Diablo® III

Is there any point to farming higher mp?

12/29/2012 11:36 AMPosted by TasteDeath
I dont understand how you are getting 3x as many drops on MP8. The additional chance to get a bonus item is only 71% on MP8, so assuming every single mob can drop a bonus item (which isnt true) you will at best get 1.71x more items on MP8 compared to MP0.


Bonus item chance doesn't only trigger if the mob was going to drop an item. If the mob drops a pile of gold, or a potion, or a tome, you still get a chance of a bonus item.

So if a mob has a 30% chance to drop 'something' then a 33% chance of item, 33% chance of gold, 33% chance of potion/tome....

10% of kills will drop an item in MP0.

21.3% of kills will drop an extra item in MP8.

So in essence you are more than doubling your item drops from white mobs.

My runs are pretty much spot on 1200 white mobs and 50 elites (roughly 25 packs)

So 25 packs = 5 * 3.5 + 20 * 4.5 = 108 items from elites
1200 * 0.10 = 120 items from whites

228 items per MP0 run.

MP8 would be...

Same 108 items from elites
Same 120 items from whites normally

1200 * 0.71 * 0.30 = 256 bonus items.

484 items instead of 228 item drops per run, or an increase of 2.12x as many items. Then a 200% increase to magic find is applied to all drops.

So 375 vs 575 is 42% effective improved chance of legendary drop. 2.12 * 1.42 = 3.012

That means MP8 vs MP0 you would get more legendaries an hour as long as you can do MP8 within 3x as long.

I'm using the numbers we've recieved by blizzard to do that calculation, however they have admitted that not all mobs can drop bonus items, and some have less than 30%, while others have higher, that is only the average chance to drop 'something', so I feel its not reasonable to just take it at face value.
Edited by Shandlar#1961 on 12/29/2012 11:53 AM PST
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Shandlar, what you are saying makes sense. Going strictly by my own experience, 57 paragon levels with my barb farming only mp7/8 has yielded many decent items that I had no problem selling. One for several hundred million and several for up to 100 million. 69 paragon levels with my wiz farming mp 2 and I have virtually nothing in comparison.
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12/29/2012 11:52 AMPosted by Shandlar
I dont understand how you are getting 3x as many drops on MP8. The additional chance to get a bonus item is only 71% on MP8, so assuming every single mob can drop a bonus item (which isnt true) you will at best get 1.71x more items on MP8 compared to MP0.


Bonus item chance doesn't only trigger if the mob was going to drop an item. If the mob drops a pile of gold, or a potion, or a tome, you still get a chance of a bonus item.

So if a mob has a 30% chance to drop 'something' then a 33% chance of item, 33% chance of gold, 33% chance of potion/tome....

10% of kills will drop an item in MP0.

21.3% of kills will drop an extra item in MP8.

So in essence you are more than doubling your item drops from white mobs.

My runs are pretty much spot on 1200 white mobs and 50 elites (roughly 25 packs)

So 25 packs = 5 * 3.5 + 20 * 4.5 = 108 items from elites
1200 * 0.10 = 120 items from whites

228 items per MP0 run.

MP8 would be...

Same 108 items from elites
Same 120 items from whites normally

1200 * 0.71 * 0.30 = 256 bonus items.

484 items instead of 228 item drops per run, or an increase of 2.12x as many items. Then a 200% increase to magic find is applied to all drops.

So 375 vs 575 is 42% effective improved chance of legendary drop. 2.12 * 1.42 = 3.012

That means MP8 vs MP0 you would get more legendaries an hour as long as you can do MP8 within 3x as long.

I'm using the numbers we've recieved by blizzard to do that calculation, however they have admitted that not all mobs can drop bonus items, and some have less than 30%, while others have higher, that is only the average chance to drop 'something', so I feel its not reasonable to just take it at face value.


Yes you get a 71% chance to roll an additional item if any item drops but unless the underlying assumption is that the bonus item will never be gold, potion, etc you need to account for that chance again.

And yes going from 375 to 575 does give you a +42% effective chance of a leg but you need to be MF capped at MP8 to gain that advantage. I dont see many people running MP8 with MF capped, most dont even have a hellfire ring or XP gem because they need all the gear they can get to roll that MP quickly.
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12/29/2012 01:04 PMPosted by KillerElite
Shandlar, what you are saying makes sense. Going strictly by my own experience, 57 paragon levels with my barb farming only mp7/8 has yielded many decent items that I had no problem selling. One for several hundred million and several for up to 100 million. 69 paragon levels with my wiz farming mp 2 and I have virtually nothing in comparison.


Its probably the economy, nothing sells these days (unless its BIS), game is pretty dead now.

