Diablo® III

Remove NV from existance

There are 2 main "problems" that NV addresses as i see it.

- Skills, punishment for changing them.
- To prevent players from playing quick sessions

I want to address both here.

Skills:

Honestly, who cares if someone pulls a 30 sec cooldown skill change, or a tp to town to change a skill (consider you have to avoid hits for this). I already think this is sufficient punishment, and why not use the skill system of D3 in a dynamic way?

Do you really think someone who changes skills rapidly can farm like that for eternities? that they can outfarm the reward of making a strong all around build so you dont have to change skills and can keep going, perpetual mode?

If someone can keep doing that all day, then let them! They are clearly enjoying that play style if they do not get tired and outfarmed by one who just keeps going with the same build.
You have to be thoroughly deranged / hardcore to play like that, and if you are, why not be rewarded in the game for it, reach out to those players?

Have you ever considered how little real difference it actually makes versus how limiting a game feature it is?

Preventing quick farming sessions:

From a player perspective, i do not see the greater issue with this, and given the past, i think many diablo players found great joy in farming the same in at a quick rate. The only real argument i could see was your servers running too many games, and i doubt that is why.

You have already made sure bosses are worth skipping, and that monsters themselves are what you are hunting. NV in this sense, only serves to shorten games to the point that you can abuse areas that are much greater than others.

Just remove NV and properly balance your areas. This does not mean that all your areas have to give you even average rewards, so that no one are great. It could mean for example that good areas are found deep in other areas, far from a waypoint, and that you cannot get saved to spawn in those areas upon entering the game (Assasins vault for example).

What is to gain from removing Nephalem Valor?

Players are encouraged to use the dynamic skill system of Diablo 3, and they are no longer punished for playing around with any builds or alteration of skills they think of while farming. Right now, i think many players are almost scared of changing a skill to break their efficiency, and because of that they will keep playing the cookie cutter over and over again.

You can now make quick farming games if this is what you prefer. No more deciding what the player thinks is most fun.

Gain in quality playing time. Each stacking of NV feels like wasted time, and it feels like the farming begins after it. It makes the playing experience worse in my opinion, and we would be better off without it.

No more lost stacks on disconnect in solo games.

You will no longer feel forced to stay in public games with players you dont like, in order to optimize your stacks.

I have heard reports of people who for irl reasons have to take longer breaks frequently, and when NV falls off it is very annoying. No more.

The list goes on, more for example here: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004017081

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Nocturnal's Master Thread of Ideas
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7200302965
Edited by Nocturnal#2168 on 1/10/2013 10:14 PM PST
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Waah waah waah, I don't like a system that improves the insanely broken system that is D3 grinding! Why should I play for hours with a bonus when it takes an OH SO LONG FIVE KILLS to hit that bonus? OH EM GEE I HAVE HUNDREDS OF HOURS TO PLAY DON'T NEED ANY BUFFS THANK YOU BLIZZ!!!

How about: Each elite/rare group/resplendent/side quest gives 1% MF/GF/XP, no cap, no act resets until log off?

That NV-5 amount is almost inconsequential when compared to a high Paragon + high MP. What does anyone have to gain from a LOWER MF? Nothing but a longer play time. I'm sorry you feel that we should have to devote HUNDREDS OF HOURS across a single character to invalidate the SLIGHT gain over time form NV?

01/09/2013 01:15 AMPosted by Nocturnal
Each stacking of NV feels like wasted time, and it feels like the farming begins after it. It makes the p


I'm sorry that you feel that 10-15 minutes to hit NV 5 is wasted time. Explain to me how NOT having that boost ISN'T wasted time over hundreds of hours of play.
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How about: Each elite/rare group/resplendent/side quest gives 1% MF/GF/XP, no cap, no act resets until log off?


I considered it in another form, i thought of NV without resets of any kind, and then i just realized it was garbage either way. Plain and simply a bad system that should never have existed.

That NV-5 amount is almost inconsequential when compared to a high Paragon + high MP. What does anyone have to gain from a LOWER MF? Nothing but a longer play time. I'm sorry you feel that we should have to devote HUNDREDS OF HOURS across a single character to invalidate the SLIGHT gain over time form NV?

..

I'm sorry that you feel that 10-15 minutes to hit NV 5 is wasted time. Explain to me how NOT having that boost ISN'T wasted time over hundreds of hours of play.


Lower mf is only as you percieve it when you forget the greater picture. They know how they want their drops to be for the average player, and if they remove the MF gain from NV, they will increase the drop rates to adjust to the exact same levels.

Flawed arguments, you bring.
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I have to say I agree Nocturnal.

