Diablo® III

Item Conditions Priority Lists

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Well like I said, the Endgame section takes opinion and not just flat stats into account. I (like quite a few others) feel that Litany + Reflection is BiS because of the balance of offense+defense Litany offers. The elite DR is one of the most underrated stats in the game in my opinion. That stat alone is why many of us consider it BiS. Also keep in mind that theres a good chance elite DR will be applicable in pvp too.

As far as pure offense, the Unity is trumped also by Wailing Host, because the Unity is limited in nature because one of it's base rolls is average damage. 9% IAS will almost always be more valuable (especially to people with huge budgets) than 66 average damage (the max roll).

edit: Missed on first read, that you said best roll for Litany is AD, thats possible I agree, but theres a better chance that CD or IAS will offer more benefit. Most often given no budget limit, IAS will likely be the best choice.
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 1/10/2013 10:49 PM PST
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thanks stan.

i'm not sure i agree that ias beats out avg damage but i'll do some play testing with litany and wailing to see how that goes.
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Well remember, it depends on the rest of your gear, but I found that on very high end monks who already are close to the crit damage and chance caps, that IAS provides the biggest gain.

At lower gear levels (like mine) other things like AD are indeed better.

The Unity vs. WH argument is AD vs. IAS because the former has one roll while the latter has two, meaning that both can have the same CD and CC.
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then isn't it also fair to say that the value of ias will also diminish after stacking it to a certain degree?
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Oh thats absolutely true, but generally IAS is the last thing to be stacked by monks. I'm sure thats because things like CC Mempo's and Lacuni's cost so darn much though :p
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01/11/2013 12:56 AMPosted by Stryder
then isn't it also fair to say that the value of ias will also diminish after stacking it to a certain degree?


For PvE, alot of people are using Cyclone build. Since more then half our damage generally comes from our SW. The more IAS, the more tornadoes are procced. Proven by the sudden light that have come with the SW explosion people have been using.
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cool list stan, good job.

I skimmed some comments and see your response to litany being BIS. IMO since it is limited to 4.5% crit chance it cannot be best in slot. a perfect end game BIS ring will have the following in my opinion:

AVG damage
6% crit chance,
50% crit damage,
9% ASI
dex/vit roll
80 all res.

Now anything close to that is obviously hard to come by, but it is far and beyond better than any litany could possibly roll.

Litany has a max of 2 damage modifiers when there are 4 available to roll. one of the modifiers it comes with is gimped to 4.5% (75% of max roll). AND the all res that spawns on it is capped at 70! it cant even get the max all res roll.

replacing my rare ring with a 9% ASI perfect rolled litany drops my DPS almost 13k, only gives me a 50k EHP boost to elites, and my all res roll is low, and i have no vit!

anyways, list looks pretty good after a quick first read, but litany is definitely NOT #1, its really not even close...
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Thats all potentially true. The only counter I have, is to suggest you buy as cheap a Litany as you can and try it out on mp10 and let me/us know whether you can tell the difference defensively. I know I can :)
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01/11/2013 03:48 PMPosted by gotaplanstan
Thats all potentially true. The only counter I have, is to suggest you buy as cheap a Litany as you can and try it out on mp10 and let me/us know whether you can tell the difference defensively. I know I can :)


so you would take a ring with:

4.5% CC
234 life regen
70 AR
7% dmg reduction
169 DEX
9% ASI

over a rare ring with:

50 avg dmg
6% CC
50% CD
9% ASI
80 AR
95 DEX
95 VIT

if so then the litany is BIS (to you at least), if you would take the rare then the rare is BIS.

I think most people would take the rare as it would greatly outperform the litany.

This of course is based on perfect rolls (I am not positive the perfect dex/vit roll or max average damage). End Game to me means as perfect and high quality as possible, with the fewest wasted stats that maximized your damage and EHP (self made definition just now). If you arent basing your END game criteria on perfect stats then you might as well call it "Budget End Game" or something similar.

by this definition, the litany is flawed as I said before because:
-70 All res is 10 short of perfect
-4.5 crit is 1.5 short of perfect
-Life regen isnt a top preferred stat by most players
-it doesnt maximize DPS or EHP, which a rare with perfect rolls does a better job at.

