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I'll start off with my current choice of MainHand (MH) and OffHand(OH).
MH: Calamity (1174 dps @ 1.78 APS)
1.28 Hatred Regen/sec
43% Chance to target enemies with Marked for Death when you hit them
OH: - Dead Man's Legacy
1.22 Hatred Regen/sec
3% CC to Multishot
Combining MH and OH stats:
2.5 Hatred Regen/sec
43% Marked for Death
I went with a 1h setup quite some time ago from a dual socket manti. Even though I initially lost close to 60k dps doing so I was very surprised I killed faster than before due to higher aps and allowing more tankability.
I, myself like the 1 1h xbow + quiver to keep CC as high as possible with my gear and the hatred regen on the calamity + quiver gives me 2.5 hatred/sec in addition to standard hatred regen we have allowing me to use hatred spenders more often.
Many/Most of us use the Archery Passive which automatically gives a 1h user a 10% CC. Together with my quiver I gain a total of 19.5% CC from just these 2 items.
One of the main reasons I went with a quiver over DW is because of what the quiver can offer me. It offers me good dex. It offers me good vit. It offers me higher ASI than running DW and also adds more to my hatred regen.
I went last night and found a nice Danetta spite bow with 1031 DPS, 192 dex, 92+ CD on it and OS and did a comparison on running a DW setup against my current setup.
Swapping out the quiver for the Spite bow (with a 100% CD Gem in the socket) the stats showed I'd gain 3,926.88 dps. In ways this makes sense because I was gaining 192% CD from the spite but was losing 9.5% CC, 107 Dex, 240 vit and 1.22 hatred regen.
Now I don't have this spite bow for real world comparison. I can only give you the calculations the site gave me regarding the numbers. While I gained 3.9k dps swapping out the quiver for another 1h bow I found where I began to suffer was with EHP primarily due to the loss of vit but also loss of dex factors into into the DODGE ehp.
My HP went from 73.7k HP to 60.8k HP (loss of 12,852 or 17%).
My base EHP shows I go from 459.1k to 379k (loss of 80,084.74 or 17%).
My EHP w/dodge shows I would go from 901.6k to 729k (loss of 172,595.25 or 19%).
From my perspective and how my build is, Moving over to a DW scenario does give me little more dps with a decent 1h bow with the added CD but every other stat suffers from this.
I do like my surivivability and do not feel the cost of dps warrants me to change over to a DW for some additional gain in DPS (even it was a 10k increase) to suffer 17%-19% survivability stats.
The other reason I do like the dual combination, eluded to up above with the stats, is the 2.5 hatred/sec. This coupled with the standard regen is great and allows the hatred to refill in quick order when running to the next target.
I like the calamity in particular over the other 1h bows due the MFD it has baked in. If you can get a MFD on a target (such as an elite) you now have an extra 12% Damage to that target. Normally for trash mobs the extra damage may not be that important with the MFD (unless you are playing higher MP Levels). However using the numbers above 12% MFD against a target is way more than 2% dps increase by DW. Even if I were to gain 10k dps as mentioned above that wouldn't even be 5% of my DPS and the baked in MFD from the calamity would still way outperform the DW.
Last reason I prefer the quiver over a 2nd bow are the CC and ASI numbers. In the DW scenario even though my dps grew 2% I lost 9.5% CC and lost 4.5% ASI. if the 4.5% ASI isn't what you would consider critical than we can certainly take that off the table. the 9.5% CC reduction drops me from 59.5% CC to 50.0% CC. with such modest gain on the DPS Side I do not believe the 2% DPS gain would more than offset a 9.5% reduction in CC. The lower your CC and the less Crits you do the harder it becomes for passives like NightStalker to really shine and keep the DISC regen up.
And as a "bonus" to using a calamity bow over other 1h bows is MFD stacks. If your hit triggers the MFD on a target you can also target them with MFD from the skillbar and you now gain 24% more damage on the target. While that is a side-note and/or topic I still felt it was at least noteworthy. Other 1h bows such as spite come I think with +DISC which is very beneficial if you need disc. Danetta revenge bows come with LoH ... and so on and so forth. each bow has strengths and weaknesses.
In the end these are the primary reasons I've chosen the bow and quiver I have. It allows me to perma-gloom while attacking mobs/elites and having that ability to perma-gloom against them allows me to stay planted and go melee on them rather than run and kite effectively letting me kill much faster as there is no downtime in attacking when you don't have to move. :)
Love to hear your stories on why you picked what you did and how it fits your gameplay style.
