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@Genesis, thanks for the guide. Here's my build that's partly based on your guide:
Anyone care to guess how much I'd spent on it?
Also, at the moment I'm lost as to where my next upgrade should be. Anyone can help?
@Bankai, I find the website d3up.com (as pointed out by Genesis) useful in analyzing the feasibility of a build without committing to spending tons of gold to find out. You can simulate what the DPS & EHP would look like if you had a high DPS windforce.
That's a good option. Even a cheap leg nats set is pricey though, so I'd only get it if you REALLY want to go hardcore at speeding up your runs. With my current gear modified for strafe, I'm pulling off constant 70m exp/hour runs. Assuming those 88m/h and 100m/h runs TianZi did are his best rates, the gains aren't groundbreaking. I'm pretty sure his legacy set is pretty pricey, and he did mention that his new nats set was pretty cheap. What I'm trying to say is that new nats won't gimp your exp gains quite as much as your skill. He's much better at strafe than I am as of now, so once your gear reaches a certain point, the rest comes down to practice I think.
Yeah, with legacy nats you don't get the benefit of leorics. The reason his rates are better is because he is able to clear the runs faster than a new nats build can. That basically means that he is getting a greater number of kills per hour than the new nats build which results in more exp per hour (even after you factor in leorics). This is based on his runs though; I can't speak from personal experience in the strafing department with legacy nats.
A big thing about strafe is DPS. If you can get enough DPS with a legacy set, it will probably be more efficient. If you can't get the DPS with legacy, it might even out with new nats (or even gimp you). You definitely want a helm with a socket (for the ruby), and getting a helm with CC and a socket costs quite a bit. Similarly, a good ring with CC or CD (CC is preferred) is going to run you up a lot. The boots and chest tend to be expensive if you want good DPS and eHP at the same time. I would do some checking around the AH to see what decent enough gear will cost you. That alone might be enough to determine what set you will choose to pursue.
For the DW question, I don't have a guide on it and don't really know of a guide. I can give you the basics though. The benefit of DW (or using a single hand crossbow) comes in the form of your high attack speed which results in increased resource generation. Your hatred and disc regen (through night stalker procs) will help fuel skills like gloom and spike traps. You also have a different archery bonus of 10% CC. This is great as it gives you the option to either have very high CC by gearing as I suggest or allows you to take some pressure off of CC and stack up some more AS or CD. The debate between DW vs. calamity and DML is endless. DW gives you more CD (a substantial amount of up to 200%), but reduces your CC and AS. The DW bonus gives you 15% AS while a DML can give you up to 20%. Most high end DHs use a calamity and DML for this reason. Another bonus of choosing to use a calamity (which is basically your only option for hand crossbows, besides danetta's spite for DW) is that you have a MFD bonus that really helps increase your damage. Another key advantage to the fast attack speed is that you can take advantage of stunning skills, namely bola - thundersomething. The fast attack speed allows you to permastun your primary target (note that it's only your primary target, not the AoE effect). This really simplifies life in uber fights.
Hopefully that helps some bit about DW. Search the forums for other topics covering this (or ask me about some specifics) if this didn't really do it for you!
Looks good! The biggest thing I would suggest for you is to get a better bow. While yours has nice dex and of course good CD being a 2 soc, it's not offering you the DPS that a high damage 1 soc would. Consider doing some checking and simulating with some high damage 1 soc manticores. I decided to take a 1260 1 soc over my old 1100 DPS 2 soc (both dex rolls) back in the day. My DPS jumped up dramatically, so I later bought a 1374 DPS 1 soc which I used until I got my current bow.
Other than that, I would see what you can do to boost your vit. Your pants and mempo could both have some vit on them. You may also want to check out some gloves that have a second roll on them, like CD. That is a huge source of DPS that you should take advantage of.
Edited by Genesis#1518 on 1/15/2013 1:17 PM PST
First I want to say thank you for your guidance. I tried to follow your build advice as faithfully as possible (between good/high end) where my budget would allow. Would you mind having a look at my build to see if I perhaps made a misstep or where the build could be improved either in DPS or eHP? I tried to balance between DPS and eHP as much as I could. Again, thank you for the guidance.
Hi again! I was wondering if you had a suggestion on what I should upgrade next. I just spent 5mil on my amulet, and I have about 3mil now to spend. I'm so lost with this stuff haha. I would like to get over 100k dps. I did manage to get more vitality and resists, like you suggested! And I am working on getting 40% cc. I decided to go back to the strongarms, and got better ones than I had before. Right now I am unsure of what I should upgrade next with my 3mil, or if I should wait. I am sad to say I ended up ditching the Inna's, but I was able to get a way better amulet with the gold, haha.
ok, try this again, the graph did'nt turn out . I did a comparison of my old gear and the gear you had plus the manticore and my calamity.