I've gotten items with top rolls on both low and high MPs, it has no effect on item types/rolls, its all RNG.
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12/29/2012 01:07 PMPosted by TasteDeath
Yes you get a 71% chance to roll an additional item if any item drops but unless the underlying assumption is that the bonus item will never be gold, potion, etc you need to account for that chance again.


Well yeah, all bonus items are items. Its bonus items, not bonus drops. If the 71% bonus triggers, you will get an item no matter what. It then rolls against MF normally for legendary/set/rare.

12/29/2012 01:07 PMPosted by TasteDeath
And yes going from 375 to 575 does give you a +42% effective chance of a leg but you need to be MF capped at MP8 to gain that advantage. I dont see many people running MP8 with MF capped, most dont even have a hellfire ring or XP gem because they need all the gear they can get to roll that MP quickly.


Being maxed MF actually favors lower MP. If you are running unmaxed MF its actually better for those of us farming high MP cause the +200 MF of MP8 is a larger % increase in relative drops.
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Indeed i got a whole page of legs yesterday. Litany Ik belt is in there and other multimillion gold drops a month ago, virtually brimestones now.

Now not only do you need that 1% good legendary, it has to roll right to make any money.

These ballers today didnt get there via drops but with 'market corrections' aka flipping.
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 12/29/2012 1:17 PM PST
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12/29/2012 01:12 PMPosted by Shandlar
Yes you get a 71% chance to roll an additional item if any item drops but unless the underlying assumption is that the bonus item will never be gold, potion, etc you need to account for that chance again.


Well yeah, all bonus items are items. Its bonus items, not bonus drops. If the 71% bonus triggers, you will get an item no matter what. It then rolls against MF normally for legendary/set/rare.

And yes going from 375 to 575 does give you a +42% effective chance of a leg but you need to be MF capped at MP8 to gain that advantage. I dont see many people running MP8 with MF capped, most dont even have a hellfire ring or XP gem because they need all the gear they can get to roll that MP quickly.


Being maxed MF actually favors lower MP. If you are running unmaxed MF its actually better for those of us farming high MP cause the +200 MF of MP8 is a larger % increase in relative drops.


I read the blog again and it doesnt say that the item will never be a potion/gold.

"In Inferno, in addition to increased experience, Magic Find, and Gold Find, whenever a monster dies and drops an item normally (whether it be gold, a potion, or a piece of gear), the monster also has a chance to drop an additional bonus item. The chance to drop a bonus item will scale up with each MP level as detailed in the table below."

Note that they referred to gear as gear, and items include potions, gold, etc. So I think your assumption isnt correct.

My pt regarding maxed mf is that the gulf isnt usually 200MF even though MP8 gives you 200MF, simply because its much easier to max out MF/XP bonus with items on low MPs. Some people can run MP0 as quickly as anyone with stuff like leoric ring and MF gear, you cant do that on MP8.
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@Shandlar

That makes sense. By the way, I think I found the post you referred to before:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6794983614#7

When a monster dies, the first thing we do is decide whether it's going to drop loot at all. Most monsters -- like say your everyday shambling zombies -- have a roughly 30% chance to drop loot. The exact percentage, however, varies from monster to monster (for example, the Tormented Stingers in Act III have a much lower chance because they spawn in large packs and are easy to kill). When you kill a monster in Inferno on MP1 or higher, if you pass the initial roll to obtain loot, you will also get a second roll to get an additional piece of loot. The "bonus item" chance for each MP level is detailed here. A few monsters are exempt from the bonus loot, but we tried to put it on the vast majority of normal monsters, and will probably add it to more if we like how the system plays out.Also, just to be clear, the bonus drop applies to Normal monsters only. We wanted Monster Power to provide players with extra loot rolls, and (since Champions and Rares are already guaranteed to drop multiple items) Normal monsters seemed like the best place for us to add that mechanic in.


I'm going to ask on the MF thread on diablofans if anyone did any study on the slot drop chances for normal mobs. I know there was a lot of effort put into determining the slots for elites.
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I read the blog again and it doesnt say that the item will never be a potion/gold.

"In Inferno, in addition to increased experience, Magic Find, and Gold Find, whenever a monster dies and drops an item normally (whether it be gold, a potion, or a piece of gear), the monster also has a chance to drop an additional bonus item. The chance to drop a bonus item will scale up with each MP level as detailed in the table below."

Note that they referred to gear as gear, and items include potions, gold, etc. So I think your assumption isnt correct.


Well regardless of the fact they are poor at semantics and use 'item' and 'loot' in a very impercise fashion, its a certainty that bonus items are all items. That is very easily tested.

