Diablo® III

200k unbuffed dmg with 4 pc zuni?

12/25/2012 02:45 PMPosted by Bort
I don't understand how AS fakes up the dmg, how is AS any different than chc, chd or black dmg besides the extra mana drain?


There's a few reasons, both for farming lower mps and for taking on the higher levels.

On lower mps the idea is to move as fast as possible. WD have to stop moving to cast a spell, so this basically means you want to spend the least time casting possible. So increased attack speed is good right? Wrong! The ias helps you cast faster, but the spells dont actually do any more damage. So a WD with 200k unbuffed and no ias will cast slower, but kill everything in one shot. A WD using 5+ ias items will cast faster, but usually requires more than one cast to kill trash. So the ias WD is actually slower because it requires multiple casts, even though they may have similar unbuffed damage. If you want high effective dps for farming, work on getting your minimum damage as high as possible (with intel and base weapon dmg).

For farming higher mps levels the ias has an even more pronounced effect, but not in a good way. It is simply not possible to one-shot monsters or breeze through mp10 - at the end of they day, you will always hit a point where you need to stand and fight. With the absolute best gear, your probs looking at about 90 seconds for an elite group. For that 90 second period, your effective dps is based first and foremost on your mana levels. Bears can't do any damage if you have no mana... The whole purpose of ias is to cast faster, but not harder (whereas int, cc, and cd hit harder, but not faster). This basically means anything which allows you to cast faster, but not hit harder, is bad for your effective dps because it will be impossible to spam bears/AC/WoS. This is the reason you will see most top doctors using slow weapons. If you even consider a Manajumas on mp10, you effectively need the zuni set or mempos for mana regen. (Incidentally, the best attribute of the Skorn is the slow attack speed, because it means infinite bear spam, with each spell hitting really hard).

That's basically why a lot of people say using ias items on a WD is cheating. It increases your paper dps, but doesn't actually make your character stronger. This specific issue only applies to WD - every other class benefits from better attack speed. That's simply because every other class has infinite resource generation, but WDs dont. There are many, many threads in the forums complaining on this exact issue.

Personally, I think the greatest challenge of the witch doctor relates to mana management. A "perfect" WD, with gear too costly for anyone in the real world, would probs max out around 300k dps (while still keeping all the normal important stuff, mana regen gear and using no ias items) using a SoJ. The best WDs I have seen in this game do about 220k unbuffed with one or two ias items, life steal, and a SoJ. You won't see many people geared like this in the forums...

As an interesting sidenote, take a look at Impking's profile. He "only" does 140k unbuffed dmg, but I guarantee he does a lot more damage than most WDs with over 300k dps.
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8===========D~~~~

Amazing what daddy's credit card can get you...
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12/28/2012 02:32 AMPosted by Trefnwyd
There's a few reasons, both for farming lower mps and for taking on the higher levels.


Thanks for the explanation, makes sense now.

Wouldn't the build/skills used have some effect on using IAS items though? For example, rain of toads seems to be a channeled spell, so I assumed that a higher attack speed would mean the channeling for 1 tick of ROT would take less time to complete and be higher dps than without the AS gear?

I also assumed that for a semi "proctor build with chance to stun/freeze gear that attack speed boosts the proc chance considerably.

All things being equal, I can see why the critical hit chance stat > attack speed, but if mana isn't an issue, I'd think there is still a significant benefit to AS gear, more than just "paper dps". Am I wrong?
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i got 205k unbuffed with zuni and soj
-22 bear cost on top of it
also vs reflect i got 850 physical res base, 3.00 life steal
0 loh, with proper build not losing health vs reflect damage to bears

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/aerial-2212/hero/10536583
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230k unbuffed dps, 215k w/ SoJ, Mana regen not really an issue even with PtV. 4 Pc Zuni helps.

I do have to slow down when facing RD in MP9/10 as my current LS can not sustain the dps.

I also, I have to dimiss the Garg as for whatever reason his RD hurts me more than my own darts. ANyone else have that issue?
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I don't get how mana regen is not an issue with 1.44 base weapon, and 3 pierces of armor with high ias. And you got 0 bears cost reduction.
Maybe at lower mp when you can kill really fast, guresome feast saves you. But at mp10, you will run into major problems against elites.

Ideal way to gear up wd is to use 1.2 aps weapon like some people posted here. I'm going to change my manajuma knife for one, just it is really hard to find one with comparable dps and full 3.00 life steal.

For wd that runs higher mp, mana efficiency is everything.
For low mp it really doesn't matter, since you get enough mana from health globes.