I went with the Danetta's set, because it suited my play style. From day one I have preferred the dual-wield look and play style. I've also liked to have plenty of discipline and leaned towards the tankier setups that emphasized EHP and LOH. Before Danetta's, I used dual rare bows that had both discipline and LOH. I had discipline in the high 50's and LOH around 1500, and that allowed me to survive easily even with low DPS. Once my EHP was at a comfortable level, it was time to upgrade to legendaries. The Danetta's set was the perfect match for the attributes I value, and with enough EHP I no longer needed discipline and LOH on both bows.
We know that character sheet DPS is not a true measure of our real DPS, since our real DPS depends on skill usage. And we know that most of our DPS comes from our hatred spenders, so true DPS depends on your hatred generation. So to boost my DPS well beyond my paper DPS, I use skill combinations that allow me to spam my hatred spender. That's why I use Suppression Fire and Prep Punishment. It gives me spammable AoE DPS that combines well with MFD Grim Reaper on MP10. But due to the high discipline cost of Punishment, it helps to have at least a couple pieces of discipline gear.
For the longest time i have gone Dual Wield, for its looks and just to be a little unique
It feels wrong to use a one hand bow with a quiver... doesn't that just make it a bow or a crossbow?
From the stats side of things i agree with you analysis, in that DW is no match for Calamity/DML
As far as breaking it down further and analyzing things you've pretty much said what i would.
My original intent was to get a Calamity/Spite but I had some funds tied up in the RMAH so I was a bit short on gold for the Calamity I wanted. Decided to finish off the set and get a Revenge since it was within my budget.
Turns out, the Revenge was better than the DML I had, and I love set bonuses, so I'm using dual Danetta's right now. I bought a test Calamity (no socket, max CD) turned out it had 2300 less dps on paper but in real application it did more damage due to the MFD. I'm probably going to buy one to replace my Revenge but Revenge is working out better than I hoped so I may not.
I used MFD/Grim Reaper and elite fights were just so faceroll, another reason why I might not get Calamity. I don't mind running MFD in that slot because that's usually a DPS skill slot (Manti=RoV, WF=Sentry). Might not be max DPS (2 MFD apps vs 1) but it's one-shot trash/elites either way, and I'm leveling so I'm happy with what I got.
While I don't want this particular thread to simply focus on which 1h bow is best but more of the perks/positives on 1h+quiver or 2-1h xbow setups the calamity is nice in the fact it has MFD and using MFD Skill (such as grim reaper or other runes) it stacks so you can get upwards of 24% extra damage using that particular bow and using MFD on your skills. This is what I do for team-play against ubers. Not only does it help out the team but it also helps boost my dps by another 24% against ubers and elites. :)
and @speedforce while we can have disagreements at times on setups you make a very good point. 1-shot trash/elites either way and that is really the goal.
My question is based on your current gear in looking at the bows you all have running DW. if you wanted to go with the high-end danetta set (maybe you already are running it I don't know as I don't check those bows out often enough) what type of dps gain would you envision getting and for what cost?
As an example I looked at upgrading my calamity a few weeks ago and for about 500m I would pull about another 24k dps. Arguments on both sides as to whether that is cost effective or not. But in any event I know my bow has room for growth as it is only 1174 DPS with 89% CD on it and OS. I know the prices have jumped and it is possible for the same upgrade I may now pay 1b for it. Just curious if you could increase your dps as such and if so I assume it would require upgrades to both bows and what would that costing factor be (not counting what you could sell your current bows for to offset the final cost).
