Diablo® III

Can we please get past stat point complaints?

01/01/2013 08:22 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
There are downsides, the main one is that there is only an illusion of customization. The only way a manual point system (both stat/skill points) would work is if it has some depth. Where spending your points into path A would be just as viable as path B. Where your character's performance is about the same. The only difference between A and B is primarily play style.

An illusion of customization is exactly what a video game is. It's a make believe land we go to to have fun. Agreed, viability is key, and to counter your point, it's abundantly obvious that this DIII lacks a variety of viable builds, it more or less lacks a variety of playable characters.

01/01/2013 08:22 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
Stat points were spent in D2 according to the following formula. A formula btw that I discovered without looking it up and I am not a top notch theorycrafter. Strength enough for gear, dex enough for max block, and the rest into vitality, absolutely zero into energy unless you are an energy shield sorc. This is what the majority done with their stat points.

I never suggested that the system couldn't be improved upon, but you're still not providing a reason why stat points had a downside.

01/01/2013 08:22 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
Skill points was not much difference. Max out your spammable skill along with it's synergies to give it the punch it needs and you are done. I could quite easily plan out a bonemancer and only take about 10 minutes (not counting the gear).

Again, no downside here. The illusion of control still better than not at all. Moreover, synergies didn't do the game any good, they assured that nobody would experiment and just pick their main skill and beef its synergies, which I thought was lame. But you could make synergies by way of passive skills, like a passive skill that improves range abilities, regen, or whatever.

01/01/2013 08:22 PMPosted by ShadowAegis
In fact Blizz tried the skill points but the players in the tests were just dumping them into the higher skills, when they got the next higher tier they just repec'd and dumped all of their points into the next higher tiered skill. Players were not using all six skill slots.

Respeccing is one of the biggest problems in the game. It's not only too available, it's encouraged. They say it's to encourage experimentation, and it does that to the extant a player tries a skill that nobody uses and discovers why nobody uses it, and changes back. Great job!

1. Rerolling is a lot of fun to people. A game that has depth requires learning about it. A simple game like D3 requires no learning and look how boring people find it to be.

This. Times a million, or about 14% of the people that bought Diablo III expecting something like it.

01/01/2013 09:10 PMPosted by Xoh
Instead of improving on D2s system (which was, admittedly a simple case of enough str to wear your best gear, dex for block cap if you wanted it and the rest into vit) Blizzard chose to remove it. It's not an "illusion of choice", as you and Jay seem to believe. Every bit of customization adds personality to your character - it's yours, not some premade that everyone else has.

Well said. I would add that many illusion of customization actually equate to customization.

01/02/2013 03:05 AMPosted by JoeMaorian
I think people like skill tress and stat points, because they are autistic. Diablo games and d3 are games for autistic people who like to repeat the same process over and over and keep improving it any way they can, that way d2 was actually better, because it forced you to reroll chars, rethink skills etc satisfying the autism more. The thing is - its all really pointless.

I like how you edited this post but didn't remove the offensive, ignorant, and moronic part. I don't know if you know anything about autism, but I can tell you from plenty of experience that it has no relevance in the context you put it. You could be more general and use a word like "retard" but for some reason you choose to single out autistic kids. Ironically, autism is a social disorder, maybe you should get yourself evaluated for it.
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01/02/2013 01:11 AMPosted by Khendo
Imagine if all your stat points were on your character instead of on your gear. Then all of your gear could have a plethora of cool affixes, yielding more diversity. Honestly, it wouldn't matter if you assigned the points or not, as long they were on your character and not on your gear.

Imagine if Diablo III made improvements on it's predecessors in stead of jacking it in San Diego.
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The problem isn't the stats directly. What the system in D2 allowed players to technically do is be independent from the gear. You could either build your character around a spec and find gear to optimize it and add flavor stats or you could build your character around a piece or a few pieces or a gear set.

The problem in D3 is that people have no control over how much stats they have, because it is all on the gear. The character if stripped of all the gear is completely useless. The gear is made to be the center stage in D3, not the character a.k.a the player. The gear makes the game here, not the player. Which makes it so much frustrating because all you're ever looking for is gear. You're never actually trying to have fun or do it just because you want to kill something or even go back because you wanted to try something new with that class because technically in D3, new is whatever Blizzard decides is less nerfed than all the other skills.

