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Good job brahm and Ivan. They just don't know how much a bit of ias owns. Stop trying to defend and let the sheeps ramble on. Yes it's true we run in circles when we run oom and think damn if only I had a skorn I could watch me painfully cast bears still.
There are other ways, and they usually require using primaries or something else less efficient. The "solution" that people flock to is something that has been proven to be the best. Barbs flock to WW and wizzies flock to CM - are they simply sheep, or is it because this is the best build? This thread is specifically about WDs with over 200k unbuffed dmg and a 4 piece zuni set. At this level, primaries are effectively useless for dps - they are only useful for procing passives or loh. Any efficient high dpser will be doing their damage with bears, AC, WoS, ZD, or some other spell which costs a lot of mana. If you are ever relying on darts or ghost bomb for damage on mp10 you're just not doing much damage. Simple math, or the plethora of videos online, clearly show that WD primaries suck compared to other spells. For this simple reason, mana management becomes the most important focus on mp10.
You have 3 ias items, don't use vq, and don't have particularly high mana regen (though nice ZB reduction). How exactly is it that you don't have any mana issues on mp10? There's no doubt you have an awesome build, I'm just questioning the fact that you have no mana issues...
I don't use VQ in upper MP and don't have mana issues. There are other ways around people just tend to flock the solution they see others using.
Without getting into the brief history of WD builds the majority of people flock to what is laid out in front of them in a nice neat package. Sometimes it's because it's the best spec, sometimes it's just a "good enough" spec, most of the time it's just a spec that is simple and gets the job done. Some specs will always be better then others but just because it's popular doesn't mean it's the best (ie tank drs circa 1.0.2). All specs are going to have +/-'s depending on each persons gearing.
I've outlined my specs in many threads so I don't want to retype it all again but here is a synopsis.
For upper MP my "main sepc" is a swap to SA/BR/(GI or SV) from SA/GI/GF. Actives can stay the same. (I have lots of alt specs I play around with though). No primaries, only gear change is pants and gem if I solo or need to tank.
My regen is better then it seems, with a pool of over 1450 SA gives me close to 15mps, Zuni's give me another 20mps. I also get 38 mana per kill, and 37 per touch from a single cast of locust (it's a misleading spell) plus multiple spell reduction and a pool of 1450, that is A LOT of attacks before going oom. Combine that with "microing, and/or throttling" to avoid damage and position for better attacks and you don't run out of mana... ...often
It's not perfect, it does have it's flaws, but it works well for how I like to play the majority of the time.
I have no problems capping over 200k with this spec (as per this thread) and running it any mp. A quick weapon swap to my knife, or a swap for my SOJ to a cc/cd ring and it's there.
Oh and I don't quite know why you are giving me a lecture on primaries I'm aware of the positives and negatives and at no point have I ever tried to claim using primaries as you main attack is efficient by any means in upper mp.
Just to be clear I'm not knocking VQ it works well, I do play with it from time to time. I just prefer not to use for how I've spec'd out my char I don't like having to interrupt the attacks I want to do with the attacks I need to do. I'm very keen in stacking simultaneous damage the duration of all primaries spells DOT component is to short imop but that's a different topic.
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 12/29/2012 10:24 PM PST
It is funny, because when I reduced my aps from about 2.0, to 1.5 (and I didn't lose dps, just traded ias for more int, crit, got slower but same dps weapon), power of my wd increased dramatically. I just kill faster, because I don't have to use crappy primaries, and deal no damage during that in comparison to bears. Simple as that. It works, When I respec and do runs with primary while I'm oom, when I use widowmakers, with faster weapon. It works much slower.
Nobody also saying about standing still in one spot. Ofc you stutter step bears, you move around. But you can facetank mp10 with proper gear, bears do leech this much. Horde phasebeast pack with firechans, no problem at all for such wd, you outheal them. Untill ofc you run oom, your primary has no chance to do it.
And again, if you consider low mp, then I agree, go ias all the way. Even 4aps would be fine, keep on one shotting stuff with your ghost bomb, it is all fine. But so are other spells. Technically fastest build uses locust swarm, which ironically also works better with higher base damage at cost of ias, since ias doesn't affect dot damage.
