Diablo® III

Can we please get past stat point complaints?

I totally agree. Stats are ultimately only there to facilitate the use of skills. The skills are what really matter.
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Play torchlight2 more, my embermage is running all str for critical strikes on a staff that hits blatantly hard vs. all focus, str + dex dodging at melee range and stun with knockback and extremely hard hits due to str increasing weapon damage. focus is for spells only i built my embermage differently from what you're already mainstreaming from guides or whatever.

As for outlander don't need to use guns or glaivse either, you can train it as a shadowling master and play it almost like a necromancer, many different options or more, doesn't have to be dex or focus either, can be just half focus and grow vit for shield block while minions do the work.


That is good that there is more customization than what I saw when I was playing Torchlight 2, but you're not hearing me.

Take all the choices you just listed and make them all powered by the same stat. You still have all the choices you listed. The stats themselves had absolutely no meaning; they were just a button you pushed to make your chosen play style not suck.

Have you really ever looked at a character build screen and thought to yourself "I want to play this character with a 300 in this box right here"? I haven't. I've thought to myself "hey, I want to play this sorceress that shoots ice orbs" or "hey I want to summon fire from the heavens or some !@#$" or "hey I want to get up in some guy's face and hit him with a stick." Then if the game had stat points, I clicked the correct combination of "+" buttons to make that happen - and if the game didn't have stat points, it didn't friggen matter because those weren't part of any customization I was making.

This isn't like DnD or Dragon Age or something where you can't intimidate someone during roleplay if you don't have enough Str or Con or whatever. Stats in Diablo exist only to make you not suck at whatever spells you want to use.


I'm not too sure what you're triyng to get at, i'm getting confused messages of you talking abt skills and stats, is this about skills or stats? Because in TL2 yes you can respec everythign as well, there's a potion that does it... and for you last 3 skills trained you can respec them so you can test the skill out before actually investing further points into it unless you're that gungho about everything without tasting and testing before diving.

as for stats if you had everything powered by 1 stat the whole argument goes to shreds and just say "why not just make it all one stat then?" "Omnisicent +3000" There, my char is good at everything. ... okay... then why put it there at all if that one stat does everything? In D3 that's what it is, a wizard = int does everything for them, a barb = str does everything for them. monk = dex. You may as well change all your stats into known as "Main Attribute(Damage + Dodge)*GoldColorText*" for monk as an example and the other stats are just like "+All resist" "+Armor". no other reason really to display it as int or str for monk.

Why would those classes ever invest in anything else, it's pointless, vit is just an HP pool so you don't get one shotted, if anything if you are getting 1 shotted you want as little vit as possible so you can survive 1 hit and turn it into a 2 hit, so if a monster hits 10000 on you you just want 10001 hp, so now it takes 2 to kill you zomg double the hits already.

If you've played Guild Wars 1, that's what Diablo 3's skill pool should've been and what their stats should've been given the amount of time they had to work with. It's already poor and lacking to anyone who's played GW1 as a veteran and over the years to come to D3 and go like.. wow this is.. like dead simple. GW1 you have over 1000 skills to choose from but with a hybrid profession you have a choice of at least over 300 for any given class. Your statpoints affect these skills and their modifiers. D3 Blizzard affects your skills and their modifiers not you.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 12/31/2012 6:24 PM PST
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The problem is not the stat point allocation.
The problem is the stats on D2 are not convincing people to spread those stat.
This doesnt mean we must remove it completely...
The fix for D3 is simple, Make stats more interesting for people to spread their points.
Example OK:
Intelligence giving double hitting/casting/skill, more manna, and + magic damage.
Dexterity giving dodge, runspeed, damage to range attacks, block chance.
Strengh: gives melee weapon damage, uninteruptible melee attack, defense
Vitality: gives health, defense and regeneration.

Soo what im saying is that, Rather than "punishing" by removing the stat point, why don't you give us a reason to spread stats,
Give other stats more meaning, that people might not just put 75 Dex for max block.
Like giving Int a usefullness for melee or something.
Edited by WhiteBootz#6395 on 12/31/2012 6:28 PM PST
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The problem is not the stat point allocation.
The problem is the stats on D2.
Energy Stat on D2.
The fix for D3 is simple, Make stats more interesting for people to spread their points.
Example OK:
Intelligence giving double hitting/casting/skill, more manna, and + magic damage.
Dexterity giving dodge, runspeed, damage to range attacks, block chance.
Strengh: gives melee weapon damage, uninteruptible melee attack, defense
Vitality: gives health, defense and regeneration.

Soo what im saying is that, Rather than "punishing" by removing the stat point, why don't you give us a reason to spread stats,
Give other stats more meaning, that people might not just put 75 Dex for max block.
Like giving Int a usefullness for melee or something.