My damage was 59k, 201% crit damage and life @ 21k,(dont know how I surrived).
Your gear and the manticore has me at 61k damage,with 323% crit damage with 77k life.
Now with the calamity, this comes out at 66k damage,and 255% crit damage with 69k life.
Got it sorted, I realy still need life.
Thank you for all your help. You are an asset to the DH forum
Edited by BlackAdder#1128 on 1/16/2013 11:46 AM PST
8 Undead Rogue
Love this guide, just recently hit 60 and been looking to get some farming done. Currently have about 600k after doing some upgrades to my gear, but im not sure after looking here that i took a good direction on it all, any comments are appreciated for sure. Even if you dont find the time to look, keep up the great work here!
I'm pleased to see you took some things away from it. Your build looks great! Your eHP is awesome (583k). There are only two pieces that I would personally change, but the truth is that you really nailed it, in my opinion. You got difectas in places where you should get difectas, tons of vit on everything (FINALLY someone who gets it!). The one thing I would change are your gloves, but that's even debatable and more up to personal preference. I would go for rares that have dex, vit, AR, CC and CD. You don't have AR or CC, but rather stacked a ton of dex and have AS (and armour). I feel that having higher CC might benefit you in maintaing and regenerating disc through night stalker. Having said that, shooting more shots per second also (indirectly) improves the effectiveness of night stalker. As I said before, this is a different approach to gloves than mine but isn't a bad one! You really nailed it.
The next thing I would work on is to get some CC on your nats ring. If you can get one just like yours except with CC, that would be awesome. As for your bow, you're definitely on the right track. The vit on there is a really nice bonus, but you could get a bunch more DPS if you started looking into 1350 DPS 1 socs with dex. That's what I did, but they definitely weren't this expensive! When I sold my 1374 DPS one with dex, I got about 100m for it. Those sorts of bows are sitting in the 200m+ realm right now, so maybe just ignore that comment… While it is probably the most cost effective upgrade for you, I'm not sure if you're prepared to sink that much into a bow. If you want to go big with a bow, you might be better off with a lower damage 2 soc in that price range. You may get more bang for your buck that way, or maybe not. Simulate both if you're looking. In general, I would just say that you should try to boost your CC a little bit. Other than that (and the other upgrades I mentioned), you're basically stuck with increasing your dex. You could probably get another 30k DPS out of your dex without going too crazy. I managed to get up to 3200 in my old build.
It's too bad you dropped the inna's! It's such a good piece. Oh well. If you want to really work on your survival (eHP), dropping your belt for a rare belt would be a good move. The only thing going for your current belt is the high dex and 1% CC, but that isn't too significant. I would get a rare belt with similar dex, high vit and high resists. That will basically be a big eHP boost for you at a small DPS loss. Your chest is really holding you back. You don't have any sockets there, so you're losing at least 120 dex there. While the resists are nice, I don't feel that it compensates enough for the vit and dex loss. Unfortunately, you need that piece to keep your MS at 24 without inna's.
The honest truth is that you can only go so far without getting into set items (unless you spend ungodly amounts of gold and time thinking about workarounds).
Those sound like good changes! I wouldn't worry so much about life right now. You've got TONS to be honest. I'm not sure if you're familiar with diabloprogress, but with that new gear you're doing better than you might think. Your life is actually in the top 500 for ALL DHs on the server! Your eHP is almost 500k which is AWESOME. My old build had about that and could do high MP pretty easily. Right now you need some DPS, which is where I (apparently) slacked a bit on when I made that build. Try to get some more dex and consider dropping a little CC and/or CD for attack speed. Improving that will indirectly improve your survival by increasing your night stalker procs/second. Hope you have fun with the new gear!
Thanks! I'm actually so happy that people are finding this useful. It would be brutal if I did all that work to hear that it was garbage haha.
I'll definitely have a look at your gear, but you've posted on your WoW profile. Either edit your post with your diablo profile link or repost under your diablo profile so I can see!
Okay. Yeah, I know that armor isn't very good. I suppose movement speed isn't that important. It's a shame that the only way to get high dps is by getting the same legendary items everyone seems to be wearing. Inna's 2 set with nats and vile ward, and a mempo, and manticore with dead man's legacy. There's seriously no other way beside that without spending billions? Sad :(
Thanks again for helping; it's great what you're doing for everyone here. I hope you have a wonderful morning/afternoon/evening/night!
