Diablo® III

Remove NV from existance

Letting people change skills would just result much of the time in: (in a group setting) your playing de de de and boom hit an elite pack. *one by one each person town portals to change there skills/buffs to what ever the currently trendy streaming player uses or what their 1337 friend said is the best* finally that idiot parade ends and you kill the pack. oh god more TPing to change back. Next elite pack with different affix's...you begin to want to bash your head against something hard as the whole mind numbing repetitive process starts over.

I was going to ask if you thought much about your view of these "issues" , but then I was reminded of the WALL of formatted text I had to skim and I came to the conclusion that you are really not very smart or were intoxicated on bath salts when you wrote this.
Edited by T1geR#1525 on 1/9/2013 6:34 AM PST
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retards need no responses.
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Just call NV what it really is. A band-aid on the problem of not being forced to choose your skills as you level up and then living with them or re-rolling a new toon to do it better next time.

If this is how the game was designed in the first place (you know... like an actual ARPG)... then NV would actually be pointless as far as punishments go.

As it stands... it's acceptable to me. I generally don't change my skills all that often, and if I'm going to, I do it between sessions... when I don't have to worry about losing any stacks.
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Posts: 5,377
I would disagree here and say NV is a good thing.

Bach in the earlier days of Diablo 3 everyone wanted a say where you would be rewarded for playing a run through with no skill swapping. And NV was the result. And I think it's a good result. It still allows skill experimentation, but if you want NV you have to experiment for a whole run with the same skill setup. And to that is the only way you will know if a skill setup works or not. You should not give up on a skill setup when it becomes hard, think a little and work out how to get the best out of it and that setup might be better then you ever thought.

Next point. 1-2 hours is a farm of any act at a reasonable MP. That's pretty quick. Even casuals have that kind of time. WoW on the other hand is very not casual friendly. D3 on the other hand is.

So I will say people asked for this, and got NV as the answer. And it works well. ANd promotes getting better with a chosen skillset over choosing every 2 seconds a different one. I say well done Blizzard on it.
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This :

TLDR: The Nephalem Valor system is NOT NOT NOT trying to say to players "don't switch skills! look how much better it is NOT switching your skills." It's trying to say, "you're making the game harder for yourself by not switching your skills every eight steps, here's a bonus."

There isn't anything wrong with the current system. If you want to change skills, change them and wait 2 min for the NV bonus to be set again.

There are bigger fish to fry in this game, let them sort those out first.
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See there is one thing you're forgetting. Nephalem Valor is completely optional and in most cases you pick up stacks along the way to hit up a boss/area. Needless to say, I honestly doubt a majority of the player base at 60+ are inclined to switch up their build constantly throughout a session. My guess would be that if a player is messing around and trying out new loadouts, which then the NV is irrelevant.
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NV was one of the biggest steps AWAY from D2 besides the Loot becoming stat stackers. They WILL NOT ever get rid of it. Multiple CM posts about it, including some words from JW himself. They specifically created NV so that people would HAVE to do something other than go on micro-boss runs for loot. JW didn't think it was "fun", hence, now you have to kill 5 elites to get the MF/Exp bonus...Every developmental decision about how people play this game was based around NV and the need for it if you wanted to level your char/farm the most efficiently.

If you are incapable of getting 5 NV in under 10min in any act of this game (besides A4, which is just hideous all around) you're doing something wrong. Either too high MP, or you just have absolutely no idea where elites are in each act.

While the skill switching cancellation is a nuisance, that's all it really is. No solidly built char has ANY need to switch up skills in the middle of a run. The only valid argument I can possibly think of is if you get your 5 stacks and then want to do ubers and need some defensive skill over an offensive one you used to shred elites...but really that speaks less to the situation than a lack of good gear.

NV isn't going anywhere, and it is far from the biggest problem in this game.
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I'm sorry that you feel that 10-15 minutes to hit NV 5 is wasted time. Explain to me how NOT having that boost ISN'T wasted time over hundreds of hours of play.


Actually in act 3 it should only take 2-3 minutes to hit a 5 stack.

1 alka seltzer run shoud only take 8-11 minutes.

(P.S. yes I ment to spell the run as alka seltzer)
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Looks like at least some people remembered the reason for NV's existence in the first place.

It's a privilege, not a right.
Edited by Wtflag#1258 on 1/9/2013 7:09 AM PST
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Where shall we start.