Wd will still have at least around 1.5 aps, because slowest 1h is 1.2, and then you are kind of forced to use lacunis or inna pants for movement, gloves to have decent dps must be trifectas, witching hour is another bis. You will most likely not have ias from your zuni ring, just pick max damage crit instead, soj grants no ias, zuni helm, and chest also no ias.
Only remaining slot is amulet, and most people use tal amulet, quite unlikely to be godly trifecta because it would just cost fortune. But if it was, then cool. Amulet like that would put you at around 1.6 aps.
Increasing attack speed further will cost yoour mana regen directly (no zuni set). There is basically no other slot where you can add ias to increase dps. You can only replace item, to add some dps, like for example using both lacunis, and inna pants (at cost of massive ehp loss, and mana efficiency).
Most important part of it is weapon though. With 1.2 aps you can add ton of ias armors and still be relatively fine. But if you use 1.5 aps sword as base for example, then you screw your mana efficiency no matter what.
Basically what attack speed does on wd, it makes your damage to cost you more mana.
Edited by aerial#2212 on 12/30/2012 1:01 AM PST
I had 220k dps with semi-decent gear, I was only thinking about getting more dps. Then I watched Imp for 10 min, he was spamming endless bears on keeplv2, compared that to my play, kiting like a monkey on mp8 spamming spirits then bears for few seconds and going oom and repeat. Then I read his thoughts about manaregen and sustained dmg, sold my IAS gear,zuni cc helm,mojo and ring. Bought cheap SoJ, manaregen helm etc. dropped my dps to 150K and started building from there.
Now I got 1.52 aps with spear, 91 manaregen, -22 cost to bears and -15% from BR, I dont need other mana passives, I can use GF&JF. I don´t need primaries nor locusts nor any mana generating skill, I can use 4 buffs in my spec and my dmg is sustained, almost unlimited mana, endless wawes of bears. When I cast and move, mana is not dropping at all.
With manajuma I got 1.78 aps, I can do fields of slaughter on mp10 with it without going oom, too much but there´s a clear difference to my spear, it becomes a lot clearer in voodoo or with a frenzy shrine.
They just don't know how much a bit of ias owns. Stop trying to defend and let the sheeps ramble on.By looking at your spec, I´d say that ias owes you. This is how much ias owns:
Not one single WD ability scales it's damage per cast with IAS.
Since you can't get enough IAS, and at the same time maintain every other damage stat,
to make primary abilities compete with bears then IAS loses it's value.
For example the "top" WD, (according to diabloprogress),
with the highest amount unbuffed "damage", has 2.48 attacks per second.
I have 1.51 attacks per second.
Lets check the math:
These hit range numbers are taken from d3rawr.com.
They represent 100% weapon damage and include everything like Pierce the Veil,
+%elemental and bonus vs elites.
Hit Range 32614 - 72820 (Avg 52717,0)
Crit Range 159811 - 356820 (Avg 258315,5)
Hit Range 39403 - 84040 (Avg 61721,5)
Crit Range 222626 - 474827 (Avg 348726,5)
The build I'm normaly using for farming, ( http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/5847977556 ),
lets me spam bears and maintain 135% weapon damage worth of AoE dots at the same time.
Dread Average DPS (Unbuffed)
(708% bears @ 1.51 APS) + (135% AoE dots/s)
Hit 563587 + 71168 = 634755
Crit 1828874 + 470781 = 2299655
Unlike Cash I'm also using Soul Harvest and Gruesome Feast, which is not reflected at all in these values, that's an additional ~180k pure damage.
The build Cash is using combined with 0 mana regen from gear, along with Pierce the Veil,
lets him spam Ghost Bomb and maybe keep Manitou up, (if he doesn't use Acid Cloud too much).
Cash Average DPS (Without pets)
(140% Ghost Bomb @ 2.48 APS) + (83% Manitou/s)
Hit 214297 + 51229 = 265526
Crit 1210778 + 289443 = 1500221
I'm not entirely sure how pet DPS is calculated.
But unless they manage to do 369229 dps (non-crit) and 799434 dps (crit),
I'd say my 173k unbuffed damage beats his 553k buffed damage, for farming high MP.
Especially since all my damage is AoE, whilst most of his is single target.
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