Diablo® III

Is there any point to farming higher mp?

Where's your info about that bonus item drop coming from? I'm basing my info on the info given in the MP blog: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7540457/

In Inferno, in addition to increased experience, Magic Find, and Gold Find, whenever a monster dies and drops an item normally (whether it be gold, a potion, or a piece of gear), the monster also has a chance to drop an additional bonus item. The chance to drop a bonus item will scale up with each MP level as detailed in the table below.


From that it seems the bonus item drop is directly dependent on the normal mob item drops. There's also no mention of some mobs not triggering the bonus drop, or the "30% chance of your % chance for a bonus item based on MP". I admit I haven't really tested the drop much, so I imagine you have some experience in the matter as the basis for the posted info.
Edited by Loroese#1415 on 12/27/2012 10:41 PM PST
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In general however I agree with you math, I just weight bonus items slightly higher. My models show a 16% difference between MP8 and MP7 at max MF while yours is showing 12%. I just want some empirical data is all.

I'm getting 2400 kills an hour in MP8, anything past 3k in MP7 and there will be no doubt it would be superior in drops. If I can get data to support that with a large enough sample size however, I'd feel much better about using my model for MP8 vs MP0-6 as well.
Edited by Shandlar#1961 on 12/27/2012 10:43 PM PST
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12/27/2012 10:40 PMPosted by Loroese
From that it seems the bonus item drop is directly dependent on the normal mob item drops. There's also no mention of some mobs not triggering the bonus drop, or the "30% chance of your % chance for a bonus item based on MP". I admit I haven't really tested the drop much, so I imagine you have some experience in the matter as the basis for the posted info.


Lyr posted in the forums about white mobs having an average 30% chance to drop 'something' which triggers an item drop. The original drop does not have to be an item for bonus items to trigger, it can be a tome, or a potions, or a pile of gold, and you will get a bonus item chance.

The 'big guys' not dropping bonus items is from testing in MP10. They drop 2x piles of gold and no items almost every time. This is impossible with 100% bonus items, unless bonus items cannot be a 'third drop'. Any mobs that can drop 2x items normally, therefore will not drop a bonus item in this case.

Thats why heralds are so good, they have a 100% 'something' drop rate, they then have a 10-15% chance of a second drop. When this double drop happens, you dont get your bonus item, but the other 85-90% of the time in MP10 they will always drop an item.

So you'll see 2 items, item and gold, item and potion/tome, or occasional 2 piles of gold (instead of 2 piles of gold and a bonus item).

Tremors and golgors/malechors however have a 100% chance of 2 drops, most commonly 2 piles of gold. They will never drop a bonus item.
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what is mp?
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mp = monster power

i dont know why you guys keep chugging out the kills per hr as efficency for loot, xp sure. Obviously its related as more kills more chances of drops, but it will always diminish the relative efficency of higher mps. What really counts is drop rolls, if we are looking for legs.

Also as shand is mentioning, different mobs have different drop tables, so killing a ton more scorpions might not be as good as killing less larger demons, specially acounting for the bonus drop.

When im doing mp8-10 runs i tend to focus in doing keeps2, rakkis + fos and skycrown leaving out the craters, after i get my 5 stack in core, the tower and keeps 3 if needed. might add crater 2 and the next tower if i feel playing for a bit longer though. For me the leg drop efficency of that is about the same as full mf mp2-3 archon speedruns. I bet that when i pump my dps some 20k more or so it will surpass it as it is still rather slow.

My point with this is that the kills difference between run types is abysmal but the leg drop rate is about the same.

edit: i wish we could have access to the mobs drop tables, it would make figuing out the bonus items efficency much easier.
Edited by ximae#1789 on 12/28/2012 3:52 AM PST
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mp = monster power

i dont know why you guys keep chugging out the kills per hr as efficency for loot, xp sure. Obviously its related as more kills more chances of drops, but it will always diminish the relative efficency of higher mps. What really counts is drop rolls, if we are looking for legs.

Also as shand is mentioning, different mobs have different drop tables, so killing a ton more scorpions might not be as good as killing less larger demons, specially acounting for the bonus drop.

