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Yes. I even use sword/shield with no problem, because I'm scared to dual wield, but single wield requires you maximize crit chance and attack speed for best fury gen so it is fairly expensive.
If you want to WW, especially if dual wielding, with your gear you should take those rubies out and replace them with amethysts. Your amulet needs to have crit chance and vit and/or all res. Focus on survivability above damage. Damage in the 20k-30k range is perfect for WW on mp0, anything higher will kill your enemies before you have a chance to regen fury and make it difficult to sustain WOTB.
Played a lot of WW on my very not-godly Barb. Here's the thing nobody explains about WW/Sprint.
It's just a better than average build without perma-wrath. You can't keep perma-wrath up unless you have 24% run speed, dual-wield with a fast OH, have 40% crit, and a blatant disregard for picking up anything that drops besides a solid legendary. You can't have 24% run speed without Lacuni's/Compass Rose/Inna's Pants- all of those items will essentially be a wasted slot by comparison unless you pay tens of millions of gold for them to have some Vit/AR/etc. Next you, wont hit 40% crit (and 40 is actually on the low side) without running mace/axe + weapons master, ruthlessness, high crit gloves, high crit ammy, crit rings, and maybe a decent crit helm. Running all that will more than likely tank your EHP (300-400k). And yes, you'll probably have a great sustain with your LoH off-hand procing 1000x a second, but that one time you get caught in a bad place and cornered you're going down fast.
So here's my advice.
Forget everything you hear about perma-wrath. You'll never be able to pull it off without amazing gear. Wrath is a panic button only ability (jailer/frozen/two packs pulled at the same time).
Sprint will do a lot of damage, but don't sacrifice overall DPS just so your tornadoes will tick faster- you'll run into lots of situations where elite mobs wont want to stand in any of your tornadoes. Bash and WW damage is also important.
Personally I find very little difference between Sword and Board vs. Dual Wield once Perma-wrath is out of the equation and you manage to hit 35k+ DPS. I recommend shields because they'll give you a ton of EHP and easily get you a nice chunk of crit and much needed stats. The only issue with a shield is you're going to need some Life on Hit from ammy/rings. If you happen to have a great dual wield combination that gives you lots of LoH,Vit and Sockets/Crit Damage that may be a better option for you, but usually that's pretty expensive.
The other thing about WW barbs you have to consider is that half the elite packs in Act 3 don't want to stand in your Tornadoes- they move around a lot, they kite you. Sprint/WW is amazing at clearing trash and elites who want to surround you, but it's flat out annoying to take down those fat, shielding goatmen, goblin shamans, spear throwers and succubus. This is why I prefer higher sheet DPS than a lot of people say you can get away with. You'll need to kill these packs with bash or WW without sprint, and that can be a little painful to do with only 30k DPS.
After that it all comes down to personal preference, you finding what meshes with your playstyle. Personally I love a lot of Life Regen/Inspiring pressence because WW barbs spend a decent amount of time weaving in and out of a fight and it helps you stay healthy during those times you might need to back out and gather yourself or you're WW through molten/firechains/arcane beams. I also like using a mighty weapon with weapons master passive to generate more fury. You don't have to use all the crit passives. You don't have to use a mace/axe main hand. As long as you find a nice balance between EHP, sustain, fury generation, and DPS vs Elites.
I could be wrong here, this is just based on my experience. Most guides you read about online tend to be completely focused on SC where Sprint/WW is a completely different animal. Good luck, it's a still a pretty risky build. Take it slow until you really understand your limits.
Sound advice given out in the post above me. You can get started for not ALOT of millions of Plat (check my spec). The safest is to stick with sword/board whirlwind, but nothing is as fun as dual-wielding in WW I tell you.
To keep it safe make sure that you are stacking up on good AR/LOH/LS where you can get it. Once you get on your feet and start farming and get some decent drops to sell on the AH you can upgrade all of your gear weaps/OH etc. and start stomping you way up the Monster Power.