For me Upgrades looked like this
I was using a 1080 80CC O/S calamity with a 920 180 dex 80CC O/S Spite
For roughly 100m with patience i could upgrade spite to roughly 1010 , 190dex, 95CD O/S
This would of been roughly a 7kdps increase
(my unbuffed dps was roughly 135k using the gear you see right now)
My calamity is not substantially upgradable for 100m
For Calamity like yours i would get the same 7k dps increase (talking rough numbers of course)
However as the dps of high end calamity 1250 is soo much higher than the dps of a high end Spite 1050, The spite actually gimps your potential dps, If they allowed spite to roll up to the same damage range as Calamity this would be a different story
From what i understand the Best Calamity+ BestSpite will do less damage than the Best Calamity+Best DML... not to mention the Vitality
Of course the Max Disc on the spite is nice
Not sure if this helped answer your question
Compared to my Danetta's set when I plug your Calamity and DML into D3up.com, it says I would gain 8,117.78 DPS (7%) and 106,856 EHP (18% without dodge, 13% with dodge). I would lose 230 dex (due to the high dex on both bows and the set bonus), but the EHP gain from the vit on the DML more than makes up for it. But I would lose 10 discipline and 888 LOH. If I had the budget, I probably would make that trade-off. But I can't afford it. My Spite was 42M and the Revenge was 27M. How much were your Calamity and DML? I think cost is a major factor in players' gear choices. Everything I own was found or bought from in-game gold. I do not use RMAH or buy gold.
if you wanted to go with the high-end danetta set (maybe you already are running it I don't know as I don't check those bows out often enough) what type of dps gain would you envision getting and for what cost?
I did a sim of a perfect Danetta's set and it is about 22056 DPS boost. I HIGHLY doubt one will ever pop up and if it will, probably beyond 2billion range and that's EACH lol!
Low end Danetta's is 433 avg dmg and high end is 695. Mine is 601, a little over the halfway mark. The cost for a 670 (1072DPS) is 750 million so I think I'm fine where I'm at. I only spent 16 million for my set. The weapon I really want to settle with is a Windforce anyhow.
I checked Diabloprogress, I found a guy that has a Danetta's that's only off by TWO AVG DMG from perfect, 2% CD from perfect, 9 Dex from perfect
Edited by speedforce#1637 on 1/10/2013 2:30 PM PST
if u dont wanna use a calculator app....
eh put calamity bow in place of dml. put any 1h bow in ur main hand, link the danettas u want in chat, go in game open inventory and click link u put in chat of danettas. Will tell u how much of upgrade over the 1h bow. Add that upgrade to get ur dps. is that higher dps than w/ calamity/dml? obv other things to consider but just to get a rough dps +/-
i stick with my DW setup in hopes that one day we'll get the buff we deserve LOL. That and I cant stand the "look" of manticore
I use D3UP website. I add the item and then do a "equip compare" to see how it changes my stats. It isn't necessarily 100% correct but it is fairly close
and your point is well taken. It isn't just about the "highest dps:" persay in this discussion.
However.... when I bought my gear I paid 135m for the DML and 70m for the calamity. so I spent just over 200m for those 2 items. I think the quiver is worth less now (not sure haven't looked) but the same type of calamity I have I think is around the 150m mark as it seems in ways to have gone up in price. Unless I looked at it wrong.
My only beef with dual wield is that, even if you compare all the stats for DW vs 1h quiver and cancel them out, 1h quiver still has two things extra that DW doesn't have.
The 200-300 vit you can get on a DML as well as the skill affix like 14% Hungering Arrow or -5 Cluster. The second one is a really huge disadvantage.
Assuming Calamity DML vs Calamity Spite you get,
(I'm going to assume disc roll on Calamity to match the disc on Spite)
20ias 10crit 200dex 200vit 10disc skill affix VS 15ias 200cd 200dex 10disc
simplify that and you get,
5ias 10crit 200vit skill affix VS 200cd
Whether 200cd is sufficient to offset all those is the main thing, as well as the Spite starting to fall behind once you get into 1200 1300 Calamity range, since it goes to 1100 dps max.
Edited by Myon#1319 on 1/10/2013 8:15 PM PST
have we considered also the lost of average damage if you've switched from spite to DML? basically it's not just the CD that you are losing but more importantly the ave. dmg which is a lot. I estimated around 20K dps lost in switching from around 1050 spite to best DML out there.
I agree however, with the EHP and IAS lost because of DW. Around 50K EHP i suppose.
I think its up to your budget and play style which will determine the outcome.
The 200-300 vit you can get on a DML as well as the skill affix like 14% Hungering Arrow or -5 Cluster. The second one is a really huge disadvantage.Skill affixes can be filled by Stone of Jordan's so the option is still open to a DW user. Of course, a DML user can also take advantage of SOJ's so really what is the benefit?
I see it all as a balancing act. DW is heavy on stat stacking, so for example, you can stack 4 CD affixes which is unique to DW. Since your CD is being filled by your weapons, that leaves your ring/amulet slots to beef up other stats like IAS/CC/Main Stat/AR and so on. Stone of Jordans can be used to fill in skill affix where DML previously filled the role.