Also someone mentioned, that 90s is average elite mp10 kill time with best wd gear. You can kill a lot faster, if you do burst damage with voodoo and paranoia. With 200k unbuffed and soj, as long as you don't run out of mana you can easily kill melee elites in 15-20s at mp10, just permanent bear stream owns them. Ranged take way more time, and extra health are real pain in the !@#. Basically the more health stuff has, wd gets exponentially worse vs it, because his whole mana engine depends on how fast can you kill to reset cooldowns, regenerate mana and produce health globes.
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12/28/2012 09:13 AMPosted by aerial
Also someone mentioned, that 90s is average elite mp10 kill time with best wd gear.


This is probably for another thread, but is mp10 worth it? Maybe I had bad luck, but farmed mp8 for a few days and found it terribly inefficient with drops per time spent. Particularly interested in those that posted here with all these nice gear and builds.

I have never been able to do higher than mp9, and found it incredibly tedious. This was never meant to be an epeen thread, just wanted to see how some of the rich and powerful chose to spend their gold and pick their skills.

12/28/2012 09:13 AMPosted by aerial
I don't get how mana regen is not an issue with 1.44 base weapon

I run mp5 at what I think is an efficient pace, sacrifice dogs a lot, spam rot and proc cc while the mana regens some or more health globes pop. Mana hasn't been an issue farming mp5, but certainly is at mp 8-9 during uber runs. Don't think I'll ever be farming mp10, and rarely do ubers anymore.

Nice gear - still curious why the lack of pickup radius, maybe I'm overvaluing PUR, maybe the thing of the deep has just made me incredibly lazy. I still don't get how one farms without it. I guess a lot of you posters in this thread have another set of gear for farming?
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yup zuni 4 set

275k dps
4k armor
750 resist
56 k hp

according to diabloprogress, substandard is only toon with a 4 set that out dps/gears me. While I am presently ranked 20th WD in Americas dps wise, 22 in gearscore. I would have to put down 16k more dps to catch him. Unless I buy more IAS (Tal Rasha chest, Zuni with trifecta and maybe a skorn with IAS) I don't think I have a shot outside for leveling para. But I have no plans on abandoning defense for paper dps.

grats to him!
Edited by Rakimallah#1875 on 12/28/2012 10:11 PM PST
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"
The ias helps you cast faster, but the spells dont actually do any more damage. So a WD with 200k unbuffed and no ias will cast slower, but kill everything in one shot. A WD using 5+ ias items will cast faster, but usually requires more than one cast to kill trash. So the ias WD is actually slower because it requires multiple casts, even though they may have similar unbuffed damage. "

So if i throw 3 ghost bombs to your 1... or 4 jars of spiders to your 1 .. or shoot 4 darts to your 1 dart with each having the same damage output its slower? and your cast can 1 shot but because of IAS we cant? ... thats retarded!
Edited by Ivaniko#1286 on 12/28/2012 6:53 PM PST
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im at 200k unbuffed using 4 piece zuni set and a thing of the deep so i feel my mana regen is pretty decent, as well , my hp is just over 50k and my allres sits at just shy of 800 (unbuffed)
also have over 40 yrd radius for gi and gf :)

the current build i have setup is for mp 7, if i go mp10 i use a nice 0 cooldown zombie dog set
Edited by HashAssassin#1855 on 12/28/2012 7:05 PM PST
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This is probably for another thread, but is mp10 worth it? Maybe I had bad luck, but farmed mp8 for a few days and found it terribly inefficient with drops per time spent. Particularly interested in those that posted here with all these nice gear and builds.

I have never been able to do higher than mp9, and found it incredibly tedious. This was never meant to be an epeen thread, just wanted to see how some of the rich and powerful chose to spend their gold and pick their skills.
In time your gear will improve and then you´ll destroy mp8 and move on to mp9/10 and eventually mp9 becomes boring and you only want to play mp10.

Imo it´s worth it, when it becomes efficient legs start raining. My mp10 solo run is Core-heart-tower2-tower1-cursed tower platform-rakki´s-fields-keep3-keep2-keep1-sky crown it takes an hour to complete.