Edited by Phatboi#1519 on 1/5/2013 10:43 AM PST
What is the minimum attacks per second a ww barb can have? I currently have 1.3 and feel it could be better. I just find it hard to add ias with a shield and axe ww barb because the only real pieces are rings ammy or lacuni. The problem with lacuni is it has low stats and no crit like strong arms unless you spend 30 mil and any ring or army with ias has lower cc or crit dmg and stats unless, once again, you spend a ridiculous amount like 40 mill. Then we have mempos, but that's 60 mill. So does anyone have a suggestion to get ias or what to sacrifice for it within a reasonable price range? Or is my 1.3 enough. I currently have around 59k dps with 48 cc and 300 cd
To survive , your toon has to leech more damage than it sustains.
For softcore , the focus should be on the sustain while hc should focus on the damage mitigation
Sc : this involves stacking enough ehp to not get 2-3 shot
Once you have this minimum requirement , stack the dps modifiers
( crit % dmg ias aps strength ave dmg elemental mods elite%)
Hc : stack ehp / sustain
Get several bare requirements like 12% movespeed 40% crit loh/lifesteal
Then stack Vitality / all resist / strength / life % / life regeneration
Before I reach the requirements I stuck to snb rend builds
I feel 1.80 aps should be the minimum to perpetually generate fury
With sword and board , this is hard to achieve on a budget
It's just a better than average build without perma-wrath
Just better than average? I'll take it.
You can't keep perma-wrath up unless you have 24% run speed, dual-wield with a fast OH, have 40% crit, and a blatant disregard for picking up anything that drops besides a solid legendary.
I respectfully disagree...I feel this is untrue. 24% move speed, yes. 40% crit, yes. Both of those are actually quite easy and inexpensive to achieve. You can pick up everything you want, just be quick about it.
Next you, wont hit 40% crit (and 40 is actually on the low side) without running mace/axe + weapons master, ruthlessness, high crit gloves, high crit ammy, crit rings, and maybe a decent crit helm.
This is untrue. Check my HC barb...I single wield and I do not run any damage/crit passive at all. I do have crit on gloves, ammy, rings, and bracer.
And here is my d3up:
I am by no means saying my gear is great. I know it isn't top of the line gear. But it's functional and I have over 45% crit without any crit passive. It WAS fairly expensive, mainly due to the MF, but I still have all my old MP0 gear and that was dirt cheap.
The best way to achieve this without spending a ton on crit Lacunis is to wear regular bracers with crit chance and spring for a Pride of Cassius belt or a Tyrael's Might armor. Pride of Cassius is dirt cheap and if you're lucky you can get one with life steal or all res, but you'll have to search daily for that. You can always get one with vit.
Running all that will more than likely tank your EHP (300-400k).
Completely untrue. Even when my gear was way worse than it is now, I had 600k EHP and was very safe on MP0. I had around 400 LOH plus a lot of life regen from Inspiring Presence and it was enough. Now, if I had dc'd I probably would have died, but that's true of many builds. I now run MP1 and my life globe pretty much never falls below 90% unless I'm being extremely careless. Some situational awareness is all you need...don't fight wallers with arcane and/or desecration in tight spots, always kill succubi first because of their Blood Star curse, etc.
Personally I find very little difference between Sword and Board vs. Dual Wield once Perma-wrath is out of the equation and you manage to hit 35k+ DPS.
This is mostly true and I'm glad at least someone out there realizes sword/board WW barb is possible. But I disagree about the DPS. If you want to play on MP0, 35k DPS is excessive and you will not be able to regen fury when fighting trash mobs because they die much, much too fast. For MP1, 35k-40k DPS is the sweet spot, and that's where I'm farming for exp and loot now, but I wouldn't rec new barbs to wade out into MP1. Stick to MP0 until plvl 20-30 when your experience starts to slow.
but it's flat out annoying to take down those fat, shielding goatmen, goblin shamans, spear throwers and succubus.
I agree with this, but I prefer Frenzy with Smite to stun them. Eirena is great for her chicken hex, or the Scoundrel with a Buriza to freeze them solid.