This is an explosive topic i knew i would get flamed for touching, but this is my role.

Players are encouraged to use the dynamic skill system of Diablo 3, and they are no longer punished for playing around with any builds or alteration of skills they think of while farming. Right now, i think many players are almost scared of changing a skill to break their efficiency, and because of that they will keep playing the cookie cutter over and over again.


Here's where you lose me. I was really listening up to about here...

Yes, you're right, players are encouraged to use the dynamic skill system of Diablo 3 to experiment and try new things and see what works best for THEM. However, here's the thing...

By the time you hit level 60, you've done two things...1) you've become familiar with the game's story arc, quest line and beginning to end flow. So you have a pretty good idea of what dangers you'll face, what bosses can do, and what problems your skill build needs to accommodate. 2) You've unlocked access to all the skills and runes your class is going to have available, and thus, you should also have a good idea of what works with what.

Not saying that ALL your experimenting will happen ONLY between levels 1-60, and Paragon leveling 1-100 will involve the same nine skill choices, absolutely not, there will surely be changes a player wants to make after they hit Skill Level 60 (as I call it). However, in order to keep ANY semblance of commitment to a particular build, the NV system is perfect.

Diablo 2 FORCED you to stick with your skill point choices, and total through a character's journey, they have a maximum of three chances to respec their points, and that's IF they make it to Hell difficulty. If they're having major trouble with Normal, they get one chance, and if that doesn't fix things, they gotta start over. Diablo 3 lets people choose whatever skills they want whenever they want, and like you said, it limits people during a run...but...why can't people just wait till the run is over? I do it all the time.

I send a character out to grind or farm or both, I get my five stacks, and when I'm done with the game I'm in, I start a new one, change my skills around and see how it works. If it's really a problem, I sacrifice only a stack or two.

Basically, aside from side quest things like Key Farming, that REQUIRE five stacks, this system should be seen simply as a bonus. You're TEMPORARILY giving up your freedom to switch out skills for optimal encounters and moments for additional MF, GF and XP. Different skills are definitely better suited for different situations, and giving up that freedom and sticking to one play style temporarily should offer you a bonus, as it may end up making battle slightly harder especially, like you said, if you discover a change you'd like to make to your build mid-skirmish.

TLDR: The Nephalem Valor system is NOT NOT NOT trying to say to players "don't switch skills! look how much better it is NOT switching your skills." It's trying to say, "you're making the game harder for yourself by not switching your skills every eight steps, here's a bonus."


I understand that you can manage the system, and that you are fine changing skills afterwards. I can tell you what many players do all day long in D3 however, and it is this;

Go to their standard farming place, and begin farming with the cookie cutter specc. They never change it so as not to break their NV, and they keep going like this. It is an evil circle of dark repetition.

Both you and me do that to some degree as well, it influences our play and prevents us from trying out the skill when the idea comes to mind, because we do not want to ruin the farm.

I dont see the point, i understand you can get along with NV, so can i, but why does that warrent an annoyance in the first place?

I dont think anyone even comes close to mastery of their class when they are 60, that is a process that never ends, and the main body of it happens at 60.

You have one point however, that it is the only resemblence to a fixed build, as others also write here. We must come to terms with characters being absolutely none-unique in D3. They are all the same. I do not like this, but non-permanent skills is something that will 99.9% likely not be changed ever in D3.

I am a realist at times, i look at the game i have and what improvements can be made, and i do not see any point in superficial nostalgia trips of "locked" builds, if they prevent me from using this new skill system to its fullest. The skill argument was not meant to be overpowering, in fact nothing here is meant to take up a lot of mental space, and quite simple NV could be removed and everyone would live happily and merrily and never again have to get 5 stacks before the real farming begins.

To think of this as a bonus is plain and simply textbook misconception of relative levels. If they remove this they will boost standard drops to current levels (at least if they know what they are doing, to keep players content with drops (equilibrium point)). This is an intended nerf of quick games and skill changes. There have been official posts on this. This is not an intended boost, it is intended to give you below the normal drop rate until you have 5 stacks, not the other way around.
Edited by Nocturnal#2168 on 1/9/2013 7:40 AM PST
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Just call NV what it really is. A band-aid on the problem of not being forced to choose your skills as you level up and then living with them or re-rolling a new toon to do it better next time.