When im doing mp8-10 runs i tend to focus in doing keeps2, rakkis + fos and skycrown leaving out the craters, after i get my 5 stack in core, the tower and keeps 3 if needed. might add crater 2 and the next tower if i feel playing for a bit longer though. For me the leg drop efficency of that is about the same as full mf mp2-3 archon speedruns. I bet that when i pump my dps some 20k more or so it will surpass it as it is still rather slow.

My point with this is that the kills difference between run types is abysmal but the leg drop rate is about the same.

edit: i wish we could have access to the mobs drop tables, it would make figuing out the bonus items efficency much easier.


I dont get what you are driving at here. Ceteris paribus most people are going to be able to kill a herald of pestilence on MP0 way faster than anyone who is trying to do the same on MP10, and I'm talking 3-5 times faster. So unless these things are dropping 5 bonus items on MP10 its never going to be worth it spending 5x the time killing them on MP10.

Bottom line is HP scales up too much on the higher MPs, at some pt it becomes inefficient to farm those MPs, imo it starts to get silly above MP5.
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12/28/2012 04:38 AMPosted by TasteDeath
I dont get what you are driving at here. Ceteris paribus most people are going to be able to kill a herald of pestilence on MP0 way faster than anyone who is trying to do the same on MP10, and I'm talking 3-5 times faster. So unless these things are dropping 5 bonus items on MP10 its never going to be worth it spending 5x the time killing them on MP10.


Except we're SNS, and have a wind up. Increasing mob hp by 6x does not translate to increasing kill time by 6x cause we cause increasingly more dps the longer a fight takes.

The limit in low MPs is not dps, its movement speed. Thats why at a certain point an archon does MP1 runs the exact same speed as MP0 runs.

Therefore I contend that you can't just do the math on this one. Loroese's math is saying 12% more loot, my math is saying 16%, but the mob health increase is 40% between MP7 and MP8. So why are we even talking about it if its so obviously irrelevant?

Because tacking 40% more HP to the END of every battle does not translate to 40% longer kill times. You only spend a portion of your run killing, and a portion traveling between mobs. Taking 40% onto the end of a kill may only be a very small fraction of a second cause its during out 'peak' dps.

I'm fairly certain after a certain dps, MP8 will become more efficient than MP0-7 for legends/hour.
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12/28/2012 04:38 AMPosted by TasteDeath
I dont get what you are driving at here. Ceteris paribus most people are going to be able to kill a herald of pestilence on MP0 way faster than anyone who is trying to do the same on MP10, and I'm talking 3-5 times faster. So unless these things are dropping 5 bonus items on MP10 its never going to be worth it spending 5x the time killing them on MP10.


at this

My point with this is that the kills difference between run types is abysmal but the leg drop rate is about the same.


Since i run both setups, full mf archon lower mp speedruns or sns higher mp runs, im finding that once you get the necesary dps higher mps will out do lower mps efficency wise. its the massive drops u get from the bonus item that floods the ground with whites + blues + yellows where ever ur killing decently sized mob packs plus the added mf that is giving me these crazy results.

your thought process should be correct but because of ...

Except we're SNS, and have a wind up. Increasing mob hp by 6x does not translate to increasing kill time by 6x cause we cause increasingly more dps the longer a fight takes.


and this

Because tacking 40% more HP to the END of every battle does not translate to 40% longer kill times. You only spend a portion of your run killing, and a portion traveling between mobs. Taking 40% onto the end of a kill may only be a very small fraction of a second cause its during out 'peak' dps.


it doesnt proove to be true, i dont really take much longer to kill white trash in mp10 compared to mp7, actually trash dies too fast in mp7 for me to refresh wormhole correctly.
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I dont get what you are driving at here. Ceteris paribus most people are going to be able to kill a herald of pestilence on MP0 way faster than anyone who is trying to do the same on MP10, and I'm talking 3-5 times faster. So unless these things are dropping 5 bonus items on MP10 its never going to be worth it spending 5x the time killing them on MP10.