12/28/2012 05:43 PMPosted by Bort
I guess a lot of you posters in this thread have another set of gear for farming?
I dont, what you see is what you get :)
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4 Piece Zuni here. Not sure why you couldn't get over 200k using the Zuni set, as it is the best full set of any. All the pieces are great, and the ring is, in my opinion, one of the best in the game. Lot more of us 200k+ WD's out there than I thought. Nice work to all involved.
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yup zuni 4 set

275k dps
4k armor
750 resist
56 k hp


That's a sick Skorn you got there. Wondering how you get around the reflect dmg at high MPs?
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yup zuni 4 set

275k dps
4k armor
750 resist
56 k hp


That's a sick Skorn you got there. Wondering how you get around the reflect dmg at high MPs?


ty

I switch to a LS weapon and off hand for RD mobs. Does the job.
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Mp10 ofc isn't worth it for efficiency but fun/challange is ok.
Pickup radius, if you run bears, surprisingly doesn't need to be high. Grave injustice has 8y base, so with 1 item you are at 15 which is decent for bears that have short range. Also fact that you don't "auto pick" all globes from all screen instantly, sometimes helps, since you have control over how fast you want to pick them up. Picking up more than 5 within 10s is a waste, also picking them up when your mana is full is also waste, since you don't get any mana then.
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I'm the opposite. I can do mp10 just fine, however I find it boring and slow not challenging. It's simply a gear check not a challenge you don't face anything unique in MP10. It's exactly the same as every other MP just with larger variables attached to vit, and damage. For me pants swap, a couple passive swaps, drop my MF gem for life, and I'm good to go for the long grind. zZz

I like to play quick games then do something else I can't grind for hours anymore like when the game first game out it's just to much of the same over and over. A couple quick 10-15min runs a few times a day works for me.

The whole IAS debate is a joke people are way to jaded to look at other perspective or think about it logically. They love to find acute ways to look at things to try to argue a preconceived point of view. (well I guess that can be said about most forum debates) .

Take Trefnwyd's "TL;DR" post what he neglects to point out is you can get IAS in-conjunction with everything he recommended it's not like the stats are mutually exclusive. The whole basis of his argument is just nonsense.

With that said to the OP if I swap my SOJ I'm at 200k+ with a 4 piece zuni's so yes it's obtainable.
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 12/29/2012 3:33 AM PST
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There is good point with ias, your damage per mana is extremely important. It doesn't matter at low mp, because there is no mana issues then, can pretty much spam whatever skills you want, it is equal ownage.
But once stuff has more hp, you just begin to deal way less damage, because of mana problems. You need to spam widowmakers for example. Each jar = you lose tons of dps, it could have been bears instead.
With properly balanced build, higher mp isn't really that slow, if you can take down elites in 15s, and trash just dies instantly, when run is smooth, nothing is taking too long to kill. You will not one shot stuff like for example say, mp5, but high mp is still playable. Just as others said, as slow weapon as possible, get best damage/mana coefficient for your char.
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There is good point with ias, your damage per mana is extremely important. It doesn't matter at low mp, because there is no mana issues then, can pretty much spam whatever skills you want, it is equal ownage.
But once stuff has more hp, you just begin to deal way less damage, because of mana problems. You need to spam widowmakers for example. Each jar = you lose tons of dps, it could have been bears instead.
With properly balanced build, higher mp isn't really that slow, if you can take down elites in 15s, and trash just dies instantly, when run is smooth, nothing is taking too long to kill. You will not one shot stuff like for example say, mp5, but high mp is still playable. Just as others said, as slow weapon as possible, get best damage/mana coefficient for your char.


That's false (in regards to AS), but hey the more people who want to think that no skin off my back. There is a balance you need to find based on your gear the slowest option possible is NOT the best option., but I'm long past trying to help people look beyond the bs mantra and figure out how to optimize there WDs..

I don't use VQ in upper MP and don't have mana issues. There are other ways around people just tend to flock the solution they see others using.

It's still extremely slow 15s for an elite is under optimal conditions with all your cooldowns ready to go it's now the average over the course of a run. The only way upper mp is worth anything more then a gear a check is if you are a playing with less then lawful monks ;)

Edit: Also what is with the rash of EU players coming to the US forums to debate? Is the EU forum that dead. You guys have such a different economy then us I don't see why it's even relevant to come over here to try compare sword sizes
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 12/29/2012 3:42 AM PST
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Ok bro, so reveal us the secret.
If you have same dps, but one is with 1.5 aps and 2nd char has 2 aps.
How is the one with 2 aps superior to 1.5? As witch doctor?
The one with 2 will run out of mana faster, dealing less damage.
There is no synergy, not a single benifit of having faster attacks as wd.
Spells that generate mana generate more, but you are using way more mana as well, while using your dps spells, which makes it counterproductive.

Nobody is saying a top high end wd should avoid ias. If there was zuni helm with 9% ias, sure I would use it. Or gloves, ofc go for trifecta. Just never trade for example crit for ias, on a wd, or mana regen for ias. Ias is good stat, but last one worth adding to your spec, when there is no other way to increase dps.
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