Japhasca, one thing you're ignoring in your post, is that having 5 NV stacks affects drops beyond merely the increase in MF and GF, therefore validating Nocturnals second point that the current system discourages micro-farming sessions (which were a strong highlight from Diablo II).
Edited by Hawkeye#1335 on 1/9/2013 1:52 AM PST
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NV stacks make act 3 the only viable place to farm. Its not as if the MF it gives is of much use the extra drop slot has a greater impact. Just give us the extra slot as standard and dump NV or just use it for key wardens and Ubers. It creates more problems than it solves IMO
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01/09/2013 01:34 AMPosted by Nocturnal
They know how they want their drops to be for the average player, and if they remove the MF gain from NV, they will increase the drop rates to adjust to the exact same levels.


Will they? Unlikely. They haven't agreed to fix bad stat ranges, they haven't agreed to fix improper statting on yellows and legendaries. I got a Natalya's Embrace tonight with 92 DEX and 100ish INT tonight. Is that appropriate for a 60 DH set piece? No, it isn't, by far.

Throwing more and more crap at a player, hoping something will stick, is the ENTIRE concept behind D3's high-level gearing. NO SYSTEM YET INTRODUCED creates BETTER loot; ALL create just MORE LOOT.

NOTHING can be gained by removing the MF from NV. If a system was put in place to ensure better stat rolls, I would be on board. As it is, all the systems in place guarantee nothing more than more gear, not better gear. Unless some system is put in place that ensures BETTER gear, removing the MF from NV just gives us less yellows and legendaries that HAVE A CHANCE to roll good stats.

If you have no suggestions to ensure quality gear, than any change that decreases CHANCE for quality gear is detrimental to the experience of play.

Troll harder, my friend.
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Remove NV to change skills = no NV
Keep NV and change skills = lose NV

Either way you have no NV? The only people who would lose out are those who stick to a skillset

In my experience (and many others too) i've found as many lego/set items without 5nv as I have with 5nv. So that kinda derps your "Prevents quick farming sessions"

To sum up, if you don't mind having NV removed from the game (gain no NV whatsoever) why are you so bent out of shape about losing it to change skills? Maybe you just want the guaranteed rares to drop from your first elite onward in every game you play..?
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01/09/2013 01:51 AMPosted by Japhasca
Will they? Unlikely.


Yes they will, and you know why? Because they have adjusted the rate to the current, just enough to keep players content, and when they dip below it they will have to boost it again as players are no longer in equilibrium. This is if they know what they are doing, maybe they are still learning.

And i speak not of removing MF from NV, i speak of removing NV entirely and through that the MF from it.

In my experience (and many others too) i've found as many lego/set items without 5nv as I have with 5nv. So that kinda derps your "Prevents quick farming sessions"


This is the official blizzard standpoint, which is why i bring it up because i want to defeat its purpose.

I know i am in fanboy region with this topic, and many feel the need to insult and get personal as soon as you touch on it, defending it like it was them who came up with it. Ever heard of the stockholm syndrome?
Edited by Nocturnal#2168 on 1/9/2013 9:47 AM PST
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I would be completely in favour of removing NV and incorporating it's benefits into the base play.

This would allow for shorter gaming sessions, and that is a good thing.
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NV should be a global buff that lasts from game to game. I don't see why it should be reset from every single game. It would make people want to play more since the buff doesn't go away, and it wouldn't affect the game too much except remove the hassle of having to get 5 stacks before you do anything you actually want to do.
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NV should be a global buff that lasts from game to game. I don't see why it should be reset from every single game. It would make people want to play more since the buff doesn't go away, and it wouldn't affect the game too much except remove the hassle of having to get 5 stacks before you do anything you actually want to do.


I feel you, and in this case, why not remove it altogether?

What does it actually do for your game? It makes you feel you have wasted time getting 5 stacks.
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I like the idea of NV removal. Changing a single skill or passive shouldn't punish you. The game's skill system was created in a loadout style fashion similar to FPS games so in the same vein, changing skills should be a part of the game.

As for the MF/GF/exp bonuses, it should be a global buff that also scales up as you enable higher MP. For example, in MP0, the buff would read Magic Find +75%/Gold Find +75%/XP +75% and in MP1 it would read Magic Find +100%/Gold Find +100%/XP +85%

Concerning the guaranteed rare, to account for not having to stack NV anymore, change it to a % chance that increases as you kill more elites. Make it +20% chance per elite kill up to 100% chance @5 elite kills.

When leveling paragon, often times the most problematic issue in efficiency is that we have to stack NVx5 before we can utilize the most efficient zones. That's just a waste of time. Let us go directly into the most efficient zones so we can save more time and level faster. Keep in mind that Levels 1-60 are already like this so there is no reason why paragon leveling shouldn't be like it either.
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-1

I'm fine with skill change not having an impact on NV.