I have a lot of experience with WW barbs because I've played 500 hours on one on SC. If I hadn't, I probably wouldn't have attempted one on HC right away, because I think there are complexities to WW that you don't learn right away that will get you killed if you haven't mastered them. For instance, how to aim tornadoes, how to not WW into monsters instead of around them, and above all, how to dump your fury. Spam the heck out of sprint, and if WOTB is running out, stop and frenzy or bash the fattest enemy around (because they usually have the highest defenses so they'll live longer) while hitting your sprint button over and over. If your attack speed/crit chance are good, this will be enough. Also, know where to farm. The Alkaizer run was tailor made for WW barbs, but avoid Keep Depths 2. You want areas with high density of monsters. I usually have no problems sustaining WOTB for 2 minutes in Fields of Slaughter, Arreat Crater Level 2, Rakkis Crossing, and Skycrown Battlements. But I usually avoid popping WOTB unless I need it (for instance, arcane + frozen + jailer is an immediate WOTB for me) and then once I have it I'll work on keeping it up.
Edited by estrellas#1575 on 1/5/2013 6:03 PM PST
I've found that lvling to 60 is a fun challenge as hc barb. I was using Rubies to gem everything. However a few close calls later and I'm doing things a bit different with my ww barb.
Plz feel free to tell me about decent upgrades I might need to get. As of now I can farm all of the acts mp-0, however I have still have close calls in act4 with multiple elite pack pulls.
I'll offer any "advice" I can if asked questions.
It's very possible to hold Wrath with a sword and board and dual-wield. Not sure why people think it's next to impossible -- it's quite easy in fact. The problem is the density. At some point, you're going to have to choose a route.
Here's my set-up at the moment: http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/acrimony-1561/Acrimonious/30465951
I have gone from paragon 15 on February 10th to 56 tonight. I would have dinged 57, but alas, bad weather and reports of power outages in the area means I need to stop now.
Anyway, for those wondering, I took a look at some of the more common set-ups in Hardcore for WW Barbarians. One of them is grabbing a 'fast' main hand like an increased attacked speed mace or axe and throw on a life-steal Echoing Fury in the offhand. The other is grabbing a similar main-hand and a shield with critical hit chance. Those the two most common set-ups you will see in Hardcore.
However, I wish to make a very important distinction that will hopefully help others with their gearing decisions. Here's a link to D3Rawr with my set-up: http://www.d3rawr.com/d-7tn43 (I used an Echoing Fury I have in stash for a rainy day).
Set 1 vs. Set 2 is Sword and Board vs. Dual Wield
Sword and Board gives me a measure of true damage per second at 514,623 fully buffed at 23 ticks per life of a tornado. True damage per second as most know is a measurement of your total damage per one casting of RLTW and the WW cycle that follows through. I 'leech' roughly 6,303 life per second, not including my life-regeneration per second (which is roughly 1,000) or life-per-fury spent (which can be up to 1,000 per second). Conversely, Dual-Wielding gives me a true damage per second measurement of 567,333 fully buffed at 30/26 ticks per one casting of a tornado's life. I leech back roughly 10,689 life per second, not including my life-regeneration or life-per-fury spent.
On the surface, 'efficiency' goes to Dual-Wielding based on the numbers above. You're leeching more, doing more damage, and your attacks are much faster, meaning you generate more fury. However, comparing the EHP, we see that Sword and Board has 1,356,700 to Dual-Wielding's 974,453 -- a difference of 382,247. Similarly, the BES (Battle Efficiency Score -- a measure of doing and taking damage for maximum efficiency without difficulties) favours the Sword & Board set-up as well -- 4,652,267 to 4,159,703.
In the last paragraph, the differences in survivability is a chasm. Not only are you mitigating less damage, you're not doing enough damage to give up the huge amounts of EHP and battle efficiency. Let's assume you get disconnected in the middle of the Fields of Slaughter. Which Barbarian is most likely to survive? It's that distinction I have to make, including dealing with reflect damage packs, health links, and burst damage (molten and plague as well), that puts the onus on the player to overgear rather than go out and maximise his gear efficiency.
