Diablo® III

Remove NV from existance

I've found that I can do a 1hr run and not get a legend so i'm all for ways to encourage shorter sessions, since at least then you won't feel like you've wasted 1,2, 3 hours of your time. I think 30 minutes would be an ideal length.

Also, I see NV as Blizz's insidious way of 'encouraging' long-form farming (don't log out, you'll lose NV!) Since it can take me 10-15 minutes to find 5 rare packs, that 1hr sesh turns into 45min so I'm really only getting 75% efficiency.

I'd be happy for NV to be moved to permanently applied buffs. This game is already compulsive enough, we don't need any more reasons to keep playing and playing and playing.

I would also be happy with the ridiculous NV penalty being removed from skill changes. It's just another artificial way to keep us playing.
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01/09/2013 05:13 PMPosted by hampster
More power to you then. NV offers many options in the way you want to optimize your run.


It offers nothing, it simply removes options when you would not have enough stacks to make it efficient. The purpose is to prevent. Get that clear guys, it is a limiting tool.
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01/09/2013 06:57 PMPosted by Lylirra
(Oh, and PS - I can't seem to find the post where this was asked, but since it's related, we are working to allow NV stacks to persist across Acts.)


That would be fantastic!
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85 Undead Priest
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Posts: 3,761
So, basically, any reward that you don't get is a punishment?

NV was intended to give people a reward for more difficult gameplay: creating and playing a build that can handle a diverse array of situations, rather than constantly switching to the best build for each encounter.

Constant switching would be easier, but more tedious. Without NV, people would feel compelled to switch, which wouldn't be fun.

How can they please both sides? Some people want to switch constantly, because they don't care about their characters having any identity, they just want to perform well. Other people want to develop a build and stick with it. Neither side wants to feel stupid for deliberately throwing away an advantage.

This, obviously, was discussed a lot during development. NV was the result, and it works pretty well for most: it rewards sticking with a build, while still allowing people to change and experiment. If your build isn't working, then at worst, you've wasted a couple minutes -- unlike the hours or days spent building a character in Diablo II, for instance.
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01/09/2013 09:35 PMPosted by Javrius
So, basically, any reward that you don't get is a punishment?


Nope, A reward is small period where you have a gain of something extra, whereas a punishment is a small period where you have less than you would normally have.

This is a small opening period of less than usual, following by a prolonged period of normal farm rate.

This classifies as a punishment. The changed nephalem from bosses for example would feel like a reward because it it not just an increase in basic farm level that you are nerfing yourself when not abusing. It is a small period of extra gain.

Also, there is a thing such as too many rares. We dont need more rares, they become trivial, abundant and do not feel very rare.

01/09/2013 09:35 PMPosted by Javrius
This, obviously, was discussed a lot during development. NV was the result, and it works pretty well for most: it rewards sticking with a build, while still allowing people to change and experiment. If your build isn't working, then at worst, you've wasted a couple minutes -- unlike the hours or days spent building a character in Diablo II, for instance.


And what do you think the community thinks of the thought process of that period? :)
Edited by Nocturnal#2168 on 1/9/2013 9:44 PM PST
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Rather than re-wording posts I've made in the past to make it seem like I'm saying some new and shiny, I'm going to link you to a response I provided on a similar subject a weeks back.

BOOM: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004017081?page=3#47

Overall, we think Nephalem Valor does a great job at addressing two core needs. First, it helps make sure that extremely short play sessions (i.e. < 1 minute) are not the optimal way to play. Second, there's a lot of value in being able to swap your skills at will and tailor your builds to the environment around you, but there's also gameplay to finding a build that really works for you in a variety of situations -- we like that NV helps balance these two concepts, and allows players to feel like there is some commitment to a skill build without also feeling like they’re locked into that build forever. So, while there are definitely some issues with the current design, we currently think that the pros outweigh the cons of how the game would probably feel if the system were not in place.

