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A tragedy I tell you :( a major blow to the 1handed community and DW DH's. Looks like the Manticore is going to define the class even further until blizz decides to buff archery for 1handers and add a greater bonus to dual wielding and sadly I don't see it coming any time soon.
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 1/18/2013 2:10 AM PST
Like what zoid says, the developers might not change this bug, so there is still a chance
check out the potential damage hit some echo furys people are losing
thanks for the info zoid, very interesting.
I know it's not a "nerf", but I do feel bad for those who paid top dollar for EFs and calamities. that said, if you had a top of the line calamity, it will still be top of the line, just display (and probably do) less dps .
this might be the nail in the coffin for 1handers. but it might also be motivation for a dual wielding buff from blizzard
So Calamity with low +min damage will not be greatly affected isn't it?
Mine has a low min and high max, so what is the actual dps ?
Despite the DPS being a display bug, I still prefer calamity over manti, especially when you stack +% elemental damage with inna's belt and soj, and manti is soooo slow.
Edited by fathom#6674 on 1/18/2013 6:27 AM PST
So Calamity with low +min damage will not be greatly affected isn't it?
correct, the cross over is +226/227 minimum damage
Because the max on calamity is 275 preset and low 48
48+226 minimum = 274 still less than 275 so the max is still accurate as 275
once you go over 226 each +min adds effectively (1-1)
it doesn't mean the calamity/echo,etc.. are garbage,
it means that the suspicion many of us had is now confirmed, this is NOT intended, and when/if fixed will have a display list change on many weapons -
Ill try to quickly check some 1h weapons so see the disrepcncy, inlcuding the ed% max to list the worst case scenario for top end items.. this are done very quickly without checking my work
potential +222 to top damage
I suspect the echo is the worst offender to the community as a whole even though it is not numerically, many people will see a dps loss if this is fixed, because it
however I checked the calamity closely is about +90
You can falsely see calamities reach 1074 top end damage range, this is false, the 'real' top end caps at 984 (275+381)*1.5
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/18/2013 7:22 AM PST
potentially, this is Also this is bad news for those with rare 'black damage' Hellion Crossbows since the min-max range is SO close
(413-421) to (498-514)
here is an example
thats a 1601.7DPS bow (1040-1608) 1.21 aps
the base is 415 +278 = 693 * 1.5 = 1039.5 (rounds up to 1040)
the new base max becomes 693+1
add the maximum affix +378 = 1072*1.5 = 1608 <- this is what is listed on the hellion
the max SHOULD BE between 1314-1338
I would not be surprised if blizzard looks at this bug and decide to never touch it bc of the crap feast it might cause, it also means that weapons with REALLY good +min damage rolls are the greatest potential
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/18/2013 7:32 AM PST
Great info... disappointing.. but great info.
Drops my calamity down from 1174.6dps to 1130.2 (loss of 44dps)
Somebody owes me a refund for 44dps I got swindled out of!!!!!!!!!! :)
and for my build .. that 44dps loss on the bow = 7,300 DPS Loss total.
Let 'em fix the problem once and for all.. and to help out beef the MARQUIS ruby to +250min and +250 max dmg. Then I won't care. :)
Edited by BubbaGump#1297 on 1/18/2013 8:03 AM PST
you can also see this issue pop up on rings that list average damage way higher then they seem on the AH - http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7416066285
a 29-58 rings lists "58" average damage
technical clarity on the issue
the X-Y mod is (29-58) this is called
Damage_Bonus_Min#Physical = 29.0
Damage_Delta#Physical = 29.0
29 min with a deltΔ +29 = 58 max, (29-58)
but then there is a bonus mod
the +14 minimum that can also spawn which is called
Damage_Bonus_Min#Physical = 14
the min is now set to 29+14 = 43 with a Δ+29 to make maximum 72
43-72 = avg 57.5 which rounds up on the display to 58 on the AH
I am uncertain how that is calculated/reflected in game DPS; though I am suspicious
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/21/2013 12:11 AM PST
I've seen that issue regarding jewelry. Didn't know if it was the AH calculating it wrong or what. So are you saying when we do a query on jewelry and it shows avg damage much higher than it would normally be calculated the avg damage in the AH is listed "correctly" according to the bugged ring?