^ see he gets it, more meaningful stats, not useless mainstream garbage per class.
I mean in D3 Dex gives Demon hunter more damage, so you could wield like a 2hand sword or something which is awfully weird and hit as hard as a barbarian without ever raising strength. Doesn't even make sense, not even close to illogical game logic sense.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 12/31/2012 6:29 PM PST
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In D2 items had stats requirements and most of a character's stats comes from leveling, having players assign stats made for a lot of customization. Do you use polearm for higher whirlwind range but requires you to pump Dex, or use shorter strength items?

In D3, it serves no purpose.
Edited by Wtflag#1258 on 12/31/2012 6:29 PM PST
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I'm not too sure what you're triyng to get at, i'm getting confused messages of you talking abt skills and stats, is this about skills or stats? Because in TL2 yes you can respec everythign as well, there's a potion that does it... and for you last 3 skills trained you can respec them so you can test the skill out before actually investing further points into it unless you're that gungho about everything without tasting and testing before diving.

as for stats if you had everything powered by 1 stat the whole argument goes to shreds and just say "why not just make it all one stat then?" "Omnisicent +3000" There, my char is good at everything. ... okay... then why put it there at all if that one stat does everything? In D3 that's what it is, a wizard = int does everything for them, a barb = str does everything for them. monk = dex. You may as well change all your stats into known as "Main Attribute(Damage + Dodge)*GoldColorText*" for monk as an example and the other stats are just like "+All resist" "+Armor". no other reason really to display it as int or str for monk.

Why would those classes ever invest in anything else, it's pointless, vit is just an HP pool so you don't get one shotted, if anything if you are getting 1 shotted you want as little vit as possible so you can survive 1 hit and turn it into a 2 hit, so if a monster hits 10000 on you you just want 10001 hp, so now it takes 2 to kill you zomg double the hits already.


Look, my point is this: when it comes to stat points (and skill points, ala D2's model), they serve, as padako said, only to facilitate the skills you want to use. In a game with stat/skill point builds, you could have the following choices:

1)Intellect-based Wizard that uses spells
2)Strength-based Wizard that uses melee

In a game without stat/skill point builds, you could have the following choices:

1)Wizard that uses spells
2)Wizard that uses melee

There is no fundamental difference in customization between having stat/skill points in your character build system and not having stat/skill points in your character build system.
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I'm not too sure what you're triyng to get at, i'm getting confused messages of you talking abt skills and stats, is this about skills or stats? Because in TL2 yes you can respec everythign as well, there's a potion that does it... and for you last 3 skills trained you can respec them so you can test the skill out before actually investing further points into it unless you're that gungho about everything without tasting and testing before diving.

as for stats if you had everything powered by 1 stat the whole argument goes to shreds and just say "why not just make it all one stat then?" "Omnisicent +3000" There, my char is good at everything. ... okay... then why put it there at all if that one stat does everything? In D3 that's what it is, a wizard = int does everything for them, a barb = str does everything for them. monk = dex. You may as well change all your stats into known as "Main Attribute(Damage + Dodge)*GoldColorText*" for monk as an example and the other stats are just like "+All resist" "+Armor". no other reason really to display it as int or str for monk.

Why would those classes ever invest in anything else, it's pointless, vit is just an HP pool so you don't get one shotted, if anything if you are getting 1 shotted you want as little vit as possible so you can survive 1 hit and turn it into a 2 hit, so if a monster hits 10000 on you you just want 10001 hp, so now it takes 2 to kill you zomg double the hits already.


Look, my point is this: when it comes to stat points (and skill points, ala D2's model), they serve, as padako said, only to facilitate the skills you want to use. In a game with stat/skill point builds, you could have the following choices:

1)Intellect-based Wizard that uses spells
2)Strength-based Wizard that uses melee

In a game without stat/skill point builds, you could have the following choices:

1)Wizard that uses spells
2)Wizard that uses melee

There is no fundamental difference in customization between having stat/skill points in your character build system and not having stat/skill points in your character build system.

You don't have an RPG then you have Gauntlet Legends on the Dreamcast, you run around and just kill stuff. You play a stereotype and that's all you are, you never develop it you have a set amount of cards and they never evolve in any way.

If you're thinking in D2's formula that's 12 years ago, today's a different age, the fact they had 12 years to innovate and didn't even do anything but simplify the system is already poor.
And without those options your permanence and unique builds are same across the 10 million others that own this game. To me that's downright horrid I don't want to be tunneled in with the rest of every other player I know out there, what's the point I might as well watch someone play it for me then because I know i'll be there eventually sooner than later. It kills creativity and has everyone copy & pasting each other, whereas if you had to re-roll and go through the frustration just to copy someone then maybe you should think of your own builds instead and use your mind.

