Diablo® III

AS bashing has got to stop

IAS is fine if you know how to throttle your attacks, and manage your mana. Same people always ranting how it breaks there builds don't know how setup there WD's correctly or they focus in on a few very acute scenarios that make up the minority of your game play. If I had my choice in gear (unlimited funds) I'd be aiming for 1.8 AS or so for my bear spec WITH my slower 1h weapon. I've ran it over 2 and had no problems with the exception of the non-related issue of not having the LS needed to survive in upper mp on the weapon that allowed me to get over 2 AS.

You can support it with VQ and a little regen on your gear, or you can support it with a spec like mine if you don't want to run primaries. For Upper MP when GF/GI no longer becomes AS effective I drop GF, and go SA/BR/GI

AS is very useful for all MPs. It frees up your legs, allows you to do burst damage, and kite to avoid damage while reducing the cast animation time for quicker attacks. The end goal for a WD should to stack as much simultaneous damage as possible you do that with a combination of quick large damaging attacks, CC's, and stacking DOTs.
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 1/9/2013 12:56 AM PST
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The alternative is just to stand and tank mp10 elitepacks in melee with bears, because with this crazy life steal you don't need to kite anything, you can't die, as long as you have mana. So in the end you kill significantly faster. But hey, you can always kite, throw little spiders to replenish mana, and say attack speed is awesome. It is fine, it has only one little minor flaw, it makes you kill slower. But who would care about that!
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01/09/2013 01:12 AMPosted by aerial
The alternative is just to stand and tank mp10 elitepacks in melee with bears, because with this crazy life steal you don't need to kite anything, you can't die, as long as you have mana. So in the end you kill significantly faster. But hey, you can always kite, throw little spiders to replenish mana, and say attack speed is awesome. It is fine, it has only one little minor flaw, it makes you kill slower. But who would care about that!


You need to get the bears out quick enough, or do enough damage with a larger % of LS (ie 2h) to make that viable, drop your multiple IAS pieces and see how that works @ 1.2 AS. With half the LS of a skorn. Granted you have a very NICE main weapon not something you would see very often available in the US servers if at all, we pretty much run the exact same AS and I know when I drop my gear to 1.2 it doesn't work very well at all.

Most of the time you are required to move around to attack. Packs don't all nicely fit into slow moving ghom sized blobs in normal game play. So there isn't much point in standing in one spot all day (and it makes for very boring game play).

I don't use VQ very often so I'll let somebody else defend it's viability. I much prefer my set and forget one shot mana return from locust. Then having to constantly swap between bears and a primary.

As far as it making you kill slower.. if you don't run out of mana then you aren't killing slower. Assuming of course you are doing similar damage in either case. If you mana isn't getting somewhat drained by the end of the a battle then you can use more attack speed. Mana resource management needs to be broken out in to 3 parts.

Basically Pre-battle grooming, in battle sustaining, and after battle recovery.

If I know on average it takes 15 attacks to kill the average creatures @ the mp that I'm playing and my pool is large enough to sustain 20 attacks. There is no reason not to dump those attacks as quickly as possible then recover as you move to the next group and repeat. GI, Zunis, and regen, sw, etc, will fill you back up, reduction will mitigate, and globes, regen, locust, vq, haunt, roe, widow makers, etc, will keep you full during the course of the battle.

----To be clear this doesn't mean stack 3.0 AS. It means you need to find the balance. You don't want to be going OOM all the time, but you don't want your bubble staying full all the time either. Either way though at the end of the day, farming speed for WD's and most specs/classes in upper MP (9-10) is so inefficient for farming, or xp that tit for tat arguments on if something takes a couple seconds longer to kill this way or that way is totally pointless. Upper MP is really just a gear check for us or one of the ways those of with big egos to feed use to compare sword sizes in lieu of any real game ladder. Just like some people choose to build there specs around speed running lower mp and then bragging about how much XP per hour they can do.
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 1/9/2013 2:42 AM PST
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I don't think anyone is saying that you should avoid attack speed.
It is just should be last priority.
You will have attack speed from lacunis, you will have attack speed on gloves (because trifecta is best you can get, there is no max damage mods).
But for example when it comes to rings and amulets, if you can't afford quantifecta, it is better to take max damage, crit chance and crit bonus instead of ias, crit, crit bonus.
You will still end up having about 1.5 aps with this.
Just I for example often see people who buy ias+crit bonus zuni ring (because they add a lot of dps and are cheaper than crit chance + bonus). Some people pick ias on amulet for some reason, at cost of max damage or crit. These are moves that don't matter for other classes, but will gimp witch doctor.
People who stack 3.0 aps, use mempo, inna pants, are whole different story, they only care about diabloprogress.