It should be noted that I am also using a Blade of the Warlord. I chose the MIghty Weapon for several reasons. One, I wanted to generate as much fury as possible to maintain 100% WOTB up-time. Two, I wanted to find another way to incorporate leech into my build (I have four methods). Three, the Mighty Weapon not only generates fury, it provides you with an ability to build a huge amount of resource in moments when you're experiencing a fury drain in the worst possible situations you can find yourself in. The Blade of the Warlord is the quintessential Mighty Weapon -- though I may go back to a rare Mighty Weapon if I can get my damage up to the point where using a Cold Damage Stone of Jordan becomes beneficial to me.
In regards to taking on Occultists and Goatmen above, I recommend using your tornadoes and not whirling towards them when they run away. Always go to the one that's closest to your destination and allow the other two to come towards you. Secondly, use Bash and dump fury simultaneously to maintain up-time or reset the WOTB timer. Thirdly, use whirlwind sparingly until you have enough experience (or feel comfortable) spinning in a very tight circle. Fourthly, if there's enough density, use that to generate and fill the area with tornadoes and your whirlwind attacks.
Hope that helps.
Ace, what are you talking about, with under 20mil in gear you can make a decent 50-60k DPS WW Barb with 500k ehp. It is viable build and fast to farm and lvl at MP0. The most expensive item are the boots, everything that has 12% MS is wicked expensive. Good thing is IK boots are cheaper than 1 month ago and down to 20-25mil if you're patient, to start you can go with boots with no AR and compensate somewhere else.
I've been thru 4-5 WW barbs over the last few months, most died to glitches, D/C and my own negligenceI, 've found that 40k hp, 50k dps and 400AR is enough to sustain MP0 and cruise thru it quickly. I've seen some rubber banding, but if you stay out of Keeps 2 until you get more ehp you're fine. I lost 2 barbs to rubber banding into Fallen maniacs, so I play safe in Keeps 2 now.
500k ehp? Maybe good for farming hell and if you are lucky, a1 inferno at MP0. I can easily lose 1/5th of my 2.5m+ ehp in half a second when fighting a3 MP0 elites. I am not interested in any build that takes me below 2m ehp because I have seen how much damage I take.
SC barbs do hundreds of MP0 Alkaizer runs at 500k EHP without dying. That doesn't mean 500k EHP is rational for a conservative HC player, but it does mean 500k EHP is viable if you know the WW build and you avoid the lag monster. A WW barb never takes 500k damage in half a second at MP0... it just doesn't happen.
Im running a WW barb with 1.6m EHP. I us the sword+bord setup, stormsheild just provides such HUGE defensive bonus not only the armor + AR + block, but you get the -7% dmg from elites AND -5% from Meele attacks, this is a HUGE thing, ive tested using dual weild vs the sheild, and yeah my dps goes up to like 70k, but my HP is more spiky and i just dont like that, i am building towards having enough AR and Armor + regen to drop the sheild eventually, but im a ways off from that, 1st i need a mempo then the IK boots to replace the helm for the IK set bonus, then i need a godly axe with life steal Crit dmg + open socket and preferably alot of Str. Only then will i dual weild, after my defences can match the sheild, even then i may be skeptical haha. Having the blackthorns pants + amulet may be something to aim for as well, but i doubt i can get a better blackthorns than a crafted 200+ str ammy.
No offense intended, but that's pretty bad. I know you're all about ehp on HC and everything, but if you're going for ehp and still getting torn up in mp 0 then you are clearly doing something wrong. Before I switched over from rend to ww my records indicate i was sitting somewhere around 1.8m ehp and my life would barely budge in mp0. One of the things i still to this day love about the rend build is you can join a public game with 3x other players and jump into a sea of arcane and be ok with it while others run away. I'm not sure how you're taking so much damage, but clearly that tells me just having a high ehp value by itself doesn't say much.
The best advice for ww barbs that i've seen was from a blue months back who said it doesn't matter how much damage we make the monsters do if a player can regain to full life in less than a second. That said, as a ww barb, if you play it smart and know your limit (don't go to places where you can be one-shot until you get better gear) you should be able to keep your life at full constantly from your lifesteal. When my dps was on the low side i compensated by using sever as an offhand. That pretty much puts you at full life everytime you kill an enemy with lifesteal.
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