Except we're SNS, and have a wind up. Increasing mob hp by 6x does not translate to increasing kill time by 6x cause we cause increasingly more dps the longer a fight takes.

The limit in low MPs is not dps, its movement speed. Thats why at a certain point an archon does MP1 runs the exact same speed as MP0 runs.

Therefore I contend that you can't just do the math on this one. Loroese's math is saying 12% more loot, my math is saying 16%, but the mob health increase is 40% between MP7 and MP8. So why are we even talking about it if its so obviously irrelevant?

Because tacking 40% more HP to the END of every battle does not translate to 40% longer kill times. You only spend a portion of your run killing, and a portion traveling between mobs. Taking 40% onto the end of a kill may only be a very small fraction of a second cause its during out 'peak' dps.

I'm fairly certain after a certain dps, MP8 will become more efficient than MP0-7 for legends/hour.


I'm aware that cm/ww has a windup, but it doesnt change the fact that its still going to take at least 3-5 times longer to kill something on MP10 as compared to MP0 (with another spec).

That has been my pt all along, the loot on higher MPs isnt 3-5 times better than MP0, heck it isnt even twice as good since the bonus item drop doesnt affect all monster types, so unless somebody is able to kill stuff at less than twice the time (compared to MP0), its simply not worth the trouble.

The upper limit for efficiency is pretty much at ~MP5, because its nearly impossible to match the killing speed on MP0 from thereon.

Edit:

Btw I think I wasnt clear on what I meant by "killing stuff within a certain time frame", what I meant was the time taken to do the entire run. So if an MP0 Rakkis/FOS run takes 5 mins on MP0, you will need to do it in less than 10 mins to just "breakeven" on efficiency.
Edited by TasteDeath#6239 on 12/28/2012 8:33 AM PST
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well I do take less than double the time to do the same run on mp8 sns than mp2 archon.

ex:

core -> tower -> keeps 3 till 5 neph then keeps 2, skycrown and rakkis + fos. I do tend to pick up stuff and backtrack if i havent cleared at least 90% of the map.

Archon mp2: it takes me around 25 mins and i get around 2-2.5 legs/hr

todays sns mp8 runs: average of 40 minutes and ive gotten 2.5 legs/hr. to be precise it has taken me 2hr to do 3 runs with total of 6 legs.

btw: mp0 is for exp you want to be doing at least mp1 for loot.
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Ok I would like to see the you tube links to mp 8-10 CM speed clearing this would put to bed exactly how quick a 200k DPS CM can do it frankly I am skeptical that is is less then twice as long as MP2 but willing to watch.
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i dont stream or have any recording software but maybe some othe cm can.

is there any free soft for this thats not gonna lag me too much? if answer is yes i might give it a shot.

btw im nowhere near 200k dps, just 140k.
Edited by ximae#1789 on 12/28/2012 9:39 AM PST
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well I do take less than double the time to do the same run on mp8 sns than mp2 archon.

ex:

core -> tower -> keeps 3 till 5 neph then keeps 2, skycrown and rakkis + fos. I do tend to pick up stuff and backtrack if i havent cleared at least 90% of the map.

Archon mp2: it takes me around 25 mins and i get around 2-2.5 legs/hr

todays sns mp8 runs: average of 40 minutes and ive gotten 2.5 legs/hr. to be precise it has taken me 2hr to do 3 runs with total of 6 legs.

btw: mp0 is for exp you want to be doing at least mp1 for loot.


25mins on MP2 isnt the fastest possible time for that route, you are probably not doing it correctly if its taking you 25mins to do that, watch some vids and you will find that the alkaizer route (which is your route except you do skycrown and keeps3 instead of crater2) can be done in less than half that time. I can do the alkaizer route on MP0 in under 8mins, since MP8 only offers +71% chance of a bonus item, I'd need to do it in under 14mins to make it worth my while... and I dont think its possible with any spec.