Now I don't say D2's system was perfect either, I mean it's 12 years old for crying out loud. Give those guys a break, in their time they had managed to break the mold and make something different from what everyone else was doing. But the difference here is that D2's system wasn't broken, D3's is. D3's system itself has an inherent flaw where in you are never actually in control of your character, the system is. You never have the power to just go butt naked and kill diablo if you wanted to, you can take any lvl 60 charcter and just strip it bare and try to go kill Diablo in normal difficulty, you'll still die. Doesn't matter you're lvl 60 or 100 in that case. In D2 though your character had abilities and powers apart from your gear, and all the gear did was enhance it and optimize your build by adding those few essential stats that you needed.

A true successor to D2's system, I would say, is the system Path of Exile is trying to implement. Technically it's still the same thing in that your character has their own stats and the skill are provided through gems which can be augmented by support gems and the skills become more powerful as you level up the gems, which level along with you. As for the stats themselves, let's say you start as a marauder, which is technically the same as a barbarian, so essentially a class that uses strength. You start allocating points in the stat tree or as they call it the passive skill tree and you can take it to eh dexterity side, give it superior blocking abilities and ability to attack extremely fast. Or you could take it to the witch side and give it spell capabilities. Or you could do a hybrid as in take it do the witch side and augment spell abilities which are all activated through melee combat therefore you still require strength side stats so it becomes similar to a berserker from torchlight 2.

That would be the ideal growth of the system that D2 was based upon and the people still complain about the stat points because blizzard with all their experience to dish out games that are groundbreaking and industry leading, could not come up with something like this? It is a disappointment because everyone had expectations from them to deliver something that made the trilogy proud and show that blizzard north was the only one who could make games and live up to their potential. But they didn't. They took the easy way out.

The stats are what gives you control of your character rather than finding an witching hour with bis stats or a wand with 1200 damage. What can your character do without any gear on? Can it do anything? Kill anything significant? In D2 the gear was just to enhance and bring the build you came up with to the level that it became perfect and overpowered, but realistically you could do it all without the gear. In D2 all you needed was skill. Skill to play, build, make your character the way you wanted it to be. In comparison, In D3 your character is nothing, absolutely nothing except cannon fodder, without the gear. Walking piece of flesh and bones. Their philosophy was wrong, and the basis of the philosophy starts from the stats, which is why the stats argument can never die, cause in D3 the power is with the system, not with the character.
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Oh and since you're saying that variety is so bad in a stat based system where the player allocates the stats, have a look at the path of exile build of the week 14. In that build the maximum amount of health the player can ever have, is 1. Yep, just 1. His whole build is based around attacking fast, hard, energy shield leech, and relying on his energy shield to stay alive.

He doesn't have a single vit passive stat picked out cause it's totally useless, and he has stats picked out that allow him to do more damage at maximum health which he is always at cause he is always limited to 1 health. That is called a different build and experimentation. And the best part, the build of the week episodes are commented on by the founder of the company that is making path of exile himself. Imagine Jay Wilson ever doing something like that.

I think that what blizzard set out to achieve was exactly something like this, extreme level of experimentative and unique builds that no one could ever think of. But the problem was that they kept nerfing these builds. I mean who cares if it's game breaking, the game is meant to be broken for crying out loud. As long as it's not cheating I don't think it matters.

They are controlling everything, not the players. That's the main issue
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01/02/2013 06:06 AMPosted by DeadRu
Character only needs 1 point in health, immune to major damage, always gets full life buff. Oh please.

well technically he is only immune to chaos damage which is the only type of damage that can bypass the energy shield and damage you, so because he is at 1 health point permanently it makes sense that he is immune to the type of damage which makes it impossible for his build to work at all.

My point with mentioning that was that people wanted something that imaginative of a choice in this game and not the super restricted system that we have. I mean yeah technically that build is crazy risky and ridiculous, but if someone has the skill then they could make it work better than anything else. In this game though the best spec is the one that hasn't been nerfed out of oblivion yet. At least you have the option to be ridiculous and have a stupidly crazy build and make it work. In this game any time anyone gets one of those, blizz nerfs it out of existence.
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Just to feel like you have power in creating your char??

