

Then take another player who wants only 1 or 2 extremely powerful skill while forgetting about the rest; this would prove extremely effective in some situations but not so effective in others.. That is customization ShadowAegis, that does not exist in D3. That is what the stat points / skill trees are for.

Most people will not use only 1 build and make it a cookie cutter; most people are going to create multiple characters with multiple builds. It happened in D2, and it would happen in D3 if it was allowed.

Stat points are anything but an illusion of customization.. not even close.

"In this game, after all balance passes are finished. You will have all skills that are useful in endgame. Try doing that with D2's system, and you will not be able to accomplish it"

On the contrary ShadowAegis, I was able to accomplish this with a Paladin, Sorc, Amazon, and Druid, because I was carrying multiple sets of gear that allowed for it.. again something D3 doesn't have. It really is amazing what can be created with a diverse set of items and a skill tree/stat point combo. Anything is possible. In D3? Nope, not even close

No, contrary to what you think, no matter how you slice it, most skills are not useful in the end game in D3.


Look a stat point system without depth in choices. Choices that a player can make that would not lower their performance is what is needed in order for it to work. Otherwise you put them in a simple system like D2. Then you have it's formula of Strength enough for gear. Dex enough for gear or max block (majority went with max block), and the rest into vitality. Doing it any other way was wrong. There is where the illusion of choice really is.

Also skill points in this game would be the same. You would have two players using the same skill but I highly doubt that they would only be using average skills on their toolbar. No the only skills they would be using are ones that are either maxed out or near maxed out. If you give players only enough points to max out about 2 skills then they will use those on the two skills that they are using in their build. So if the main two skills in a build is like my shaker barb Seismic Slam/Earthquake, those two would be maxed on another player that wanted to use those same skills and max them out.

I do not think that players would love it if they could only max out one or two skills in their toolbar. No they would want enough points to max out all 6 skills. So if we went by D2's model that would mean giving us 120 skill points.

The illusion is that since you have points to spend, you automatically think that means you build will be far different from the one next to you. That your skills are different from the next. As different as night and day. When in reality your skills are the same regardless how they are designed. It could be TL2 or Path of Exile.

Or even other MMO's like The Secret World. All of those games and this one will give all players and classes the same amount of points and choices (lack of points). So everyone is in reality the same. The only real difference is where you choose to spend the points.

You mentioned Paladins, then tell me where there any paladin players that built a hammerdin. Where he/she only had one point into Blessed Hammer and one point into all of it's synergies? I do not think so, all hammerdins were built identical that is the point of that Tempest Rush comment.

If I wanted to build a Tempest Rush monk. Then my Tempest Rush monk would be the same as your Tempest Rush monk using the same system you outlined. Because spending your points any other way would be wrong.
Edited by ShadowAegis#1537 on 1/5/2013 2:16 AM PST
Reply Quote
So your saying that if we took this too the max...

Let's say that we can mix classes half one and half another, getting the skills of both classes to a point. Let's say we have ten classes to choose from. Let's say we can combo those 10 classes with each other in any combination of skills and stats from either class combo or single class we choose...

Are you saying we have no choice what so ever and we will all be the same?

Unless my math is wrong that is 81 combo options with just classes alone. Add in to 10 for the single classes and that is 91 options to choose from. I don't even want to get into the skill and stat choices...
Edited by Gares#1257 on 1/5/2013 4:57 PM PST
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]