And finally, for low mp you can have all ias you want, because !@#$ is so easy, it doesn't really matter, you getting sea of mana from health globes and kills. Last remaining challange in this game for pvm is making it work for mp10 (not efficient I know).
Ironically most efficient spec is locust swarm, for low mp, and that also doesn't care about attack speed, base damage counts.
Edited by aerial#2212 on 1/9/2013 2:57 AM PST
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I don't think anyone is saying that you should avoid attack speed.
It is just should be last priority.
You will have attack speed from lacunis, you will have attack speed on gloves (because trifecta is best you can get, there is no max damage mods).
But for example when it comes to rings and amulets, if you can't afford quantifecta, it is better to take max damage, crit chance and crit bonus instead of ias, crit, crit bonus.
You will still end up having about 1.5 aps with this.
Just I for example often see people who buy ias+crit bonus zuni ring (because they add a lot of dps and are cheaper than crit chance + bonus). Some people pick ias on amulet for some reason, at cost of max damage or crit. These are moves that don't matter for other classes, but will gimp witch doctor.
People who stack 3.0 aps, use mempo, inna pants, are whole different story, they only care about diabloprogress.


Well, actually there are people who claim you should avoid Attack speed, and there are people who just fail to convoy themselves correctly and come across as saying that when that isn't what they intended on meaning. Which is why threads like this keep coming up.

I run IAS on my Pox because I don't run lacuni's. A pair of lacuni's that will beat out my bracers are stupidly expensive and rare in the US server. I also built my spec around maxing int which is hard to do with lacuni's... ...but that's a whole different topic. I found it better just to run inna's up to mp7, then forgo the extra 12 MS and switch to tankier pants for MP8-10. For me to get enough IAS to make a 1.2 AS weapon viable a IAS POX is a must, and for somebody like me who wants to be running a 1.2 weapon @ 1.7-1.8 AS I'm going to need trifectas where and when i can afford them. Why run that high? Because I know when I hit a shrine, or use BBV, or get in a Wiz bubble my spec comes alive.

Gloves are a good option but it's also important for a WD to have PUR if you are going to use GI/GF (so you have to get that where you can) if you aren't using a TOD. Although if I could get my hands on a solid TOD with ZC reduction I would just swap Mojos and drop PUR for AR, or IAS.

While IAS doesn't have obvious bonus to WD like it does for other classes. It helps out greatly with general playability and mobility. There is no point in having 24 MS if every one of your attacks roots you to the ground (and no i don't mean you specific as you have multiple IAS items). You won't be able to effectively attack while maneuvering to avoid many of the affixes that can quickly kill most players.

Also I wouldn't pigeon hole some items as diabloprogress only. It really depends on the rest of spec. If I had a solid SOS with ZC reduction I'd use a CC mempo.
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yup like OP has said , IAS is good for WD if u can maintain the mana required for spamming ur skills , even at 2.02 APS i can spam infinite bears by just replacing my litany with my -10 /30 zb soj ... people who complain that IAS isnt good is because they do not have the gears required to sustain the mana required
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And finally, for low mp you can have all ias you want, because !@#$ is so easy, it doesn't really matter, you getting sea of mana from health globes and kills. Last remaining challange in this game for pvm is making it work for mp10 (not efficient I know).
Ironically most efficient spec is locust swarm, for low mp, and that also doesn't care about attack speed, base damage counts.


er since you edited this afterwords.. I'll address it in another post..