I've avoided such rings as there seemed to be something wrong with them and didn't want to buy one that looked like it had a much higher avg dmg rating than what the min-max range would calculate to.
the max on the calamity is a base 275
(275+maximum) * ed%
max should be (275+331) *1.5 = 909
so (490.5+909)*.5 * 1.76aps = 1231.6 dps
the AH is listing things correctly from an in-game DPS stand point IIRC.. I however suspect the issue is the same type of bug
I am not certain if it will be fixed
BonusMin+min = min
BonusMin+min+delta = max
bonusMin is calculated that way into the max (bc max is just min+delta), but i'm not certain if this is a bug... it is certainly a display issue, bc how in the hell does 29-58 = 58
it should probably be listed as
this way a user can see it's like 43-72 = 67.5
if however BonusMin is NOT supposed to effect the min with regard to delta.. it needs to be tracked separately ; in which case you'd have 29-58 +14 min = new X-Y
and should be displayed as 43-58,, and would also means an avg damage drop
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/18/2013 8:32 AM PST
As I said in the other thread (on the General board), a loss in DPS for me would likely end any desire I have to continue playing this game. I don't care if it's a bug, give me an artificial bump somewhere else to compensate for the loss in DPS. IMO the DH is supposed to be a sneaky, fast attacking character similar to a thief/ranger, not a guy running around carrying a howitzer.
Edited by Scuall#1513 on 1/18/2013 8:26 AM PST
Some of you guys are being borderline ridiculous. My calamity based on Zoid's calculation will go from 1327.4 to 1268.4 (if I did the calculation correctly). A huge drop certainly and makes me think twice about switching over to manticore or some other cookie cutter build that Blizzard seems to love to push on us. Did I get mad? Sure at first.
But plugging the numbers into a damage calculator I'm losing only about 10k of base (unbuffed) damage. Maybe if you're under 100k damage or something this is a bigger deal, but when you start going over 200 and 300k and higher....the methods you used to get there makes this damage drop much less of a big deal really. The rest is just ego for "having a weapon over 1300 dps". Don't get caught up in the hype and actually look at your end numbers before freaking out and wasting a bunch of gold on something.
Some would say the 2h bow is the best of both worlds... and others could say it is the worst of both worlds.
Is the glass 1/2 empty or 1/2 full kinda thing.
Glass 1/2 Full:
The 2h bow typically has higher base damage range than a 1h xbow and faster APS than a 2h xbow. It also has a 20% damage increase using arch passive.
Glass 1/2 empty
the 2h bow has lower APS than a 1h xbow and less base damage range than a 2h xbow. Loss of 10% CC from Arch bonus from a 1h xbow or loss of 50 CD from moving away from 2h xbow.
As one can see. you can look at a 2h bow as a very positive or a big negative.
Changing bow "types" is not always as easy as simply swapping one bow for another. Many times we also build gear around that particular weapon. Example could be you are using a 2h manticore and have built up sick amounts of CC/CD and you go move to a calamity. You might need to remove some CD from the gear to put on ASI to shoot faster for the perma-gloom against targets. Vice Versa as well going from a super-high APS and extra +dmg on gear for a calamity build over to a 2h manticore means you probably need to swap some gear to best benefit the 2h calamity and get the most out of it.
No different going to a bow. While the bow may be balanced as compared to calamity and manticore type xbows many times one build is very high aps and another is very high CD. even with moving to a 2h bow can make one need to rebalance their gear which for many of us is not a cheap endeavor.
Least that is kind of how I see it.
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