It's just like in Guild Wars after so many years, it took years for players to develop builds and had tons of replayability in that sense and the ways of acquiring those skills, D3's skill pool is so small and for each class it's figured out within a few months not to mention it's unlocked as you level if that's the case why not just start at level 60 then????, and now if you're not runnin that most efficient buildi you're just giving yourself a longer grind. If you think as much as I do you know very well and would be aware that someone out there is progressing faster than you at the grind using a better build then you and all you gotta do is look them up copy & paste, buy some lesser gears and start doing what they do. No thanks not my cup of tea to go find someone's efficiency or to do myself a disfavor by trying to figure it out on my own when there were a million other monkeys out there figuring different combinations until one found the right one REALLY quickly.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 12/31/2012 6:38 PM PST
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I'm not too sure what you're triyng to get at, i'm getting confused messages of you talking abt skills and stats, is this about skills or stats? Because in TL2 yes you can respec everythign as well, there's a potion that does it... and for you last 3 skills trained you can respec them so you can test the skill out before actually investing further points into it unless you're that gungho about everything without tasting and testing before diving.

as for stats if you had everything powered by 1 stat the whole argument goes to shreds and just say "why not just make it all one stat then?" "Omnisicent +3000" There, my char is good at everything. ... okay... then why put it there at all if that one stat does everything? In D3 that's what it is, a wizard = int does everything for them, a barb = str does everything for them. monk = dex. You may as well change all your stats into known as "Main Attribute(Damage + Dodge)*GoldColorText*" for monk as an example and the other stats are just like "+All resist" "+Armor". no other reason really to display it as int or str for monk.

Why would those classes ever invest in anything else, it's pointless, vit is just an HP pool so you don't get one shotted, if anything if you are getting 1 shotted you want as little vit as possible so you can survive 1 hit and turn it into a 2 hit, so if a monster hits 10000 on you you just want 10001 hp, so now it takes 2 to kill you zomg double the hits already.


Look, my point is this: when it comes to stat points (and skill points, ala D2's model), they serve, as padako said, only to facilitate the skills you want to use. In a game with stat/skill point builds, you could have the following choices:

1)Intellect-based Wizard that uses spells
2)Strength-based Wizard that uses melee

In a game without stat/skill point builds, you could have the following choices:

1)Wizard that uses spells
2)Wizard that uses melee

There is no fundamental difference in customization between having stat/skill points in your character build system and not having stat/skill points in your character build system.


Still, you will have a reduced number of variance on how that melee wizard plays.
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12/31/2012 06:31 PMPosted by KradisZ
You don't have an RPG then you have Gauntlet Legends on the Dreamcast, you run around and just kill stuff. You play a stereotype and that's all you are, you never develop it you have a set amount of cards and they never evolve in any way.


That's....what Diablo is? There is no roleplaying in Diablo - there never has been. The personality of the character you play is not influenced by where you put your stats, stats only affect the effectiveness of the abilities that you've chosen to use.

12/31/2012 06:32 PMPosted by WhiteBootz
Still, you will have a reduced number of variance on how that melee wizard plays.


As in choosing between dodging or tanking? Fair, but stat points are not a necessary system to make that choice.
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12/31/2012 06:38 PMPosted by Inune
That's....what Diablo is? There is no roleplaying in Diablo - there never has been. The personality of the character you play is not influenced by where you put your stats, stats only affect the effectiveness of the abilities that you've chosen to use.


You can argue that for any game, every game is freaking role playing you play the role of a half devil-human known as Dante in Devil May Cry, doesnt make it an RPG though, he's got stats styles and skills to be leveled through red orbs, still isn't an RPG.

Diablo was an RPG you played the role of whatever skill/synergetic combo/attack/tank you preferred to master at but that's OLD SCHOOL systems.

Diablo 3 TAKES A STEP BACK and is confusing you learn everything yet you're only allowed to use 4 actives + 2 more at a time, why can't I use everything, and for passives i'm only allowed 3? uh. if you're going to talk about fundamentals try increasing option size first before limiting a player down to nothing with questions in their mind. and the fact that Elective Mode isn't enabled by default is just more limiting until you explore the Options Menu which was really blatantly insulting for a game claiming Build Diversity and if the player never discovered it i'm pretty sure more would be fuming if it was well hidden away.
Edit: Tell me of a player that's in inferno with elective mode disabled? It's already indicative of choice of how THEY want to play not how BLIZZARD wants YOU to play. A great example is Mass Effect, they give you the CHOICE of autoassign or manual alloc, not force you auto assign, a choice is always better than no choice by default.