Comparing a perfect rare to a perfect litany in my d3up profile (I know results will vary depending on personal gear) a perfect rare adds 22k+ dps and some 15k EHP vs all compared to the Litany's EHP vs elites (50k more EHP to everything else).

Those numbers kind of speak for themselves... I dont think you can keep the Litany as the #1 ring....

EDIT: The question should be, if you have a perfect rolled litany ring, is it possible to get a better ring? the answer is yes; therefore it should not be considered BIS for end game material...
Edited by Tarzan#1737 on 1/11/2013 4:32 PM PST
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Considering most of the people other than myself who have claimed it's BiS are in the same situation as you at over 200k unbuffed. And having experienced 7% EDR vs. 0% EDR I think it will take more than one person's opinion to change my mind, as that is generally the argument others have made too. Atm though, more people think Litany + Reflection is BiS than not.

Like I said in the OP, the endgame section is opinionated, so keep that in mind.

edit: don't get me wrong, I understand your mathematical argument, and that aspect IS correct, but I weighed more than just offense and the mitigation outweighs the lost dps imo (and other's obviously, as well)
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 1/11/2013 4:36 PM PST
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01/11/2013 04:28 PMPosted by Tarzan
End Game to me means as perfect and high quality as possible, with the fewest wasted stats that maximized your damage and EHP (self made definition just now).


That is what I think also. Just my opinion though.
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01/11/2013 04:38 PMPosted by n0rain
Just my opinion though.

And like I said that section is opinionated, which makes everything you two have been saying just as valid as what I'm saying. Just because we don't agree doesn't mean that either side is wrong, just perhaps that different people believe in different gearing philosophies. Which is also good :)
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 1/11/2013 5:22 PM PST
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Just did a survey of the top 100 hero score monks on diablo progress. saw only one litany. the rest were rares with the exception to about 5 unity rings.

Although your opinion might be that litany is the best end game, I think the overall consensus among the highest tiered players is that rares>>> litany for end game.

You should change that in your OP so people dont thing inferior gear is the way to go...
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Finally got enough time to read through this (both kids asleep before 8 and husband at work? Miracle!)! Thanks for the post :D Getting various opinions gives me more to experiment with in the AH and d3up and saves me time and money (both of which are lacking :P).
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Just did a survey of the top 100 hero score monks on diablo progress. saw only one litany. the rest were rares with the exception to about 5 unity rings.

Although your opinion might be that litany is the best end game, I think the overall consensus among the highest tiered players is that rares>>> litany for end game.

You should change that in your OP so people dont thing inferior gear is the way to go...

Sorry I missed your response and left you hanging here lol. I just checked the top twenty heroscore monks on our server and this is the breakdown:

11 with ls (1 with dual ls)
3 with skorn (1 with ls)
1 with s&b (with ls obviously)

ONLY 3 with more EHP than me (a lowly 70ish mil gold character XD)

I'd hardly say taking a pool that the majority is pure pdps glass cannons, is worth following as a loose guide for what is BiS unless you want 4-450k ehp (the average of the 17 monks with less ehp than me) and still having to rely on the crutches of OWE and Serenity.

I still believe that with balance in mind (e/pdps + mitigation + ehp) that I would rather have a Litany. The one case where the EDR would probably not be needed is when you're pushing the ehp extremes like jco or photon (or any of the other VERY well geared s&b users) while using a shield. In that case (s&b + high ehp) I would say a rare with more offensive stats would definitely be better. Being that s&b makes up 1/3 of the weapon setup choices though, thats another reason why I put Litany ahead of rare.

Hopefully that helps explain my point of view a little better XD
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 1/24/2013 11:50 AM PST
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Just did a survey of the top 100 hero score monks on diablo progress. saw only one litany. the rest were rares with the exception to about 5 unity rings.

