Diablo® III

PTR Challenge - Single Target DPS

Here is a challenge to everyone.

Can you come up with a build in the PTR that beats you current dps versus a single target, a.k.a. boss?

To make it balanced, test on Azmodan MP5?

I have tried a few ideas personally with the new buffed spenders to no avail.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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Seems EXCEEDINGLY unlikely.

There is virtually no way that monk single target DPS could have increased this patch.

There are no new offensive passives and, without changing any mechanics, spirit spenders would need to be buffed to absolutely redic levels before they could compete with FoT:TC + SW:Cyclone in single target consistent DPS.

That being said, I think I will be able to absolutely WRECK my previous bests for loot/hr in 1.0.7 thanks to WoL being buffed like crazy.

Simple preliminary tests show me doing MP5 VotA at similar speeds to my current MP1 spec! ><

It sucks that our single target dps went down because it will be harder to do MP10 Ubers but I don't think that it's going to be a huge difference.

-Druin, the happy monk

Edit: I should note that I am not at all happy with the direction Blizz is taking with these monk changes. I think there are fundamental mechanics problems with the class and, until they are addressed, we will continue to be stuck in the same FoT:TC SW:C rut we have been in since 1.0.3.

But I am a glass-half-full guy and I will take more ways to play and a 5-15% single target DPS drop over more of the same from 1.0.6. :D
Edited by Druin#1518 on 1/17/2013 4:00 PM PST
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If any skill's DPS can exceed that of the usual TC/Cyclone combo, it can be done; if not, it can't. I haven't really looked at the skill buffs, but some of them look large enough that I could probably switch a mobility/utility skill (DS for me) in exchange for a spirit spender and beat a single target in a shorter amount of time. I don't know that I'd want to make that trade in non-boss fights, but that's my choice, not a limitation forced by the skills.

I'll poke around with some numbers later and see whether anything catches my eye. Note that I'm not using Overawe, so I can easily afford to spam a non-mantra during single combat.
Edited by Vrkhyz#1472 on 1/17/2013 6:06 PM PST
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I haven't done it a ton so far, but I HAVE come very close in some cases to my fastest times on 1.0.6 and gotten some respectable dps.

The problem I am running into is that I can't generate enough spirit to spam Bells AND Overawe. I will continue to give it a shot though tomorrow with a couple other ideas.
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I think it's doable for me, but I use a different build than you. First, though, I need to throw out all the ideas that would actually work in 1.0.6 and allow me to eclipse what my current build is doing. For example, spamming Fire Ally every second against a single target is better for me than carrying Faith in the Light in 1.0.6, but I won't count that. (I don't do it for multiple reasons.) Similarly, I could trade Ascension and Beacon of Ytar for Foresight and Combination Strike and improve my DPS, but that's not what we're talking about here.

The most obvious candidate is Wave of Light, which should now do 874% damage to a single target (829% plus the "45% in a line" bonus). Here are the relevant parts of my current build:

Thunderclap
Cyclone
Faith in the Light
Beacon of Ytar

My real DPS in 1.0.6 is 199,077, and it should be 195,332 on the PTR. The question, then, is whether I can beat my 1.0.6 figure by changing skills in such a way that they'd work better on the PTR than they would in 1.0.6 itself.

For starters, assume I trade Faith in the Light for Blazing Wrath. In 1.0.6, thanks to the snapshot mechanic, this would be a terrible idea, but it's a slight improvement on the PTR, as my EDPS climbs to 196,266. If I traded Beacon for Combination Strike, I'd raise my EDPS to 209,919 on the PTR, which beats my 1.0.6 EDPS. If I do that in 1.0.6, however, I'd drop my DPS to 190,354, which is a 4.4% loss.