That said, you're right -- the system isn't perfect, and we're definitely looking at ways we can do better. Certainly, one of our goals is to allow people to play game sessions that are about 5 to 10 minutes in length and still be rewarded well, but we need to make sure that in the process we don't make rapidly flipping games the go-to method. It's all about striking the right balance for a wide variety of players, and we'll definitely be keeping your feedback in mind (as well as other threads on the topic) as we explore options for how to improve NV.

Great thread!

(Oh, and PS - I can't seem to find the post where this was asked, but since it's related, we are working to allow NV stacks to persist across Acts.)


To make things a little easier, here are all the replies I posted in that discussion as well:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004017081?page=3#54

"5 to 10 minutes in length and still be rewarded well" Is that really one of your goals for this game? o wait this is subjective what do you mean by "well" If that is your goal, the please show effort of proving that, right now 5 to 10 minutes will get me like maybe a full bag of crap rares

I think you might have misunderstood. We're saying that's a goal we want to achieve, that it's an improvement we want to make to the game as it exists currently. :)


Also are you just balancing the game around Plvl 100?

No, not "just." We take a lot of different factors and play styles into consideration.


http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7004017081?page=8#158

12/19/2012 04:32 PMPosted by Lylirra
There are no current plans to remove NV, but we do feel like there are ways that we could continue to improve the system to allow for a broader variety of play styles (i.e. shorter play sessions, as mentioned).


:)
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And guys, my first post here contains a link to the qoutes now posted, so check yourself before you wreck yourself, fawning over old news as if it was the end all be all and clutterer of my post :D
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Can someone tell me why the purple monsters don't grant NV stacks? I remember that a blog said they would. I don't get why a resplendent chest does but a purple solo elite does not.
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85 Orc Warrior
8050
Posts: 84
i blame all the world of warcraft kids for making the forums so full of cry baby garbage
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Instead of having the need to have NV to stop people changing skills, how about you return the skill points and weapon masteries so that it stops people doing so? this is the main reason i think most people arent playing anymore and its certainly the reason i played alot of Diablo 2 and think this game is way off the pace.

Even if i got to level 80 with a character in D2, and found out i had ruined my skills i had no problems with going back and remaking my character at all. There is absolutely no difference between anyones ungeared characters at level 60. Thus there is no build diversity which has made this game pretty rubbish so far. Off course the reasoning was to make Items the sole purpose of the game and give Blizzard a way to make more money off the game. But it simply killed the game altogether.

Now we cant have any proper low level Duelers because the skills made available would be the same as everyone else between that level range and the low level gear is absolute rubbish. I have no idea how PVP will even work, the majority of every barbarian every demon hunter and every other character have the exact same builds, striving for exactly the same gear. What will be the difference in winning or losing a dual is how good the roll on those items that your using is compared to the next guy your versing.
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More power to you then. NV offers many options in the way you want to optimize your run.


It offers nothing, it simply removes options when you would not have enough stacks to make it efficient. The purpose is to prevent. Get that clear guys, it is a limiting tool.


With nv you have the option of optimizing several different routes as evidenced by the several different XP and loot runs. You also have the option of doing extremely short runs as evidenced by crypt of the ancients run.

Without NV the best XP route will be one optimized short run that is short, mundane and more repetitive than the current D3. I suspect crypt of the ancients is that best route.

NV is a really smart and original mechanic in my opinion since it provides incentives for people to maximize efficiency around the more challenging content in D3(elites) which equals fun to some degree. It rewards doing full runs but still provides the option of doing extremely short runs... it also opens up many possibilities for different runs. That last part could use further improvement since although there is a variety of different XP runs , they are mostly centered in Act 3.

Not really going to discuss the skill part since that was done due to a huge majority wanting it. I questioned it when I was new but now I'm indifferent and get both sides.
Edited by hampster#1586 on 1/9/2013 11:36 PM PST
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Please, don't remove NV... Of course you have a higher chances with 5 stacks. But it happens often enough to me, that I find a legendary before having the fifth one (and you find enough yellows, too)!

It's the only thing that makes the builds some what resisting! ...and no, skill-points won't come back ;-)
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Posts: 2,193
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I'm not gonna change my skills anyways. The only time you want to change your skills, for a monk at least, if you get in a public match or a party and there is another monk and you are both using the same mantra. Other than that I don't see why it would concern anybody so much.

