Diablo® III

Remove NV from existance

I love the way nephilim valor is working now!
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OP got schooled really hard by Lylirra, how's that feeling bro?
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Spell check. Existence. Thanks.
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01/09/2013 07:56 PMPosted by TopStock
Or when PvP releases it is like the Diablo shadows in that I fight your nerfed shadow and you fight my nerfed shadow and we both win.. WE ALL WIN ALL THE TIME WE ARE WINNERZ!!!


LOL!!! so hard
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i like NV, what i dont like is losing the stacks if i want to try a different set of runes half way through a dungeon. Might as well just restart the whole session.
on my DH i always end back to the same old build anyway, so for that hero it doesnt matter. But i havent found a build i like with the barb and the WD has more potential too.
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I agree with the OP in that losing NV stacks on skill swapping is counter-productive to the intention of promoting diverse playstyle, as well as a problem solving challenge that would increase game longevity. However there still needs to be some penalty to prevent problems already stated. Instead of losing all stacks, each skill swapped out should remove a single stack instead. The amount of total NV stacks could be increased by 1 each mp level higher, so you can get 15 stacks at mp 10. Also, the bonus to gf, mf and exp should be boosted a bit more in each higher mp level. the "reward" for playing at a greater challenge should not be the challenge itself. since there is now a MF cap, and only NV stacks can increase ones total amount past the cap, NV stacks should be increasingly more valuable each higher MP a player can play at, like 5-10% more gf/mf per stack each higher mp lvl. this would help make people strive to be able to play on slightly higher mp, increasing challenge, rewards and fun, while allowing more diverse playstyles when called for.

Another idea, is to simply have no cap on NV stacks. Swapping skills or changing acts could remove 5 NV stacks, but one could technically have 30-40 stacks going through an entire act, so people would be encouraged to stay in the same game, and keep the ball rolling. Perhaps deaths should also remove NV stacks if this were the case, but I think that would make things a lot more interesting for farming. Perhaps a cap should be placed on total NV stacks per MP level, so you get another 10 max per MP level. MP 0 would remain 5, mp 1 would be 10, and 10 more max stacks per each level after (100 NV stacks on MP 10). Yes, 1500-2000 MF on mp 10 if one can handle it. Sounds extreme, but if it takes a person 10 minutes to kill an elite pack on mp 10, while they can kill an elite pack in 5 seconds on mp 2, it is more balanced for rewards dropped based on time. There finally be a point to getting stronger in PvE.

even those buffs may still not balance out the fact farming mp 0-1 for everyone will be more worthwhile than farming mid to high MP just due to speed and volume, but the next balancing act should at least attempt to improve on the problem. "increased challenge for increased rewards" may technically be a true statement as things stand, but still, the most profitable and rewarding level of play should not be the lowest and easiest MP.

MF and GF items still exist in the game and are still spawning. Why is this? If 1.05 was meant to address the phasing out of MF gear and MF swap, why are those items still being rapidly produced in game? Remove the affix then.

i understand the paragon and MP changes were meant to address many issues, but the next step is to balance the amount of reward one gets from the proportional challenge.

so, don't remove NV, make it better.
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01/09/2013 08:14 PMPosted by Chillaxin
I love the way nephilim valor is working now!


i do too BUT -

i d/c so, i lose stacks and it ruins the run and wastes my time. for that reason, get rid of them.

sorry. thats the end of the thead. I'm so sick of runs going good and losing stacks to d/cs even if it happens only once in a while, not fair. fix it too work thru disconnects or its not a good system.

/thread
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Rather than re-wording posts I've made in the past to make it seem like I'm saying some new and shiny, I'm going to link you to a response I provided on a similar subject a weeks back.

BOOM: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004017081?page=3#47

Overall, we think Nephalem Valor does a great job at addressing two core needs. First, it helps make sure that extremely short play sessions (i.e. < 1 minute) are not the optimal way to play. Second, there's a lot of value in being able to swap your skills at will and tailor your builds to the environment around you, but there's also gameplay to finding a build that really works for you in a variety of situations -- we like that NV helps balance these two concepts, and allows players to feel like there is some commitment to a skill build without also feeling like they’re locked into that build forever. So, while there are definitely some issues with the current design, we currently think that the pros outweigh the cons of how the game would probably feel if the system were not in place.