Upper MP isn't a challenge it's just a gear check it doesn't require any special talents or skills. A challenge would be say building the MOST glass cannon spec that you can and trying to survive upper MP by running around to avoid damage, kitting, and choose specs and skills that require you to actually think about what you are doing and make fast decisions. Anybody with a couple billion in gold (regardless of how they got it) can EASILY just stack the same things everybody does to "defeat the challenge" of MP10.

The MP10 Challenge.

1300-1400 DPS and 160+ CD Skorn w/LS 5.4+ (or a 1h with ls and CD, and a high damage CC, mr, zc reduction mojo)
55k+ VIT
2000+ Int
35+ CC
3500-5000+ Armour
750-800+ AR
Zuni's 3 or 4 Piece with Mana Regen on helm
for rings you can play with SOJ, Litany, Pox, Unity, etc etc.
Passives can be a number of combination of SA, BR, SV, JF, ROE, VQ, TR, or BM

Poof you are now MP10 bomber proof. Challenge complete here is your shopping you list.

PS Locust work amazing in Upper MP for mana return they just keep re-infecting themselves and bringing you back mana. Try it.
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 1/9/2013 3:42 AM PST
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As for locust used for mana return. Problem with mana is, that you run out of mana only in scenario vs elites, especially a rare single elite boss, with 50m+ hp, and there is no globes around, no trash to get mana per kill. Locust can pay for itself only in big crowd where you don't really need any extra mana (at least I don't). But if you do, then you are completely screwed vs high hp elites.
Currently with my level of mana efficiency, I can kill all melee elitepacks within duration of slam dance, enough burst damage and enough mana. Some ranged packs are also killable, if they don't move too much. Some easier packs like scorpions can be killed in literally 5-10s. I mean mp10.
Problem is when you hit really annoying ranged elite, especially a boss, that runs around. If you approach this with spirit barrage it takes literally minutes to kill. Using grasp for 80% slow doesn't really help. Same goes for minions, ranged elites still run away from minions, so this is not a way to lock them down. It really blows how the fact that elite is ranged screws wd killing speed so much.
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As for locust used for mana return. Problem with mana is, that you run out of mana only in scenario vs elites, especially a rare single elite boss, with 50m+ hp, and there is no globes around, no trash to get mana per kill. Locust can pay for itself only in big crowd where you don't really need any extra mana (at least I don't). But if you do, then you are completely screwed vs high hp elites.
Currently with my level of mana efficiency, I can kill all melee elitepacks within duration of slam dance, enough burst damage and enough mana. Some ranged packs are also killable, if they don't move too much. Some easier packs like scorpions can be killed in literally 5-10s. I mean mp10.
Problem is when you hit really annoying ranged elite, especially a boss, that runs around. If you approach this with spirit barrage it takes literally minutes to kill. Using grasp for 80% slow doesn't really help. Same goes for minions, ranged elites still run away from minions, so this is not a way to lock them down. It really blows how the fact that elite is ranged screws wd killing speed so much.


I donnu man it works for me. Could be that I've played this spec quite a bit and it's pretty second nature now, but it does take a little while to get the feel for it.

I get the majority of damage done to the elite packs while other mobs are around so my return is great enough to burst full speed from locust then as the white mobs die GI/Zunis fill me back up to give me another full volley and if that isn't enough (which is only in the rarest of occasions) I still have BR/SA regen from zunis and the normal regen giving me enough to push me over the edge. In the event that I come across the very Rare scenerio say a solo extra health w/e (we are talking VERY rare) with 0 other monsters around and some how it's at full health. I simply throttle back my attacks to keep a steady stream of bears coming at all times but slow enough to let my reduction and my regen balance out. Having a pool sized of 1450+ helps me out a fair bit as well as it allows me to capitalize on GI/Zunis (and GF in normal play) more by giving me a larger reserve so when people with small 900-1000 reserves are maxed I'm still filling up.

Ideally if I could get my hands on a Max Mana + MR Mojo with ZC reduction that would be BIS for me or a weapon with Regen or another Max Mana pool. While what I have works well that extra little bit of regen would ideal just for the few scenarios you lay out (and of course a better soj).
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 1/9/2013 12:46 PM PST
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01/09/2013 03:28 AMPosted by SweetLove
yup like OP has said , IAS is good for WD if u can maintain the mana required for spamming ur skills , even at 2.02 APS i can spam infinite bears by just replacing my litany with my -10 /30 zb soj ... people who complain that IAS isnt good is because they do not have the gears required to sustain the mana required


m8 you got like almost same dps with me. I bet that I can kill packs and farm way too faster than you.