If this is how the game was designed in the first place (you know... like an actual ARPG)... then NV would actually be pointless as far as punishments go.

As it stands... it's acceptable to me. I generally don't change my skills all that often, and if I'm going to, I do it between sessions... when I don't have to worry about losing any stacks.


So you are saying, i can live with it because its not often i suffer this penalty. Wouldnt it be nicer never to suffer it?

I would disagree here and say NV is a good thing.

Bach in the earlier days of Diablo 3 everyone wanted a say where you would be rewarded for playing a run through with no skill swapping. And NV was the result. And I think it's a good result. It still allows skill experimentation, but if you want NV you have to experiment for a whole run with the same skill setup. And to that is the only way you will know if a skill setup works or not. You should not give up on a skill setup when it becomes hard, think a little and work out how to get the best out of it and that setup might be better then you ever thought.

Next point. 1-2 hours is a farm of any act at a reasonable MP. That's pretty quick. Even casuals have that kind of time. WoW on the other hand is very not casual friendly. D3 on the other hand is.

So I will say people asked for this, and got NV as the answer. And it works well. ANd promotes getting better with a chosen skillset over choosing every 2 seconds a different one. I say well done Blizzard on it.


It benefits nobody, only some believe it does because they do not see that it is in fact a nerf to quick games and skill changes.

There is no reason to punish me for changing my skills if i so desire. If i do it in combat it will take me a full 30 seconds before i can use it. If i try to tp it will take a while because i need to avoid getting hit. Hardly abuseable for farming efficiency or other advantages if we have to be realistic. Also, you cannot swap until cooldown is up, so what are you gonna abuse exactly? Progression? People do it anyway because they need the progression not the loot.

It does not change the issue that there is no need to slap players for playing around with skills. It would appear to be counterintuitive to this new skill system.

NV was one of the biggest steps AWAY from D2 besides the Loot becoming stat stackers. They WILL NOT ever get rid of it. Multiple CM posts about it, including some words from JW himself. They specifically created NV so that people would HAVE to do something other than go on micro-boss runs for loot. JW didn't think it was "fun", hence, now you have to kill 5 elites to get the MF/Exp bonus...Every developmental decision about how people play this game was based around NV and the need for it if you wanted to level your char/farm the most efficiently.


I am aware, but unlike the skill system i have not given up on reason for this system.

They would like to think it a central pillar, but is it not. It is paper mache and does not support the core Diablo game. On paper the idea is great, in play i come to realize that is is inessential to Diablo and the gameplay. It serves only to limit in ways that i do not see why you should be limited as written in the post.

EDIT: Also, someone wrote it was completely optional. Hahaha, it is incredible how easy it is to make people believe it is a boost. Same as the priviledge not a right comment, if you are realistic you will know that anyone will seek the fullest farm benefit, anything else is foolish.
Edited by Nocturnal#2168 on 1/9/2013 7:42 AM PST
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I always thought the NV system was ok, but like you said, when I switch out a skill, why should I lose it? Gaining 5 NV for drops is not a big deal to me but the skill change is.

Right now it bothers me not but before I was geared there were a couple skills I would use on bosses vs clearning trash faster.

To me it added a nice strat, but with a loot penalty

Guess i need to start playing again to complain though, what was my last log in a few days ago at that.
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they should simply make the NV permanent once you reach lvl60.
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I don't look at it as a punishment at all but rather a reward for killing many elites.

I'm a big fan of NV - one of the best improvements over D2 IMO. They should definitely keep it as-is.
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I would have agreed before, but now that quests/events grant NV, it takes like 5 minutes to get 5 stacks.

At least it does for MP 0.
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Unfortunately, NV will stay with us forever. It is D3 dev's original design and I seriously doubt they will ever even take it under consideration.

If they remove NV, it would be the first sign, that they see something is wrong with the game.
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Removing NV is a bad idea, it will help the botter get more loots farming on normal monsters. Instead of removing NV, they should let us access act 1 to act 4 way points in 1 game if we created an act 4 game. Just like in d2 you only have to create act 5 baal game and still be able to go to different act without having to leave game.
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Cain i fear not the botter, but i have to agree about the waypoints. Earlier today i made a topic on exactly that :D

"The world must be opened up again (Acts/WP's)"
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7592400373
Edited by Nocturnal#2168 on 1/9/2013 9:41 AM PST
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