So, yes, it's possible for certain monks to trade skills on the PTR and get a better EDPS. I think the easiest avenue is Wave of Light, however. Assuming that WoL doesn't account for APS and IAS outside of the animation (which, as I recall, is correct), my WoL-only EDPS on the PTR, after trading FitL for WoL, would be 217,491:

672.715 (AWD)
x 8.74 (829% WoL damage + 45% WoL straight-line damage)
x 22.3 (2130 DEX)
x 1.6588 (1 + 27% CHC + 244% CHD)
= 217,491

But my non-WoL DPS would drop to 170,666, so I'd need five bells to every two Thunderclaps to make that work. Clearly, that won't work at all. If I also change Beacon to Combination Strike, however, I'd get better results:
  • WoL-only DPS: 234,890
  • Thunderclap/Cyclone DPS: 184,319

At this point, assuming the attack speeds are equal, I need three bells to every seven Thunderclaps to equal my 1.0.6 EDPS. If I use Empowered Wave, I need 120 spirit to cast those three bells, but seven TC attacks accounts for only one WoL activation. Clearly, I'm going to need a lot of spirit-generating gear to make this work. But it seems like there ought to be some way to make it work without gimping you. Unfortunately, Quickening is still very far behind Thunderclap for both single-target damage and tornado generation; Inner Storm gives me some spirit but loses tornado damage. So I'm not sure about that avenue, but WoL actually does enough per cast to be better than FitL. The question is whether you can generate spirit often enough to take advantage of it.

Hope this helps.
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Let's not forget that single-target damage isn't everything. In the right areas, like the Fields of Slaughter, having a mega-bomb WoL attack might be worth a lot. And, even if the numbers are just close, it'll be nice to be able to switch skills and try out different builds without feeling like you're making yourself uncompetitive with your usual build. Remember that there are situations in which other primaries outperform Thunderclap.
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Wave of light seems to have a ~.75 haste modifier. It took me ~8 seconds to cast 6 bells at 1 APS and ~4 seconds to cast 6 at 2 APS. I noticed with empowered light on PTR it has a proc coefficient of .22*2 or .44.

0 Spirit Regeneration, 2 APS and 40% CHC
Thunderclap and Sweeping wind combination:
Cyclone from TC: 1.5*1.25*1.56*.4*W = 1.17W
TC: 1.5*1.45*W = 2.175W
Vortex: .6W
Total: 3.945W

Empowered wave and Sweeping wind:
Cyclone from Empowered Wave: .75*.44*1.56*.4*W = .20592W
Empowered Wave: .75*8.74*W = 6.555W
Vortex: .6W
Total: 7.56684W

If we use overawe and blazing wrath then recasting overawe gives us roughly 17% DPS for 3 seconds.

So in this case overawe with TC and SW is worth:
.17 * (3.945W) * 2 * 3 = 4.0239W (Overawe bonus over 3 second duration)
In this situation, mantra should be worth more DPS.

If the "haste modifiers" are correct then the actual cost of using Empowered Wave is 52(40 + 2*6) because of the 2 missed TC attacks during bell cast. The example here is considering outright spamming of either skill.

Empowered wave should be less DPS than wall of light even though it has better damage per spirit. The reason for this is because the real cost of using spirit spenders is the spirit cost plus the damage and spirit lost from thunderclap and its expected cyclone damage.

When testing on Ghom with a fixed damage stat and 40 CHC% all 3 tests ran close. The only buff used was overawe. Ghom health 738091, Sheet DPS 793.93.
TC + SW + Overawe spam averaged 160 seconds.
Real DPS ~ 4613 or 793.93 * 1.48 * ~3.9259(Above we had 3.945W)

TC + SW + Overawe + Empowered wave spam averaged 159 seconds.
DPS ~ 4642

TC + SW + Overawe + Wall of light spam averaged 157 seconds.
DPS ~ 4701

As expected Wall of light was slightly stronger than Empowered wave. Overawe however was weakest. This is possibly due to incorrect haste modifiers or RNG but also the fact that excess spirit was generated in the overawe tests. The excess could have gone to Faith or Blazing wrath which would have given greater DPS than the pure bell spam. Conversely, either of those buffs could fit in the bell rotation as well. The other spirit spenders should be weaker than wave of light. In the tests, adding wave of light into the mix gave ~0.8W. With overawe in consideration, wave of light doesn't seem to be worth it for single target DPS. Putting a damage buff or a utility skill in its place seems to be a better choice.
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I feel like threads like this should be placed in PTR feedback forums so *maybe* Blizz will look into better changes??

That's probably wishful thinking on my part though.
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Few questions.

1. The common findings seem to have point out that the faster your APS, the more dmg you lose from being unable to snapshot SW Cyclone, is this correct?