Although your opinion might be that litany is the best end game, I think the overall consensus among the highest tiered players is that rares>>> litany for end game.

You should change that in your OP so people dont thing inferior gear is the way to go...

Sorry I missed your response and left you hanging here lol. I just checked the top twenty heroscore monks on our server and this is the breakdown:

11 with ls (1 with dual ls)
3 with skorn (1 with ls)
1 with s&b (with ls obviously)

ONLY 3 with more EHP than me (a lowly 70ish mil gold character XD)

I'd hardly say taking a pool that the majority is pure pdps glass cannons, is worth following as a loose guide for what is BiS unless you want 4-450k ehp (the average of the 17 monks with less ehp than me) and still having to rely on the crutches of OWE and Serenity.

I still believe that with balance in mind (e/pdps + mitigation + ehp) that I would rather have a Litany. The one case where the EDR would probably not be needed is when you're pushing the ehp extremes like jco or photon (or any of the other VERY well geared s&b users) while using a shield. In that case (s&b + high ehp) I would say a rare with more offensive stats would definitely be better. Being that s&b makes up 1/3 of the weapon setup choices though, thats another reason why I put Litany ahead of rare.

Hopefully that helps explain my point of view a little better XD


a near perfect roll quadfecta (CC. CD. avg dmg, asi, dex/vit, all res) rare will have WAY higher ehp vs elites than a perfect litany will while increasing your DPS instead of decreasing it

seems pretty clear cut to me.

the problem i have with when you say you can feel the difference with the litany's reduced elite damage is you obviously havent had the opportunity to test out an end game rare ring. if your gear was end gear maybe your opinion on the litany would hold more water, but since its not end game, and you are only speculating and saying it feels better for you (based on not end game rares) just doesnt work.

i dont see many end game monks with a litany. they must know something right? i feel like i am pretty balanced when it comes to dps vs ehp, and a litany is a huge downgrade for me.
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Avg Dmg Litanies have the highest value for money, but arent anywhere near end game material.

Even a 200M IAS Litany would be considered a downgrade compared to my 50M rare ring, both in terms of DPS and EHP.
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gotaplanstan - if i asked you what i should upgrade on my monk would you tell me to swap my ring out for a litany?

I seriously doubt it...
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01/24/2013 12:42 PMPosted by Tarzan
the problem i have with when you say you can feel the difference with the litany's reduced elite damage is you obviously havent had the opportunity to test out an end game rare ring. if your gear was end gear maybe your opinion on the litany would hold more water, but since its not end game, and you are only speculating and saying it feels better for you (based on not end game rares) just doesnt work.

100% valid point of view. Remember back at the end of the OP I said that the data I used was from widely varying gear levels though? This exact type of discussion was why I was originally hesitant in changing the opinionated section from OVERALL to ENDGAME. Because I really wanted to cover a broader base.

01/24/2013 12:42 PMPosted by Tarzan
i dont see many end game monks with a litany. they must know something right? i feel like i am pretty balanced when it comes to dps vs ehp, and a litany is a huge downgrade for me.

Its not quite as huge as you might think. Mine for instance, a 3.5m AD Litany is a 7% dps decrease for you, while being a 1% increase in mitigation NOT counting the EDR (for some reason the Simulate feature on d3up doesn't include ehp forms besides base, +dodge, and +dodge+block), and increasing ehp by 2%. So with your balancing desire statement in mind, you lose 7% to gain 1% and 2%. And remember, thats a 3.5m ring thats not MUCH worse than yours. How much did you pay for yours? Cost efficiency wise Litany is far better, like Shade pointed out. Yet another reason I valued it so highly.

01/24/2013 12:46 PMPosted by Shade
Even a 200M IAS Litany would be considered a downgrade compared to my 50M rare ring, both in terms of DPS and EHP.

Thats true. Looking at both your's, and Tarzan's rings compared to mine and higher quality Litanys shows that it probably is best for me to change back the heading from ENDGAME to OVERALL. Since I WAS also factoring in cost efficiency (somewhat) into what I was considering best.
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