EDIT:
Bottom line if you have less choice you have less gaming to do, and wil eventually hit rinse & repeat mode really quickly. And if consumers have boiled down to such simple systems for a cash grab of 60$ I would be ashamed and would instinctively milk that market as well in a business-sense. But I'm not a business person i'm a game enthusiast. I only got D3 because friends were hyped about it and were all getting it I got it so we could play together, now none of them play because they find it tedious & boring and have moved on to other games and that was 6 months ago at the end of July/Beginning of August aka my last login date. They cashed out so did I with what I could and we're now using that to buy HotS and never look back at Diablo again, well for them anyways, me on the other hand still here on forums checking to see what's new; which isn't much.

D3 is lucky to have people still criticizing it.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 12/31/2012 7:44 PM PST
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87 Human Mage
13630
So, instead of improving character customization via meaninful stat/skill-point choices that allow you to make the character YOU want (in the mode of PoE (inb4flame)) it's a great plan to remove it? And have everyone's characters exactly the same bar a few points of int/str/dex?

Kay.
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didnt see a stat point complain thread since ages tbh, idk what you talk about op
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I was a little torn about the decision to auto allocate stat point in DIII. Then I played TL1 and TL2, and realized how old and tired that game mechanic is.
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I agree and have said many times that the only way any manual point system (both skill/stat points) would be a system that has a lot of depth. Where spending points in path A would be just as viable as path B. Where the only difference is in play style. Where there is not a drop in performance because you choose path B over path A.
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70 Tauren Paladin
13565
12/31/2012 07:30 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
I agree and have said many times that the only way any manual point system (both skill/stat points) would be a system that has a lot of depth. Where spending points in path A would be just as viable as path B. Where the only difference is in play style. Where there is not a drop in performance because you choose path B over path A.


Or you could make a slightly more complex game, where A-stat gives you more mobility/sneakiness, B-stat gives you more tankiness and durability, C-stat gives you higher crits but lower hit chance, D-stat turns you into more of a glass cannon but makes up for it with maintained control, E-stat allows you to be able to equip a certain weapon/armor class at the expense of some other benefit etc etc etc?

And that could be from stat points alone. Then they could factor skill point builds into the equation, with each tier being meaningful and useful. Instead of giving up, saying it's all an illusion of choice and giving us nothing to keep us playing/experimenting/rerolling etc.
Edited by Sal#6192 on 12/31/2012 7:36 PM PST
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yo i HATE stat point. i use to love it on d2, but its WAYYY better beign able to change your skills up. i love going from CM wizard to Archon farming wizard. i wouldnt change it for anything.
-- but i do think they should add permant classes u customize yourself. example " Class 1" then u put all the moves u love for the. then "class 2 " cm wizard .that way u can change quickly and effectivly
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yo i HATE stat point. i use to love it on d2, but its WAYYY better beign able to change your skills up. i love going from CM wizard to Archon farming wizard. i wouldnt change it for anything.
-- but i do think they should add permant classes u customize yourself. example " Class 1" then u put all the moves u love for the. then "class 2 " cm wizard .that way u can change quickly and effectivly


that's what I said about being so limited when your character knows everything in d3 yet is only capable of utilizing 6 of the... whatever poolsize is and 3 passives out of ilke 20. ridiculous and strange.

I mean you guys can grind for hundreds of hours but couldn't be bothered to click a + button next to a stat for like 5 seconds each level? Wooow... Didn't know selecting a stat to upgrade was that taxing on the brain.
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 1/1/2013 12:52 AM PST
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12/31/2012 06:38 PMPosted by Inune
That's....what Diablo is? There is no roleplaying in Diablo - there never has been. The personality of the character you play is not influenced by where you put your stats, stats only affect the effectiveness of the abilities that you've chosen to use.


During Diablo 3 development, stat/trait points was considered to be the roleplaying aspect for character progress:

http://www.diablowiki.net/Traits

We wanted more customization, and we wanted customization that really spoke to the idea that, ‘I’m going to roleplay my character and focus in one area.’ Skills are really awesome, but when players think of who they are as a character, they don’t tend to think of, “I like to Whirlwind.’ They’ll use Whirlwind with their Barbarian, but it’s not how they define themselves. They think, ‘I’m a Barbarian who’s exceptionally strong or exceptionally tough!’ And that’s what traits are. The affect the core attributes of your character to let you customize and expand them.


However that was removed because developers thought a stat point system would be too much work for players.

Now we're left with little to no customization options.
Edited by Death#1665 on 12/31/2012 8:35 PM PST
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so u want to use even more skills? u want what faster movement, attack speed, damage spells, and 10 more things. Then u want instead of 3 passive skill 10? pshh. then whats the point of the game if u pick all u want. 3 is better
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