I mean auto skills, auto stats = boring leveling...

Y not just create a char be 60 and go?

taking it away just limits you and char don't feel personilzed...
can also say everyone goes or has same BIS items..
char's really feel bland..

Pretty much what I said.
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Agree fully with the OP here.

I still love D2, and there are still many builds I'd like to try out. However, spending 30 minutes staring at a stat sheet per level up, having an anxiety attack over where my stat points should go when I roll a new character is just mind-numbing and stupid. Same with the skill trees. I can't roll a new character in D2 and put skill points anywhere willy-nilly and hope to survive Hell difficulty. That kind of customization is really just a novelty. You have to specialize your character in D2, otherwise it's just crap may not get past Normal Meph, let alone make it to Normal Baal.

That's why so many people say they LIKED D2's system over D3's, because it was punishing for people who made mistakes. Thing is, a game's difficulty being punishing shouldn't be over numbers and where points get slotted.

Take Dark Souls. That game is pretty punishing in the difficulty department, but a character with a high enough Soul Level, that maybe threw an upgrade here or there into stats that weren't as useful, can still survive till the end. Even if you have to do some serious Soul farming in order to put points into the "right" stats to make it past the final boss, there's still at least a little wiggle room.

Look at pretty much ANY specialized D2 build and you'll see barely a centimeter of wiggle room. "Put 80% of stat points into X, a couple into Str for better armor options, the rest into Vit." Skills, "Max out this, this, this, and this, 15 into that, and the remaining two or three wherever you want." Just looked up a completely random Necro build and it says this: "Zero into Strength, Zero into Dex, a couple into Energy, ALL into Vitality." Check it out, http://www.diablowiki.com/Amplify_Damage_Necro_by_Gaby_de_Wilde

I'm sorry, but forcing people to specialize, even if it means a variety of builds arise, doesn't mean it's a good system. And most people who criticize D3 for it's "lack of build diversity" go by your timetable, they fail, give into temptation and hit the AH, suddenly they do better and "oh, this game's all about main stat." Really? I saw a profile once for a Monk, jacked up Str and Armor, only about 2k DPS, and a set of skills that made him an iron-skinned tank. Pretty cool.

My take on the devs' approach with D3 is that they wanted to streamline a ton of things that players were doing in D2 anyway. It's the eternal debate between government applying rules, or people taking care of themselves. Government applies too many rules, suddenly people feel oppressed. You take away ALL law and government, and there ends up being so much anarchy, people lay down rules and guidelines among their own community because rules NEED to be applied, and the people realize, "gee, we need governing, don't we?"

People flame Blizzard all the time for how they feel D3 corrals people into making their characters exactly the same (simply because everyone's classes, once they hit level 60, have all the same skills, but if they applied the same kind of dedication to finding all their gear from scratch, trying out skills and builds on their own, and hoarding gear in their stash that emphasizes and commits to certain approaches (focusing on a certain minor stat in addition to main stat, saving items that increase damage or output for a specific skill, etc.), they could make their characters far more customized and not have to worry about slotting numbers and digits that don't make that big a difference in the long run.
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lol your missing the whole point of RPGs. there all about choices good and bad. id rather make a mistake in my build and start all over than get "spoon fed" through every aspect of the game. stats and skill points add depth and flavor to a game, something that makes an RPG what it is. just look at all other games in this genre. dont get me wrong this is a good game it just can be better and this is something that could have filled that void of emptiness some feel in this game. the few who remember what real RPGs are all about are the ones who feel betrayed.
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Unless there are more uses to stats than just black and white damage etc.

E.g the way PoE does it - Strength gives you HPs + melee physical damage (+ ranged physical damage with certain talents). Dexterity gives you chance to hit + evasion. Intelligence gives you mana and energy shield. In addition, all weapons/armor have different requirements of stats, some require 2 different stats., e.g Armor+Energy Shield chestpieces will require intelligence + strength, a short sword will require Dexterity + Strength, etc etc.