That said, you're right -- the system isn't perfect, and we're definitely looking at ways we can do better. Certainly, one of our goals is to allow people to play game sessions that are about 5 to 10 minutes in length and still be rewarded well, but we need to make sure that in the process we don't make rapidly flipping games the go-to method. It's all about striking the right balance for a wide variety of players, and we'll definitely be keeping your feedback in mind (as well as other threads on the topic) as we explore options for how to improve NV.

Great thread!

(Oh, and PS - I can't seem to find the post where this was asked, but since it's related, we are working to allow NV stacks to persist across Acts.)


To make things a little easier, here are all the replies I posted in that discussion as well:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004017081?page=3#54

"5 to 10 minutes in length and still be rewarded well" Is that really one of your goals for this game? o wait this is subjective what do you mean by "well" If that is your goal, the please show effort of proving that, right now 5 to 10 minutes will get me like maybe a full bag of crap rares

I think you might have misunderstood. We're saying that's a goal we want to achieve, that it's an improvement we want to make to the game as it exists currently. :)


Also are you just balancing the game around Plvl 100?

No, not "just." We take a lot of different factors and play styles into consideration.


http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004017081?page=8#158

12/19/2012 04:32 PMPosted by Lylirra
There are no current plans to remove NV, but we do feel like there are ways that we could continue to improve the system to allow for a broader variety of play styles (i.e. shorter play sessions, as mentioned).


NV overly penalizes players who need to take frequent breaks (for example, parents). I am not asking for 5-10 minute play sessions to be rewarding. What I want is to be able to walk away from the computer for up to 1 hour, and then get back to where I left off without losing my progress.

Why are you booting players out of paused games after only 15 minutes?
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Rather than re-wording posts I've made in the past to make it seem like I'm saying some new and shiny, I'm going to link you to a response I provided on a similar subject a weeks back.

BOOM: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004017081?page=3#47

Overall, we think Nephalem Valor does a great job at addressing two core needs. First, it helps make sure that extremely short play sessions (i.e. < 1 minute) are not the optimal way to play. Second, there's a lot of value in being able to swap your skills at will and tailor your builds to the environment around you, but there's also gameplay to finding a build that really works for you in a variety of situations -- we like that NV helps balance these two concepts, and allows players to feel like there is some commitment to a skill build without also feeling like they’re locked into that build forever. So, while there are definitely some issues with the current design, we currently think that the pros outweigh the cons of how the game would probably feel if the system were not in place.

That said, you're right -- the system isn't perfect, and we're definitely looking at ways we can do better. Certainly, one of our goals is to allow people to play game sessions that are about 5 to 10 minutes in length and still be rewarded well, but we need to make sure that in the process we don't make rapidly flipping games the go-to method. It's all about striking the right balance for a wide variety of players, and we'll definitely be keeping your feedback in mind (as well as other threads on the topic) as we explore options for how to improve NV.

Great thread!

(Oh, and PS - I can't seem to find the post where this was asked, but since it's related, we are working to allow NV stacks to persist across Acts.)

To make things a little easier, here are all the replies I posted in that discussion as well:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004017081?page=3#54

"5 to 10 minutes in length and still be rewarded well" Is that really one of your goals for this game? o wait this is subjective what do you mean by "well" If that is your goal, the please show effort of proving that, right now 5 to 10 minutes will get me like maybe a full bag of crap rares

I think you might have misunderstood. We're saying that's a goal we want to achieve, that it's an improvement we want to make to the game as it exists currently. :)

Also are you just balancing the game around Plvl 100?

No, not "just." We take a lot of different factors and play styles into consideration.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004017081?page=8#158

12/19/2012 04:32 PMPosted by Lylirra
There are no current plans to remove NV, but we do feel like there are ways that we could continue to improve the system to allow for a broader variety of play styles (i.e. shorter play sessions, as mentioned).