I'm completely against the idea of promoting quick runs as much as possible.
We get enough constant complaints about Alk runs to promote people only playing a 1-2 minute portion of the game thousands of times.
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An army of D2 players would disagree with you.

The problem with that thinking is you pay no care to those who want different than you, but are quick to limit their choices which in essence means you think you are better.

I am not saying it should only be quick runs that are worthwhile, in fact i probably would still run rather large runs as i enjoy that the most, i mention quick runs because that is the main reason NV exists till this day.
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There are 2 main "problems" that NV addresses as i see it.

- Skills, punishment for changing them.
- To prevent players from playing quick sessions


Dude, 100% of the player bases ideal run only takes 10-20 minutes max. Now that is pretty quick for a session, and I don't find myself wanting change skills much in my short runs.

Of course if you're under geared it may not be this case, but a fast run is what you are playing to get to.
Edited by Killxswitch#1392 on 1/9/2013 4:58 AM PST
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-1

I'm fine with skill change not having an impact on NV.

I'm completely against the idea of promoting quick runs as much as possible.
We get enough constant complaints about Alk runs to promote people only playing a 1-2 minute portion of the game thousands of times.
You misunderstand. Efficiency does not mean quick runs. The point about my post is that by getting rid of NV stacking, you can go straight into the most efficient zones which means you can add more areas to your run where before, you wouldn't be able to because it hurt your XP/hr.

Instead of doing the following run:

Core of Arreat
Tower of the Damned
Arreat Crater Lv2
Bridge of Korsikk
Keep Depths Lv2

you can do

Tower of the Damned
Tower of the Cursed
Arreat Crater Lv2
Rakkis Crossing > Bridge of Korsikk
Keep Depths Lv2

and if you want, you can add Skycrown Battlements > Stonefort to get the most out of 1 run.

The way I do runs right now, is

Core of Arreat
The Battlefields (if 3x Elites in Core, proceed to KD Lv3 instead)
Tower of the Damned
Tower of the Cursed
Arreat Crater Lv2
Bridge of Korsikk
Keep Depths Lv2
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I'll trade you NV for permanent character choices.
Deal?
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01/09/2013 01:15 AMPosted by Nocturnal
Players are encouraged to use the dynamic skill system of Diablo 3, and they are no longer punished for playing around with any builds or alteration of skills they think of while farming. Right now, i think many players are almost scared of changing a skill to break their efficiency, and because of that they will keep playing the cookie cutter over and over again.


Here's where you lose me. I was really listening up to about here...

Yes, you're right, players are encouraged to use the dynamic skill system of Diablo 3 to experiment and try new things and see what works best for THEM. However, here's the thing...

By the time you hit level 60, you've done two things...1) you've become familiar with the game's story arc, quest line and beginning to end flow. So you have a pretty good idea of what dangers you'll face, what bosses can do, and what problems your skill build needs to accommodate. 2) You've unlocked access to all the skills and runes your class is going to have available, and thus, you should also have a good idea of what works with what.

Not saying that ALL your experimenting will happen ONLY between levels 1-60, and Paragon leveling 1-100 will involve the same nine skill choices, absolutely not, there will surely be changes a player wants to make after they hit Skill Level 60 (as I call it). However, in order to keep ANY semblance of commitment to a particular build, the NV system is perfect.

Diablo 2 FORCED you to stick with your skill point choices, and total through a character's journey, they have a maximum of three chances to respec their points, and that's IF they make it to Hell difficulty. If they're having major trouble with Normal, they get one chance, and if that doesn't fix things, they gotta start over. Diablo 3 lets people choose whatever skills they want whenever they want, and like you said, it limits people during a run...but...why can't people just wait till the run is over? I do it all the time.

I send a character out to grind or farm or both, I get my five stacks, and when I'm done with the game I'm in, I start a new one, change my skills around and see how it works. If it's really a problem, I sacrifice only a stack or two.

Basically, aside from side quest things like Key Farming, that REQUIRE five stacks, this system should be seen simply as a bonus. You're TEMPORARILY giving up your freedom to switch out skills for optimal encounters and moments for additional MF, GF and XP. Different skills are definitely better suited for different situations, and giving up that freedom and sticking to one play style temporarily should offer you a bonus, as it may end up making battle slightly harder especially, like you said, if you discover a change you'd like to make to your build mid-skirmish.

TLDR: The Nephalem Valor system is NOT NOT NOT trying to say to players "don't switch skills! look how much better it is NOT switching your skills." It's trying to say, "you're making the game harder for yourself by not switching your skills every eight steps, here's a bonus."
Edited by CardinalMDM#1269 on 1/9/2013 6:22 AM PST
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NV is the best improvement by far, your ideas are all bad.
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