2. If WOL numbers stay the same as in PTR, would dropping FitL in favor of WOL be a good move, was wondering if the additional spirit expenditure from WOL would hurt Overawe spamming and actually lower our real dps?

3. I have plans to drop my Inna's set, but am actually afraid to do so as it would be impossible to use SW,WOL AND overawe spam together, any ideas on how to do all together? Or would is it still mandatory to stick to Inna's set to save spirit for WOL and Overawe?
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I haven't done it a ton so far, but I HAVE come very close in some cases to my fastest times on 1.0.6 and gotten some respectable dps.

The problem I am running into is that I can't generate enough spirit to spam Bells AND Overawe. I will continue to give it a shot though tomorrow with a couple other ideas.

Is Quickening a viable alternative? More spirit? I guess you'd lose the AoE from TC ... but against single targets !
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I've had good results with 3 generators, fot + blazing fist + foresight. You basically use the normal cookiecutter build but you swap resolve for combination strike, and serenity and blind for the other two generators. You do need quite a lot of dps and ls on both weapons for this to work though. But regen is crazy high when your running with that buffed dps all the time. I did get same time vs ghom on mp10 with this build as I do in 1.0.5 with my usual farming build (2 spirit regens, and using blind before sw).

One thing I haven't tested is if this can be beat some how using exploding palm, but I dunno which skill I would swap for it to make it better, maybe breath of heaven.

J - eu monk
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@jovi: If you make that switching in 1.0.6, you'll almost certainly get better results. The question is whether you can get a better PTR result than a 1.0.6 build.

@Piffle: I'm going to run some Quickening numbers again, but I think the answer was "no, it's not viable." I'll check it again, though.

@Kaho: Thanks for the haste modifier on Wave of Light. Exactly the info I needed, I think. That, and I just got the Wall of Light mod (1202% + 45%) from the PTR.

@Everyone: This is going to be player- and skill-dependent. If you're spamming Overawe, you're probably not generating enough spirit to afford bell activations. On the other hand, I'm using Hard Target, and I'd gladly give up another 15% dodge chance to deal more damage.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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Wave of light seems to have a ~.75 haste modifier. It took me ~8 seconds to cast 6 bells at 1 APS and ~4 seconds to cast 6 at 2 APS. I noticed with empowered light on PTR it has a proc coefficient of .22*2 or .44.

0 Spirit Regeneration, 2 APS and 40% CHC
Thunderclap and Sweeping wind combination:
Cyclone from TC: 1.5*1.25*1.56*.4*W = 1.17W
TC: 1.5*1.45*W = 2.175W
Vortex: .6W
Total: 3.945W

Empowered wave and Sweeping wind:
Cyclone from Empowered Wave: .75*.44*1.56*.4*W = .20592W
Empowered Wave: .75*8.74*W = 6.555W
Vortex: .6W
Total: 7.56684W

If we use overawe and blazing wrath then recasting overawe gives us roughly 17% DPS for 3 seconds.

So in this case overawe with TC and SW is worth:
.17 * (3.945W) * 2 * 3 = 4.0239W (Overawe bonus over 3 second duration)
In this situation, mantra should be worth more DPS.

If the "haste modifiers" are correct then the actual cost of using Empowered Wave is 52(40 + 2*6) because of the 2 missed TC attacks during bell cast. The example here is considering outright spamming of either skill.

Empowered wave should be less DPS than wall of light even though it has better damage per spirit. The reason for this is because the real cost of using spirit spenders is the spirit cost plus the damage and spirit lost from thunderclap and its expected cyclone damage.

When testing on Ghom with a fixed damage stat and 40 CHC% all 3 tests ran close. The only buff used was overawe. Ghom health 738091, Sheet DPS 793.93.
TC + SW + Overawe spam averaged 160 seconds.
Real DPS ~ 4613 or 793.93 * 1.48 * ~3.9259(Above we had 3.945W)

TC + SW + Overawe + Empowered wave spam averaged 159 seconds.
DPS ~ 4642

TC + SW + Overawe + Wall of light spam averaged 157 seconds.
DPS ~ 4701

As expected Wall of light was slightly stronger than Empowered wave. Overawe however was weakest. This is possibly due to incorrect haste modifiers or RNG but also the fact that excess spirit was generated in the overawe tests. The excess could have gone to Faith or Blazing wrath which would have given greater DPS than the pure bell spam. Conversely, either of those buffs could fit in the bell rotation as well. The other spirit spenders should be weaker than wave of light. In the tests, adding wave of light into the mix gave ~0.8W. With overawe in consideration, wave of light doesn't seem to be worth it for single target DPS. Putting a damage buff or a utility skill in its place seems to be a better choice.