MP10 whites will drop only certain matrix's of drops

1. gold + item
2. potion + item
3. tome + item
4. item + item
5. nothing

Other than the 'special' mobs like malechors/golgors and tremors those are the 5 possible drops from white mobs in MP10. There are no gold + gold, tome + tome, potion + potion, gold + potion, gold + tome, or tome + potion. This means that bonus items are always items.
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6893750712#12

At the bottom of that post is where it's said the bonus item is always a piece of gear.
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6893750712#12

At the bottom of that post is where it's said the bonus item is always a piece of gear.


Well in that case Shandlar's math is correct, but you are still going to take 3 x the time to obtain the 3 x better loot, its still a wash in the end, and dont forget that you need to be way overgeared to do this.
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6893750712#12

At the bottom of that post is where it's said the bonus item is always a piece of gear.


Well in that case Shandlar's math is correct, but you are still going to take 3 x the time to obtain the 3 x better loot, its still a wash in the end, and dont forget that you need to be way overgeared to do this.


Yes, but in the case of loot being about equal, it's worth remembering the XP rate. In that case lower MP will give you same loot/hour but much more XP per hour than higher MP. It seems the math at least partially supports switching to higher MP at max paragon, which is a bit of a surprise to me.
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12/29/2012 01:10 PMPosted by TasteDeath
Shandlar, what you are saying makes sense. Going strictly by my own experience, 57 paragon levels with my barb farming only mp7/8 has yielded many decent items that I had no problem selling. One for several hundred million and several for up to 100 million. 69 paragon levels with my wiz farming mp 2 and I have virtually nothing in comparison.


Its probably the economy, nothing sells these days (unless its BIS), game is pretty dead now.

I've gotten items with top rolls on both low and high MPs, it has no effect on item types/rolls, its all RNG.


Economy aside, I was thinking more about he quality of the items dropped. My barb has found a total of 8 Mempos and my wiz has found zero. Same with lacuni, echoing fury, etc. barb has found many of these on mp 8 and wiz hasn't found anywhere near as many on mp 2.
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Of course, I have no actual numbers from testing and this is strictly what I recall off the top of my head.
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still comes down to being able to farm high mp levels in the first place

so that means we're back to square 1, farming low mp levels to accumulate wealth to gear up to farm higher mp levels, it's all connected.
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Economy aside, I was thinking more about he quality of the items dropped. My barb has found a total of 8 Mempos and my wiz has found zero. Same with lacuni, echoing fury, etc. barb has found many of these on mp 8 and wiz hasn't found anywhere near as many on mp 2.


That's just RNG. What legendary drops has nothing to do with MF or MP level (unless you're on Act 1 or 2 at MP0, of course). It might have something to do with what monster you kill, since here might be some loot limitations on a mob to mob basis, but that's just speculation on my part. If you slaughter hordes of scorpions on MP1 and get a legendary, it has the same chance to be a Mempo as if you got the drop from a MP10 pack of scorpions.
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Yeah, loroese, it is totally rng. I am running the exact same farming route with my wiz in act 3 as I did with my barb. It just strikes me as odd that since I started leveling my wiz, I have not found any one item that Is worth mentioning in 69 paragon levels. Perhaps I had a bit of a lucky streak with my barb which had given me a false sense of what gear farming is really like or maybe the extra items+MF at mp 8 vs mp2 is what made the difference. Either way, I am less than impressed with the quality of loot that I have found at mp2 in the last 10k elite kill on my wiz.
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Another way to look at it is that at higher MP you get more loot per xp, so if you level one class to 70 paragon only doing MP8, and another only doing MP2, the MP2 class will get less rares+legendaries (assuming same MF on gear, if any). The upside is it probably took you less time to level to 70 on MP2, if both classes net about the same legendaries per hour. That seems to be about what you're seeing.
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there is definitely luck going on.

last night i did an a3 mp1 loot run with a group and got crap the first 3 runs then 4th run it rained hard for me then 5th run and succeeding none.

did same run this morning, got bt pants

very very random

so random that we can't really pinpoint it and players end up speculating/assuming then arguments ensues.
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redacted

Did real timing
Mp8 156K SNS CM
core, tower, crater 2, rakkis and loop feilds, keeps 2, sky.

Time 34:57

1307 whites
44 elites

zero legs lol (but thats not normal)

now time to do archon same route in mp 1 or 2

Mp 2 225K TP scramble archon
core, tower, crater 2, rakkis and loop feilds, keeps 2, sky.

Time 18:08

1346 whites
46 elites

found a windforce

I have no idea whats best. Rulereric tells me they are same on elite proficiency and better rares with the archon spec/time
Edited by Aimless#1700 on 12/29/2012 9:52 PM PST
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