Why would anyone want NV removed? That would make me mad.
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01/09/2013 08:17 PMPosted by MasterJay
OP got schooled really hard by Lylirra, how's that feeling bro?


Hey MasterJay, explain how Lylirra "schooled" the OP "really hard". To me, it looks like Lylirra said nothing new and that the theme of the post is that Blizzard admits it still has been working on improving Nephalem Valor, and might still have some more work to do. So, there is a difference of opinion between the OP and Lylirra/Blizzard and that's about it. OP believes NV isn't necessary and should removed. Lylirra (somewhat) admits NV needs to be improved.
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01/09/2013 09:08 PMPosted by Andrius
NV overly penalizes players who need to take frequent breaks (for example, parents). I am not asking for 5-10 minute play sessions to be rewarding. What I want is to be able to walk away from the computer for up to 1 hour, and then get back to where I left off without losing my progress.


If you have a child or other obligations beyond a video game that take precedence then so be it. SC2 was full of parents complaining about the opponent un-pausing the game when one person paused it due to a child issue. That's life.


1. SC2 has offline single player.
2. People who play multiplayer when they know there is a high chance of interruption have no leg to stand on.

We're talking about idle disconnects for d3 single player (i.e. playing alone in an un-joinable game). Improving the gameplay experience for players who must frequently AFK for over 15 minutes but under 1 hour enhances customer value for those players. Raising the idle disconnect threshold to 60 minutes should have no negative influence on you, unless you derive happiness from the frustration of others.
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Simplest solution: allow us to move btween acts using waypoint system like in D2 and on top of that allow us to be able to kill all bosses even if we choose different quest, again like in d2

atm we r stuck in a3 keyfarming, because its only place in game with high density mobs, not cool
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NV is an interesting concept that makes a good attempt at:

1) Removing 'single path' farm routes - Stopping Bots
2) Exposing the player to more threats/combination of elites - More Variance in Play
3) Limiting player's skill variation - thus allowing players to specialise in builds
4) Provide bonuses to EXP/MF/GF - creating a chance for co-op between players

However a good attempt it is at doing the above 4, it did NOT actually do it.

1) Bots still run rampant - and the developer must still invest time and effort in removing bots which are becoming smarter
2) Elites are no longer threatening - why did the developer remove Invulnerable Minions and/or other deadly combos?
3) How many builds are there per class?
4) Co-op is STILL not as efficient as solo-ing.

So... lets just leave NV the way it is, give the developer some credit for his attempt in solving the fundamental problems with just 1 solution

1) Prevention is always better than Cure and Mitigation. Preventing Bots can be done via many different ways, starting from the way in which players interact with game data/messages, all the way up to the point where you COMPLETELY randomise dungeons to the extent whereby its more difficult for Bots to path.

2) Make elites harder again. Instead of making the abilities hit harder, make the abilities SMARTER. Example: freezing orbs, arcane beams, molten that cover the whole screen or up to a certain yard away from the elite that's casting it. Horde which focuses on surrounding players. Fast which reacts more towards avoiding players. Poison which slows players down (or reduces healing). Shielding with less duration, but higher frequency.

3) Re-balancing classes is hard. I'm not going to go into it today.

4) Completely remove +HP bonuses for monsters during grouping - or provide bonus EXP for each additional player in a party. If you really wanna learn from your mates, learn from wow developers.
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The only time I personally care about the NV stacks is trying to get those damn keys! Sometimes it takes 5 minutes others 15 to get all 5 stacks and then trying to find the Key Warden in that act.

I know it'll never happen, but if we could change acts and still keep our NV I'd be perfectly happy. Why can one game only exist in one act?
*edit - misspelled words
Edited by DNRCMO#1329 on 1/10/2013 5:51 AM PST
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Posts: 9
Can you just introduce a mp11 (harder than mp10) that that puts in place a permanent NV buff at all times from the moment you enter the game and maybe adds another 1-2 random affixes to elite packs?

I doubt many (if any) could do any play less than a minute under those circumstances.

Thanks,
Envaris
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