You got 105k, I got 60k hp, you have 400 more armor, I got 50 more resist than you. On paper you seem to have incredible defenses compared to mine. This time I bet you die to packs faster than me.

Why you may ask, It is really easy mechanics, while you are throwing spiders around I will be casting endless bears. Not to mention int buff from GF and cd reduction from GI.

Most of you guys don't (can't) do high mp's here which requires good mana management. MP10 is not so efficient on solo that's a fact, but with proper party you clear everything fast on MP10. And with my low aps I can even use PtV on some setups, which yields to 3.5m-4m bear crits (without SOJ) and I crit most the time with 55cc.
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01/09/2013 03:33 PMPosted by Hasansabbah
And with my low aps I can even use PtV on some setups, which yields to 3.5m-4m bear crits (without SOJ) and I crit most the time with 55cc.


nice! kudos to you. it's nice to see another wd running the same build at high mp.

but damn, i didnt know 1 hand could crit that high. i farm on mp7 and my bear crits are in the 2.5m range when fully buffed and my min/max number is alot higher. guess the addtional 300 int and 60% cd are the reason ur crits are a lot higher. but running just 1 piece PuR, don't you find it too small?
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I play with AS in my build (1H + mojo), i guess it's more of a play style. I can do MP8 on my own without dying in a single key run.
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01/10/2013 06:33 AMPosted by Nerzaa
And with my low aps I can even use PtV on some setups, which yields to 3.5m-4m bear crits (without SOJ) and I crit most the time with 55cc.


nice! kudos to you. it's nice to see another wd running the same build at high mp.

but damn, i didnt know 1 hand could crit that high. i farm on mp7 and my bear crits are in the 2.5m range when fully buffed and my min/max number is alot higher. guess the addtional 300 int and 60% cd are the reason ur crits are a lot higher. but running just 1 piece PuR, don't you find it too small?


Well ofcourse I would love to have more PuR but than I would have to pay a lot more gold to keep these stats and on some items there isn't any free stat rolls left. But the thing is when you play with bears you are always in pickup range for GI so it doesn't effect the efficiency that much.

About crits, they are with GF/SH/BBV/PTV + Guiding Light/Conviction. Got some new items recently which increased my dps a lot and I'm gonna experiment MP10 with bears+Provoke the pack so I guess I will be seeing more crits.
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Well ofcourse I would love to have more PuR but than I would have to pay a lot more gold to keep these stats and on some items there isn't any free stat rolls left. But the thing is when you play with bears you are always in pickup range for GI so it doesn't effect the efficiency that much.About crits, they are with GF/SH/BBV/PTV + Guiding Light/Conviction. Got some new items recently which increased my dps a lot and I'm gonna experiment MP10 with bears+Provoke the pack so I guess I will be seeing more crits.


good to know. i will try running with one less pur piece.

just out of curiosity, what's ur bear crits with just gf/sh?
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Oh god, for all the new comers--I'm going to have to debunk Brahm so none of you fresh of the boat get confused as hell

01/09/2013 12:49 AMPosted by Brahm
IAS is fine if you know how to throttle your attacks, and manage your mana. Same people always ranting how it breaks there builds don't know how setup there WD's correctly or they focus in on a few very acute scenarios that make up the minority of your game play.


This is Brahm, everything he says is harmless--however, if you choose to follow his advice you will be crippling yourself. He throws in the term "throttle" to make it seem like there's a technique to managing mana off a high end attack speed with your MOUSE. YET THAT DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF YOUR DPS OFF ATTACK SPEED IF YOU ARE NOT DOING DAMAGE.

BURST DAMAGE =/= DAMAGE ALL THE TIME
DAMAGE NOT ALL THE TIME =/= NOT DPS

According to his statement above, people ranting on how IAS breaks builds don't know how to "set up their WD correctly, or focus on a few very acute scenario." So are the seasoned vets who ran into mana problems and declared that IAS breaks builds are also WDs don't know how to set up skills?