This "real cost of using a spirit spender" concept is the reason that buffing spirit spender damage is not really the avenue I would take to "fix" the monk class.

There is such a gigantic opportunity cost attached to anything that stops you from auto-attacking with FoT:TC with SW:C active that it is incredibly hard to justify using those skills.

That being said, you may be able to get increased utility if not increased damage out of a bells build.

For MP10 Ubers, which we are now strictly slower at killing as a class, you could switch the Faith slot with WoL:Blinding Light and, while you would most likely see a small drop in single target DPS, you would also see a very large increase in eHP due to long periods of perma-stun.

The only reason I suggest this is that with the improved damage on Bells, the opportunity cost of using them is no longer so high that doing so for Utility purposes is out of the question.
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This "real cost of using a spirit spender" concept is the reason that buffing spirit spender damage is not really the avenue I would take to "fix" the monk class.

There is such a gigantic opportunity cost attached to anything that stops you from auto-attacking with FoT:TC with SW:C active that it is incredibly hard to justify using those skills.

That being said, you may be able to get increased utility if not increased damage out of a bells build.

For MP10 Ubers, which we are now strictly slower at killing as a class, you could switch the Faith slot with WoL:Blinding Light and, while you would most likely see a small drop in single target DPS, you would also see a very large increase in eHP due to long periods of perma-stun.

The only reason I suggest this is that with the improved damage on Bells, the opportunity cost of using them is no longer so high that doing so for Utility purposes is out of the question.


Does that mean the Inna's set will be a must to keep up spirit?Activation of SW without Inna's would be equal to 1 WOL bell (or almost 2 with the reduced spirit) I see no way we can keep up SW/WOL/Overawe at the same time.

I havent downloaded the PTR to test, but the monk buffs look to be overrated at first glance.
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Well, ran a few more ideas and its a bust. Can't beat best times on 1.0.6

Blizz sucks.
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- Diablo III (Monk)
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Does that mean the Inna's set will be a must to keep up spirit?Activation of SW without Inna's would be equal to 1 WOL bell (or almost 2 with the reduced spirit) I see no way we can keep up SW/WOL/Overawe at the same time.

I havent downloaded the PTR to test, but the monk buffs look to be overrated at first glance.


I am personally VERY partial to Inna's set because I love the way it looks, I have good Inna's items, and I really like the infi-SW style of play.

That being said, no, I do not think it is required. You can easily keep SW up by just casting bells at stuff (they could as hits and have a HUGE range) and with 20+spir/sec, recasting SW and getting it to 3 stacks (again you can insta-3stack with bells) really isn't that much a burden if it only happens infrequently.

If you are going for a zero-spirit-regen build, you won't be using Inna's OR Bells and you will simply see a small decrease in DPS because you can't Faith snap your SW anymore. :D
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I still think it might be doable, but I've been crunching other numbers today, so I haven't gotten around to it. If it isn't currently doable, I suspect it's close with some small tweaks from Blizzard.
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aegSYk!cVU!YbYcca

That one isn't too bad. Not great mind you, but not too bad. I get about 1.4mil dps out of it.

Spam overawe, hit bell to rid excess spirit, when FitL is off cooldown hit it and spam bells.

Rinse, repeat.

P.S. Chant of Resonance not really necessary of course. I left it in instead of using STI just to try and squeeze a little more dps out of it.
Edited by Fitz#1329 on 1/18/2013 2:53 PM PST
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Aha, found a better one.

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#aUeSYk!gVU!YZacca

1.5mil dps

No way I could use this to farm MP10 though, like I did with 1.5mil dps build on 1.0.6.
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I think I can do it, using WoL in place of either Faith in the Light or Beacon of Ytar. And I'm still trying to figure out whether an Overawe player can flip FitL to WoL successfully. (I wouldn't be able to flip Overawe to WoL successfully.)

More later.
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