Take a look at Archery. Archery gives 50% CD to Crossbow users but it gives 10% CC to Hand Crossbow users. Why is that? Because Quivers can give you 10% and only 1 Crossbow can be equipped so you cannot stack CD like you can a Hand Crossbow. Archery is designed to give you that 50CD boost to compensate.
Now with a Hand Crossbow, since you are equipping two weapons, you cannot have a quiver, so you lost 10CC in that slot. To compensate, Archery gives you 10%CC. As you can see, this skill is designed to balance the weaknesses between having one or the other weapon.
With my Manticore+DML, I have 50%CC (sans rings since I'm using Hellfire/Leorics) and with my dual Danetta's, I have 50% CC. Switching from one setup to the other, I didn't "lose" anything. I retained the 50% CC and I gained more CD as I did not have a dual socket Manticore.
Interesting thing with the dual socket Manticore, because it has CD as a base roll, a socket and a chance for another socket, having a dual socket Manticore can enable you to drop Archery. If you look at the Danetta set, it has 3 sources of CD with possibility of 100% in each of them. Just the same as a Manticore, and that's what makes the Manticore special :D
have we considered also the lost of average damage if you've switched from spite to DML? basically it's not just the CD that you are losing but more importantly the ave. dmg which is a lot.Yes, this is something I had not thought about until you brought it up. Because dual wielding gives you a 15% IAS boost, that should modify the average damage on your second weapon. The calculation is average damage * APS. Overall, the weapons are hitting harder than what it shows on the weapon individually.
Edited by speedforce#1637 on 1/10/2013 11:05 PM PST
Skill affixes can be filled by Stone of Jordan's so the option is still open to a DW user. Of course, a DML user can also take advantage of SOJ's so really what is the benefit?
That's the thing isn't it, if both people use an SoJ and the one running 1h quiver uses the DML as well, you're still short one skill affix, it's the relative amount that matters.
There are some builds where one is enough (Chakram comes to mind, get one -5 affix and that's plenty already), but generally, if you're after a certain skill affix, you want to stack it as much as you can.
have we considered also the lost of average damage if you've switched from spite to DML? basically it's not just the CD that you are losing but more importantly the ave. dmg which is a lot.
I'm not sure I follow this, don't you attack with each weapon seperately? Average damage isn't summed up and applied to your char overall like stats like dex or lifesteal are, so the average damage on the weapon only applies to half your shots, the ones you take with that weapon.
It's what Monsta said higher up, if your Calamity is higher dps than your Spite, you'll be 'diluting' the damage you do because half of your shots will have their damage calculated from the weaker weapon.
Edited by Myon#1319 on 1/11/2013 6:26 AM PST
That's the thing isn't it, if both people use an SoJ and the one running 1h quiver uses the DML as well, you're still short one skill affix, it's the relative amount that matters.It's a balancing act. If you use an SOJ in order to stack more skill affixes then you're losing a ring slot and we're talking 34-50CD, 4.5-6CC, 80-150 Dex, Avg Dmg. With a DW setup, I can afford to lose a ring slot because that CD/CC/Dex is made up by Archery and my additional weapon. Therefore equipping an SOJ is more of a benefit to me than it is a 1H/Quiver user.
If you take a look at my profile, I have 50% CC and my rings don't even have any CC on them (well Leoric's does, but 1% lol)
so I did some sims on D3up. SOJ+Quiver isn't even a benefit until you get a perfect DML which reflects exactly what I said in the other thread. I simmed a perfect DML with 14% Elemental Arrow, as well as a perfect EA SOJ and then changed it to my real DML which has 194 Dex/17 IAS/14% EA and I lost 8000 DPS (206k > 198k)
Switched back to my Revenge paired with the SOJ offered a balanced DPS boost. 177k > 190,000 vs 198,000 SOJ+Quiver.
Overall, what was better than both SOJ setups was just a normal Avg Dmg/Trifecta ring. There's really no point to get an SOJ unless you are getting it for reduced cost of abilities. In which case, I'd rather get it for a Manticore setup than a Calamity setup. Cluster Arrow for example. Even for Impale, it still benefits a 2H moreso than a 1H.
Edited by speedforce#1637 on 1/11/2013 9:29 AM PST
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