Diablo® III

I'm really surprised about the 1.0.7 changes.

It seems like Blizzard is actively avoiding nerfs on this patch, or at least avoiding mentioning any, but while the spirit spenders are way too spendy right now I never thought it was the main problem holding monks back. If they want to introduce build diversity they need to buff some generators or nerf Thunderclap, preferably the former.

Thunderclap has the best mobility, the fastest attack speed (and with that the best spirit generation), a nice bit of AoE, stagger, and the highest proc coefficient of all of the spirit generators. This decision should be the starting point for a lot of builds, but instead there's a clear BiS skill rune. We need a retool for Hundred Fists that does cool things to attack speed, or some other mobility options that can compete with Thunderclap's snap teleport.
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Oh to dream, lets hope they can do something about this in 1.07 no doubt they have the data to see the other skills not being used.
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I think the mobility issue is the key, since monks realistically have no other mobility skills. DS works pretty well, but it's got nothing on Leap/Vault/Spirit Walk/Teleport. Still, that's just one of the decisive advantages Thunderclap has over everything else.
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Yeah that (buffing the other generator runes to be competitive with TC) was the change idea I was the most interested in seeing them explore too.

They could even just exaggerate the effects and that would probably work. By that I mean making the width and length of DR wider and longer, the circumference of CW larger, and give WotHF even more hits per attack.

The best idea I think I've had, was raising proc coefficients on WotHF. If they did that, Hands of Lightning could potentially become one of the best generator+rune combinations. Since the damage on it isn't increased, the only improvement I would think would be it's proc coefficient. Because of the latent IAS of the various generators, a proc coefficient per second figure would likely need to be taken into account, which would probably result in a very large increase for WotHF.

As it stands now the proc coefficients on Hands of Lightning are (I believe):

75% | 63%* | 50%

*9% times 7 hits

TC coefficients because of the aoe are really:

150% | 150% | 75%

The generator IAS bonuses are ~112.5% for Hands of Lightning and ~150% for TC. Lets use 2 APS as an example. That gives us EAPS using the two generators of 2.25 and 3. That gives us these proc coefficient per second figures:

HoL:

1.6875 | 1.4175 | 1.125

TC:

4.5 | 4.5 | 2.25

Obviously theres a huge discrepancy here which gives us an easy example of why TC is so powerful atm. Now since I mentioned my idea of HoL's only benefit being an increased proc coefficiency per second, it would have to be increased beyond that of TC's to make it viable. Now imagine if it's coefficient was 3 times higher. It would be a better source of generating Cyclones than TC would be in every stage of a combo.

Anyways....you'll have to excuse my flights of fancy and innocent daydreamings of what could be...
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The big deal with WotHF right now is that it doesn't feel like a flurry of hits. I know whatever changes are made will get crazy proc coefficient stuff under the hood to make it all come out in the wash, but that skill needs to hit like crazy. Maybe if it did it would be a clear winner for Cyclone builds and we'd suddenly have some options.
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You're right though. Calling it Way of the Hundred Fists makes it sound like A LOT OF FISTS lol. If anything, it should have the largest hidden IAS bonus because of how long the animation is right? Thats my reasoning at least.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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I actually wrote a pretty comprehensive post about this exact issue found here:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6607333164

I would honestly be happy with any changes though ... not just the ones I suggested!
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Jeez. Thats gotta be one of the best threads I missed out on before I came back. Thanks a bunch for posting your link :)

The only thing I don't agree with is your proc coefficients. Finding that math (in post #4) that shows a very attainable PC/s (using 2 pAPS as the example) for TC, I think your suggestions might actually not be high enough to make them viable. Closer to 3x (instead of 2x) seems like it might be necessary because TC (or FoT in your suggestion's case) brings more than just high PC to the table as far as utility is concerned.

As far as the effects suggestions and weapon damage changes you propose, everything sounds "fun" as you put it. Thats what this game is all about and adding more of it in any way seems nothing but a good thing.
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I actually wrote a pretty comprehensive post about this exact issue found here:
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6607333164

I would honestly be happy with any changes though ... not just the ones I suggested!


Those are some great ideas! I really like separating the blink from the rune and just giving it to FoT. The more I think about it the more I feel like each generator should have a movement effect in its base skill. One could buff your move speed for a few seconds, one could let you walk through enemies, etc.
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FYI:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7415793376
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Our spirit spenders really need work, though. For example, if I carry Faith in the Light, Fulminating Onslaught, and Beacon of Ytar, using a FitL-aided FO every 24 seconds is worth about 25K real DPS. But my overall real TC/Cyclone DPS is 163K! This means that my supercharged FO is worth a shade over 15%. I might as well use Blazing Wrath, which provides 15% all the time, gives me a 7K heal every 12 seconds (~600 LpS), and provides a lot of extra damage when I'm fighting multiple mobs in a way that FO won't.
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I agree with many of you, at the moment FOT is pretty much what everyone uses.
I personally use DR with keen eye for my HC monk for the increase survivability but its sad seeing many of the other spirit generators fall behind FOT. Way of the hundred fist was awesome at the start for me but its not a real good choice on inferno higher mp levels. the animation just takes so dang long even with fast attack speed.
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Yup, I'm kinda meh about Blizz buffing monks spirit spenders.. I wouldn't get my hope up if this is the direction Blizzard is taking... Ohh well, TC for life, lol
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01/13/2013 08:45 PMPosted by Vrkhyz
Our spirit spenders really need work, though. For example, if I carry Faith in the Light, Fulminating Onslaught, and Beacon of Ytar, using a FitL-aided FO every 24 seconds is worth about 25K real DPS. But my overall real TC/Cyclone DPS is 163K! This means that my supercharged FO is worth a shade over 15%. I might as well use Blazing Wrath, which provides 15% all the time, gives me a 7K heal every 12 seconds (~600 LpS), and provides a lot of extra damage when I'm fighting multiple mobs in a way that FO won't.