I am going to talk about something that is in all rpg's. Even Path of Exile will have them. I am also talking about builds. Now their true names might be different but you will get the idea.

1. Cookie Cutter builds: These builds are usually the mathematical best builds in the game. Sometimes they also include the OP builds that get nerfed later on. All games will have cookie cutter builds because all games use numbers. There is no game out there they does not have a cookie cutter build.

They are the best builds for your class and role. Then there usually will be one class and spec that rules all. This is usually figured out mathematically by theorycrafters that can do the math.

2. Near cookie cutter builds. These can compete with the cookie cutter builds. They are close to putting out the same numbers as the cookie cutter builds.

A good example of this is Rift. When it first launched the best dps warrior build was 30 Champion, 24 Beastmaster, 12 Paragon. Other builds that were close used at least 6 into Paragon to get the Strike Like Iron damage buff. Without it your dps as a warrior would drop like a rock.

3. above average: These builds are still strong builds. Although they are not as efficient or as powerful as the other two. They can still clear all of the content and even in a raiding will help you in raids.

4. Average: These builds cannot compete at all with the top builds in the game. These usually will be viable while leveling without dying that often. But trying to go into a raid or any other endgame progression. You would die a lot, these builds are not there for that purpose at all. Some of these could even be the for fun leveling builds in D2. The ones that players knew they couldn't use to beat hell Baal, but were fun to play.

5. Below average: These maybe for fun as well but will struggle through the game. While they can get you to level cap. You better get used to taking a lot of dirt naps here

At one time I myself was where you were, actually believing that only a few players will use the optimal (cookie cutter) builds. But years later taught me how wrong I was thinking like that. I have no doubt that in D2 there are millions of hammerdins. The players did not make hammerdins just because it is a fun build to play, but it is because it is the best build to use, period.

The more competitive the game is, then you will see more players using the best builds in the game. Do you really think that in Path of Exile someone would take a below average build and try and beat the cookie cutter build. No way would any sane player do that.

It is all based on numbers, if the gap between one build and the next is huge, then the number of players using the cookie cutter builds sky rockets.

City of Heroes Freedom pre issue six (enhancement diversification) had a power combo of Hasten/Stamina. I seen almost every hero using that combo. You might ask why, well Hasten fully slotted was perma. So you had a permanent 70% recharge reduction. Stamina fully slotted gave you the equivalent of having a 67% endurance reduction in all of your powers (endurance=mana here). The only ones not using it where the ones that built concept characters or new players.

Since then I seen on the forums players always asking what is the best class and the best build for that class. Now they are not wanting what class is the most fun to play. No they are wanting the very best class and the very best build for that class.

Try taking a below average build and compete against the cookie cutter builds in the Ironman, Cut Throat, and the Attrition leagues in Path of Exile and tell me where you end up. I am talking purely about numbers here.
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01/02/2013 04:48 AMPosted by TomToDie
I never suggested that the system couldn't be improved upon, but you're still not providing a reason why stat points had a downside.

That was the downside to them they had no alternate path go that would provide as much benefit as the known formula for spending them in D2. Doing it any other way was wrong.

01/02/2013 04:48 AMPosted by TomToDie
Again, no downside here. The illusion of control still better than not at all. Moreover, synergies didn't do the game any good, they assured that nobody would experiment and just pick their main skill and beef its synergies, which I thought was lame. But you could make synergies by way of passive skills, like a passive skill that improves range abilities, regen, or whatever.

I do not want illusion of customization, I want real customization. The only way to achieve it in a point system is one with real depth to it. Where you would have multiple paths that would get you to the same end result. Where paths A, B, C are only different in play style. While their performance is almost identical.
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01/02/2013 08:04 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
That was the downside to them they had no alternate path go that would provide as much benefit as the known formula for spending them in D2. Doing it any other way was wrong.

That's only true assuming everybody is using the same gear. Diablo II had ap enigmas which were much lower in strength req than, say a shadow plate (which would be ridiculous to use for an enigma I know, but bear with me). So the difference of 100 stat points would be available to the person with the sweet ap enigma and the dope with the sp enigma would be pumping strength for another 20 lvls.