I think the problem is many CM/WW players dont realise how much of a "faceroll" MP0 can be if you know how to do it right, so they think its ok to spend 30-40mins on an MP7-8 run. Well actually its ok, it just isnt the most efficient way to lvl or farm.
Edited by TasteDeath#6239 on 12/28/2012 9:46 AM PST
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@taste - that is exactly what MF does, increases the odds of rolling extra affixes. It affirms that in the link you posted. The rolls themselves may still be junk, MF does not help with that.

@pichapiegal - I usually item farm (and hit key warden) at MP6 when soloing. Any more than that is a bit of a grind for me. I like to farm with others on MP4 for legendaries, that's pretty quick. Farm in groups at MP8 for keys. Usually über at MP8 wih my group of friends. Though maybe ill start trying to do it at 9 since I've increased my armor and can run SNS without getting one shot by mag. Still a little squishy, but it's worth it for the DPS. Shoot me a friend request if you wanna do a run or über sometime!
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yeah i know thats not an optimal timing, I can do the alkaizer run in mp0 in around 10 mins using blizz + sb. But as i stated i going for the loot so im picking up rares + backtracking to clear the map etc.

My point was giving both run times using the same.. mmh lets call it method. I could do both runs faster for sure.
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@taste - that is exactly what MF does, increases the odds of rolling extra affixes. It affirms that in the link you posted. The rolls themselves may still be junk, MF does not help with that.



Unfortunately its not significant enough to matter. According to the data, an increase of 150mf (from 250 - 400) only increased the odds of rolling a 6 affix rare by 0.48%.
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yeah i know thats not an optimal timing, I can do the alkaizer run in mp0 in around 10 mins using blizz + sb. But as i stated i going for the loot so im picking up rares + backtracking to clear the map etc.

My point was giving both run times using the same.. mmh lets call it method. I could do both runs faster for sure.


I'm sure you could, but is it possible to do MP8 alkazier in under 15mins even if you left behind all loot? I very much doubt it...
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nope im sure i couldnt.

probably not even in mp4 using cm, the mechanics are different. As id doubt an archon with the same gear cost as me could do mp8 in 30 mins.. diff builds for different purposes.

I think you are not getting the point though, cm is never gona have the same clear time as archon as it is never gona reach the same ammount of kills/hr as archon. Cm benefits from higher mps and longer fights. So What we benefit is from the bonus item boost with the additional mf from the higher mps and in my experience that evens out the efficency.

edit: im always talkin about loot not xp.

edit 2: btw im not biased about cm either, as i mentioned it before i run both setups and if one was giving me superior loot id be using it by default. Thing is im getting about the same legs/hr with both.
Edited by ximae#1789 on 12/28/2012 11:04 AM PST
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nope im sure i couldnt.

probably not even in mp4 using cm, the mechanics are different. As id doubt an archon with the same gear cost as me could do mp8 in 30 mins.. diff builds for different purposes.

I think you are not getting the point though, cm is never gona have the same clear time as archon as it is never gona reach the same ammount of kills/hr as archon. Cm benefits from higher mps and longer fights. So What we benefit is from the bonus item boost with the additional mf from the higher mps and in my experience that evens out the efficency.

edit: im always talkin about loot not xp.

edit 2: btw im not biased about cm either, as i mentioned it before i run both setups and if one was giving me superior loot id be using it by default. Thing is im getting about the same legs/hr with both.


The thing is why would anyone, be it archon or any other spec want to clear MP8 in 30mins? As I've pointed out there is no benefit to be gained in doing that.

And I'm talking about loot too, 30mins for an MP8 run is just inefficient when you can do an MP0 in 8mins or less. So again to answer the OP's question, there is no point in running higher MPs unless you are able to "faceroll" higher MPs in roughly the same time as you would in the lowest MPs.
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How the heck are you doing any mp in 8 min?

I assume core, tower, crater 2, rakkis and loop feilds, keeps 2, sky. right?

I have to recharge MW/stormarmor plenty of times like 8 x 240 seconds thats 32 min at even mp2. I think some ppl exaggerat times.

I haul butt too, never stop, never lose archon - unless i click off it to recharge passives - with 24ms + TP + scramble. show me 8 min.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 12/28/2012 11:56 AM PST
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