Sorry, I forgot to account for FitL's effect on my TC damage. When I activate FitL, I get a 3-second boost to my usual TC damage, plus my typically boosted Cyclone damage. During that time, my real TC/Cyclone DPS is roughly 202K.

Now, let's say that I activate FitL every 2 cycles (24 seconds), activate Fulminating Onslaught, and then resume attacking with Thunderclap. FO will deliver about 606K damage in this situation. But I usually deal 202K damage with Thunderclap and Cyclone during the 3-second window, so FO's only DPS benefit is whatever damage is deals above that number . Therefore:
  • If the animation is exactly 1 second, FO provides a 10% boost to my overall DPS.
  • If the animation is exactly 1.5 seconds, FO provides about an 8% boost to my overall DPS.
  • If the animation is exactly 2.0 seconds, FO provides about a 5% boost to my overall DPS.

You get the idea. At 1.5 seconds, I need every explosion to catch another mob to give me a damage boost comparable to Blazing Wrath. I'm not going to get that against most of the hard-to-handle elites, which means that I should just take Blazing Wrath unless I'm trying to find a better way to clear white mobs.
Edited by Vrkhyz#1472 on 1/14/2013 9:35 AM PST
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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@Vrkhyz

While I agree with your Math (I usually do) I think ignoring the "allocation of damage" factor greatly distorts the value of Blazing Wrath over FO.

Example: Let's say I already overkill 50% of white mobs with each Average Hit.
50% of the time Blazing wrath has 0% effect.

Because I do not cast SSS:FO to kill white mobs, it does not lose effective DPS gain.

Things like this make spirit spenders more efficiently allocate their DPS than paperdoll DPS boosters.

In MP10, your math stands 100% of the time because you don't overkill anything due to life-pools but that isn't how everyone plays.

Just a thought.

-Druin, the happy monk
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Our damage spirit spenders cost too much in relation to the damage they do when you take into account the cookie cutter build that is FoT+TC and SW+Cyclone. The former keeps up and procs the latter, which means the latter's 75 spirit cost is almost not a factor unless you want to use another spirit spender.

Which in this case, disincentives monks to use spirit spenders for damage. And to be honest, if I wanted more damage, I just use my spirit to spam Mantra of Conviction.

And as a former Skorn user, most amusingly, I spent a great deal of gold to stack my IAS to above 45% in order to reach a respectable cyclone and spirit generation rate.

I think the developers know this. The upcoming damage buff to spirit spenders is interesting. But what would be more interesting is if they would lower the resource cost as well to allow a build which can match the cookie cutter build in terms of effective DPS.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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Our damage spirit spenders cost too much in relation to the damage they do when you take into account the cookie cutter build that is FoT+TC and SW+Cyclone. The former keeps up and procs the latter, which means the latter's 75 spirit cost is almost not a factor unless you want to use another spirit spender.

Which in this case, disincentives monks to use spirit spenders for damage. And to be honest, if I wanted more damage, I just use my spirit to spam Mantra of Conviction.

And as a former Skorn user, most amusingly, I spent a great deal of gold to stack my IAS to above 45% in order to reach a respectable cyclone and spirit generation rate.

I think the developers know this. The upcoming damage buff to spirit spenders is interesting. But what would be more interesting is if they would lower the resource cost as well to allow a build which can match the cookie cutter build in terms of effective DPS.


Agree.

I think lower cost > more damage for the most part. This allows you to take advantage of whatever the UTILITY of the skill is more often and not just increase the DPS. Diversity RARELY comes form DPS races because 1 thing always winds. Utility is where it's at!
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@Vrkhyz

While I agree with your Math (I usually do) I think ignoring the "allocation of damage" factor greatly distorts the value of Blazing Wrath over FO.

Example: Let's say I already overkill 50% of white mobs with each Average Hit.
50% of the time Blazing wrath has 0% effect.

Because I do not cast SSS:FO to kill white mobs, it does not lose effective DPS gain.

Things like this make spirit spenders more efficiently allocate their DPS than paperdoll DPS boosters.

In MP10, your math stands 100% of the time because you don't overkill anything due to life-pools but that isn't how everyone plays.

Just a thought.

-Druin, the happy monk

I think I'm following you, but I'm not sure, so I'll talk it out. Are you talking about a TR farming build in which you're killing whites in one shot (or with a tornado follow-up) most of the time? In that case, I can see how Fulminating Onslaught's edge against elites would be the deciding factor for that slot.

Suppose, though, that you're at a particular spot between MP0 and MP1 (the most likely levels) at which your DPS is too much for MP0 but not quite enough for MP1. MP1 mobs have an extra 50% health compared to their MP0 Act 3 counterparts, right? So let's say that your DPS is at 30% overkill, so to speak—basically, you're more than capable of wiping up MP0 mobs, but just not strong enough to kill MP1 mobs in one shot. In that case, Blazing Wrath would essentially allow you to one-shot everything on MP1, right? If so, would the extra MF and GF on MP1 and the ability to one-shot whites all over the map overcome the disadvantage of fighting slower fights against elites? What do you think? Perhaps you could use the same run-away-and-tornado-the-survivors trick to eliminate straggling elites after a few rounds of punches.

Thoughts?
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@Vrk

That's what I understood from what Druin was saying. It makes sense though too your example and his, that basically you have to know your character and how different skills will benefit you, not all pDPS increases are made equal.
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