You're suggesting that everybody already has all of their gear planned out, which although sometimes the case, it's certainly not always true. That can amount to a difference of some significant number of skill points.

01/02/2013 08:04 AMPosted by ShadowAegis
I do not want illusion of customization, I want real customization. The only way to achieve it in a point system is one with real depth to it. Where you would have multiple paths that would get you to the same end result. Where paths A, B, C are only different in play style. While their performance is almost identical.

I agree with this, but nobody can argue that DIII does this right. Moreover I highly doubt a majority finds the current system to have more depth than the one in Diablo II even before synergies were introduced.

There are many ways DIII could give this system more depth, like for example, allow specific rune skills to be leveled up. So maybe that stupid useless barb move (I think it's called Chains of the Ancients or something) at first would be crap but when one of it's rune skills is leveled it scales dramatically giving a player something to work towards.

Other op moves could scale more modestly. That's a fix I've been screaming for since release, just never seems to get traction and I'm not sure why. Oh well.
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There is a happy medium that nobody has even brought up.

Each class has a main stat and vitality is likewise importnat. Why arent your main stat and vitality the only 2 that your able to put stats into.

Here is an Examples (say they gave eacy Char 7 stat points per level:
+1 Automatically into Dex (to help with dodge etc...)
+1 Automatically into Int (to help with All Resist, etc...)
+5 Your Choice of distribution of Vitality and Strength

+1 Automatically into Str (to help with armor etc...)
+1 Automatically into Int (to help with All resist, etc...)
+5Your Choice of distribution of Vitality and Dexterit

+1 Automatically into DEX
+1 Automatically into STR
+5 Your Choice of distribution of Vitality and INT

By doing this you get to maybe go over the top and be a little bit stronger in STR or maybe have a little bit more vita.

To be quite honest in 60 levels your not getting alot of main stat points. Actually 1 good Amulet can get you 4x as many stats as actually getting to level 60 can get you. But still it could be fun way to be able to assort your stats.
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There is a happy medium that nobody has even brought up.

Each class has a main stat and vitality is likewise importnat. Why arent your main stat and vitality the only 2 that your able to put stats into.

I just hammered you on my thread for poor grammar, are you two different people?

This idea you mention seems like both systems with neither of the benefits. I don't see why going the whole way and making it all up to the player wouldn't be better than having someone feed you half the spoon and making you feed yourself the other half.
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1)You attempt your first build while getting into the game.
2)You realize you failed because you didn't have a complete understanding of the state of late/endgame and the challenges you'd be facing (or you got lucky with your first build and it sorta works).
3)You respec/reroll your character into one of the handful of optimal builds that either you or someone on the internet have figured out.

Eventually majority of players will go towards the optimal builds, I don't see how that is any different from what we currently have. No one is forcing people to use the same runes or the same skills (people do it anyway). D3 gives a great flexibility in skill choices in that you can change your spec for different scenarios i.e. ubers, xp farm, dueling etc.

no of course it isnt different,

thing is just, at least I have the feeling that in D2 your skills meant something giving your character power. But Diablo 2 was easier compared to D3. Not to mention skills didnt had this cool down times and it didnt feelt like a button smasher. Seriously, play a CM wizard and get crazy from all those 344364343 keys you have to push on your keyboard. Or the WotB build which they ruined in my eyes as well, its no problem to keep up the Berzerker, but you have to presh so many keys because you have to "spend" the fury somehow you gain ... no clue why people believe this makes it more "difficult". It isnt. Its just anoying. But yeah. What ever.
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100% agree with OP thoughts. I did use online builds for d2 tons of times when I needed to roll a new character.
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choice > no choices

improving > removing

D3 devs just make bad decisions
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Why is everyone so die-hard stuck on D2's systems those are 12 years ago re-spec wasn't thought of, but it is now, but permanence still isnt' there, a small respec of your last few skill points is enough to have you experiment & figure out a certain path to invest, the same should go for stats as well.

I mean if your character is proficient at EVERYTHING like D3 you should be able to use everything then all without having to be limited and restricted by skill slots and assign slots. zz
Edited by KradisZ#1651 on 1/2/2013 9:12 AM PST
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