Need I remind the community that Brahm is the one who thought Grave injustice, Gruesome feast, and mana returning locusts would help in high MP levels?! He also thought that Grave injustive and gruesome feast would be nerfed because he thought it was great in his build when it actually did what it was intended to do! He talks about acute scenarios because everyone asked him "what happens when there's only one monster around, or one elite around? or a mob that doesn't follow" and he still---to this day---hasn't answered the question. Instead, he rants about some off topic to avoid the situation.

01/09/2013 12:49 AMPosted by Brahm
The end goal for a WD should to stack as much simultaneous damage as possible you do that with a combination of quick large damaging attacks, CC's, and stacking DOTs.


Please start TELLING everyone that it is YOUR OPINION that the end goal for a WD should _______, that it is YOUR OPINION that high MPs should only be played as glass cannon. It almost seems like you are declaring facts with your statements.

PS Locust work amazing in Upper MP for mana return they just keep re-infecting themselves and bringing you back mana. Try it.


This does not work. Proven over and over. It's only the best for Brahm. Only Brahm.
Edited by Lmaoonadee#1981 on 1/10/2013 2:48 PM PST
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Oh god, for all the new comers--I'm going to have to debunk Brahm so none of you fresh of the boat get confused as hell

IAS is fine if you know how to throttle your attacks, and manage your mana. Same people always ranting how it breaks there builds don't know how setup there WD's correctly or they focus in on a few very acute scenarios that make up the minority of your game play.


This is Brahm, everything he says is harmless--however, if you choose to follow his advice you will be crippling yourself. He throws in the term "throttle" to make it seem like there's a technique to managing mana off a high end attack speed with your MOUSE. YET THAT DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF YOUR DPS OFF ATTACK SPEED IF YOU ARE NOT DOING DAMAGE.

BURST DAMAGE =/= DAMAGE ALL THE TIME
DAMAGE NOT ALL THE TIME =/= NOT DPS



What a great explanation I salute you bro
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01/09/2013 03:33 PMPosted by Hasansabbah
Most of you guys don't (can't) do high mp's here which requires good mana management. MP10 is not so efficient on solo that's a fact, but with proper party you clear everything fast on MP10. And with my low aps I can even use PtV on some setups, which yields to 3.5m-4m bear crits (without SOJ) and I crit most the time with 55cc.


When fully buffed I can also hit +3m crits while constantly spamming bears. At the end of the day WD is all about getting the most damage from your mana. IAS doesn't help in this regard. Almost every WD will have at least 2 ias items (Zuni boots/Innas/Lacuni), but it is never a good idea to get more. At the end of the day, you have to pay a lot to include ias on a good item.

The best example I can give is with gloves, where many people assume a trifecta is best.

For the most powerful bears hit, you want gloves with 299 intel, 10%cc, and 50%CD. You'll be paying a few hundred million, if not more, to get near these perfect stats. Include ias on that item and you are paying billions. It is not really possible to get a perfect trifecta with +290 intel...so what do most people do? They get ias at the cost of intel/cc/cd. Comparable trifectas gloves might be 9%ias, 230 intel, 8%cc, 42% CD. All this does is reduces your damage per bear, but increases the rate of casting. In no way is this a good thing.

As Hasansabbah said, permanent bear spam is quite easy with low attack speed, especially with -ZB items. I have the same setup as he does, as mana is not an issue on mp10. On mp8-9 I can even drop some mana regen passives in place of additional damage, while still spamming bears constantly. Kiting and waiting for mana to regenerate necessarily means not doing serious damage (DoT doesn't count when compared to bears).

BURST DAMAGE =/= DAMAGE ALL THE TIME
DAMAGE NOT ALL THE TIME =/= NOT DPS


That's the simple truth right there.
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01/10/2013 07:44 AMPosted by Hasansabbah
I'm gonna experiment MP10 with bears+Provoke the pack so I guess I will be seeing more crits.