BAMF
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you guys need to get over this QQ crap on NV it was made for the players that commit to a build to have a better reward then those who want to change it all the time i mean looks back at D2 you know how many hardcore toons were lost to people pushing the wrong F key to switch skills all the time i know it happened to me a few times and just simply how annoying it was to have to switch your skills all the time cuz you could only use 2 there should be no reason to switch your skills in D3 like you had to back in D2 simply because you have 6 skills you have set it kinda sounds like your asking for a WoW skill bar that lets you use em all whenever you want which is not what this game is about
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01/09/2013 08:45 PMPosted by Ironstorm
Like 99% of rares are total trash and you get stacks to get rares so when you eventually get 5 stacks you are rewarded with yellow trash instead of blue trash. The loot sucks in this game regardless of stacks.


AMEN!!!!!!!!
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don't expect them to make some sort of large sweeping changes that make this game not suck as much as it does right now
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Thanks for posting them here Lylirre, i have also linked the topic they came from in the original post. In fact those very posts are the reason i mentioned the two factors in this thread. I feel there is more to be said, and i feel nephalem valor provides a benefit mostly when you believe it is so yourself, rather than actual benefits.

I can sense there are very strong feelings in favor of NV, and even though i would like to supply only the supreme solution, i acknowledge that far from everyone agrees with me here, however.

Is it foolish of me to imagine a game world where you are free to farm whatever you please, that the same monster will grant you the same rewards from your first moment of fighting till some 3-10 min later? That areas and monster rewards are balanced so well that you can farm in any way you desire? Ultra quick - ultra long, No problem.

Is it foolish of me to think that the already existing restrictions to skill changes, 30sec cd, no swap while on cd and cast a tp to town, are sufficient as limitations to prevent abuse while ensuring that you find a solid build where you will not be tasked to change a skill each new elite pack you encounter?


Except for the drop advantages which could be made baseline, do those features not invalidate the need of a NV system altogether, or is there another purpose?

Could it be the botters that has forced onto us waste time for each game we play?

If it is the reward of prolonged playing without changing skills you are after, would a system such as this not be a more interesting way of being rewarded - and at the same time sate players lust for big boss drops?

Imagine if Nephalem Valor was no longer an ability for elite packs. Instead it gave you stacks of NV when you killed quest bosses, proper bosses.

This would make the bosses substantially more attractive to kill, and for each stack the next boss would drop even more. This would make it attractive to run acts.

There is a distinct nothingness when you kill bosses in the current D3, they used to drop very well in earlier Diablos. This would help build gradually increasing drops for these bosses, as the reward for playing a longer game.

Keywardens require at least 1 stack before they drop their keys.


I know this is probably pointless of me to say, but myself and many others feel NV is a patch up solution, and that a proper game should have no such restriction. You go out, you farm, that's it. Farming begins from the first mobs at its best, there is no need for a rack up time. I look to my bar, i have this weird buff that feels more of a burden you have to suffer than a reward for persistence in build. It even takes up a precious buff slot.
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01/09/2013 08:46 PMPosted by numme
it was made for the players that commit to a build

LOL no it wasnt it was made to extend the lifespan of the game because people were teleporting straight to the WP right before the king in beta and killing him in under a minute over and over again, because back then bosses actually dropped loot

they nerfed boss drops completely, made it so it only drops substantial loot the first kill then every kill after was garbage loot, then added this NV system so you are forced to farm elites all day rather than do what d2 succeeded at
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01/09/2013 08:45 PMPosted by Ironstorm
Like 99% of rares are total trash and you get stacks to get rares so when you eventually get 5 stacks you are rewarded with yellow trash instead of blue trash. The loot sucks in this game regardless of stacks.


they cant have you switching skills in the middle of getting that trash, game breaking....
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I lose NV stacks due to d/cs. This is unfair and regardless of pros and cons agruments about gameplay it puts people with more frequent d/cs at a disadvantge for finding loot.

So, it should go.

Any real counter arguments against that ?
Edited by Fyle#1652 on 1/9/2013 9:09 PM PST
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NV overly penalizes players who need to take frequent breaks (for example, parents). I am not asking for 5-10 minute play sessions to be rewarding. What I want is to be able to walk away from the computer for up to 1 hour, and then get back to where I left off without losing my progress.


If you have a child or other obligations beyond a video game that take precedence then so be it. SC2 was full of parents complaining about the opponent un-pausing the game when one person paused it due to a child issue. That's life.
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