Been tossing around the idea of working in dogs/sacrifice too, as it is pretty fun. I don't want to sacrifice my DPS/EHP stats to work in dog cooldown though, and I don't like the idea of having a 15 second "dead time" to two of my active skills. Plus, I like the utility of the skill layout that I have. Really cool idea, and let me know how it works for you.
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I built my WD purely for mp0 farming and AS is great for that. However if I do higher MP's i have to switch gear due to mana/survivability issues. As this whole game is designed, you choose what you need for each level and what your playing. This increases the need for items which increases the AH. Blizz = Profit. This is a buisness afterall.

Wait till PvP comes out. The whole game will be different.

So to say any stat is useless imo is absurd.
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Oh god, for all the new comers--I'm going to have to debunk Brahm so none of you fresh of the boat get confused as hell

IAS is fine if you know how to throttle your attacks, and manage your mana. Same people always ranting how it breaks there builds don't know how setup there WD's correctly or they focus in on a few very acute scenarios that make up the minority of your game play.


This is Brahm, everything he says is harmless--however, if you choose to follow his advice you will be crippling yourself. He throws in the term "throttle" to make it seem like there's a technique to managing mana off a high end attack speed with your MOUSE. YET THAT DEFEATS THE PURPOSE OF YOUR DPS OFF ATTACK SPEED IF YOU ARE NOT DOING DAMAGE.

BURST DAMAGE =/= DAMAGE ALL THE TIME
DAMAGE NOT ALL THE TIME =/= NOT DPS

According to his statement above, people ranting on how IAS breaks builds don't know how to "set up their WD correctly, or focus on a few very acute scenario." So are the seasoned vets who ran into mana problems and declared that IAS breaks builds are also WDs don't know how to set up skills?

Need I remind the community that Brahm is the one who thought Grave injustice, Gruesome feast, and mana returning locusts would help in high MP levels?! He also thought that Grave injustive and gruesome feast would be nerfed because he thought it was great in his build when it actually did what it was intended to do! He talks about acute scenarios because everyone asked him "what happens when there's only one monster around, or one elite around? or a mob that doesn't follow" and he still---to this day---hasn't answered the question. Instead, he rants about some off topic to avoid the situation.

The end goal for a WD should to stack as much simultaneous damage as possible you do that with a combination of quick large damaging attacks, CC's, and stacking DOTs.


Please start TELLING everyone that it is YOUR OPINION that the end goal for a WD should _______, that it is YOUR OPINION that high MPs should only be played as glass cannon. It almost seems like you are declaring facts with your statements.

PS Locust work amazing in Upper MP for mana return they just keep re-infecting themselves and bringing you back mana. Try it.


This does not work. Proven over and over. It's only the best for Brahm. Only Brahm.


This guy is straight up wrong, lying (and/or taking things out of context) about what I've said, and trolling... ...again. Stop hounding me across the forums and don't put words into my mouth that I didn't say.

Locust work VERY well for upper MP, (or for all MP for that matter). I've posted videos of it, and have played with many others that have used similar specs. You have a very poor understanding of in game mechanics and like to look at things from acute point of views just to argue on the forum. The more you continue to act as you have above the more you show your hand. It's really just getting ridiculous at this point.

Stacking simultaneous damage has NOTHING to do with Glass Canon Specs.

Just let it go man. You clearly don't understand what I mean by burst damage regardless of how many times I've explained it, nor the context of which I'm stating AS should and can be used to benefit a WD.Most everybody else gets it. I've taken the time to answer all your questions in the past I'm not going to keep rehashing this again and again as all it boils down to at this point is giving you more ammo to twist for your silly little games. It's obvious you don't want to understand. This game is not static we play in dynamic situations if you want to play in a world of only GHOM tests then yes throttling makes no sense but in actual game play well that's a different story.

If you think my suggestions will cripple you, you are a fool. Come play with me and find out for yourself. I openly offer that to anybody. These days my gear is very subpar as I haven't regeared since 1.04 but I can still hang with any WD and to happy play with anybody and give them a demo first hand.

So please don't start with the personal attacks, trolling, and so on like you do every time you get bored and see a post of mine. You have your opinion I have mine. I don't go around hounding your posts so show a little maturity and respect for your fellow witch doctor and stop hounding me...
Edited by Brahm#1943 on 1/11/2013 10:30 AM PST
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