Movement speed is pretty important to me. When I play with the intent of paragon levelling, I want to do it as efficiently as possible, but that's just me. I agree, it is unfortunate that good choices are limited. It might be possible to get better DPS with rares, but you're going to need a REALLY good bow (probably a manticore) and will have to get high end everything. The set bonuses from nat's and inna's makes it hard to compete with anything else. Having a 3 piece nat's set and 2 piece inna's gives you a 320 dex bonus, 8-9% attack speed, 9% CC, 8-9% holy damage bonus and super easy max movement speed, and that's excluding the potential of nats ring. If visual appeal is an issue for you, you could consider getting 2 piece inna's, just with pants and chest (all blue). That *might* help you meet your visual appeal criteria without gimping you. You could use a rare belt in place, then get nats boots and a cheap nats ring for the 2 piece bonus. While a mempo would be ideal, you could do with a good rare I suppose. The shoulders are totally free though. Vile ward is definitely BiS, but the truth of it (which many people don't see) is that you can get rares that give better stats for less money if you are at the lower end of the price spectrum. You can get the same resists, the same vit (or higher even) and up to 200 dex in rare shoulders as vile wards can. You just can't beat a DML for quivers though.
So to answer your question, kindasorta. You can avoid some of the commonly used items (albeit, not many) without spending billions, but there are some that you will just need to have to get past a certain point.
Your vit looks quite good, and your resists are reasonable for your level, so I would work on your DPS some more. You're missing some vital stats on your ammy (CD and CC). Your bow also has pretty low damage and no socket, which is also limiting your DPS. Take a read of the budget build section of the guide. It should help point out areas that I would work on. Some things are worth keeping though! If you have any specific questions, come back and post; I'll see what I can do.
I did do some upgrades tonight, got better gloves and shoulders. and i will for sure be reading the budget guide again, and do some specific searches to see if i missed anything that will be an upgrade in my price range, just seems that everything good now is over 1m per item, and untill i get a lucky drop that just aint happening :)
Anyway, ty again for looking, and im working on your advice, just gonna take some time.
Haha yeah, I was actually just looking for Nats boots and ring again x_x I waste so much goooold haha. I already had those and sold em. As for Inna's, yeah I might just bite the bullet and re-buy the pants again, probably for use with the belt. Then get better armor. I do have a pretty good ammy now so I'm not too bummed about selling my inna's pants. I agree about the shoulders; I have seen rares just as good, if not better, for way cheaper. I really hope to someday find an awesome bow that isn't manticore; I just don't like crossbows :x
They shouldn't have let us dye equipment and stuff if we weren't supposed to care about what our character looked like!! lol. I wonder if they will ever let us at least vanish the legendaries instead of dye them.
Thanks again for the thorough information. It helps so much!
Hey, I am wondering, which one of the belts would bring me closer to my 200k unbuffed goal? Witching Hour or Innas? I know for certain with Inna, I lose a LOT of my eHP, w/ Witching Hour it wouldn't be as bad. What exactly would I need to do to get to my 200k goal. Can you like draw out some adds for me so I know what to look for?
I tried ball lightning way back when I first could use it and meh good damage but too slow. But since you have been recommending it to some, thought I would give it another try. I was useing bola thunder and RF high velocity. Wow what a boost ball is. Had to change play style a little. sped game a ton. Wish I could buy you a couple of Kingsport ales in thanks. Keep up the good work. Cheers!
That looks much better! I don't remember your stats exactly, but I seem to recall that your DPS was lower and eHP WAY lower. You have 363k eHP right now which is great! At this point, I would suggest trying to get your DPS even higher. Try boosting your CC up a bit more and definitely get your CD up higher. Attack speed wouldn't hurt, but in any of my builds using set items, their guarenteed AS rolls should be enough for a manticore user.
Sounds like a good plan to me! Good luck.
That's a hard question to answer. With an unlimited budget, WH will get you more DPS and certainly more eHP. Inna's will get you there for much less, but at the cost of some eHP. I'll go simulate a couple builds for you and see what I see.
For simplicity, I put my WH on your build. I checked the AH and found one for 69m (see picture). It will give you slightly more DPS than my belt does, but gives less eHP (by about 8.5k unbuffed, 15.6k with dodge). It still gives you some eHP though and gets you to 197.8k DPS. !@#$ING CLOSE!
For inna's, I've also put an old one of mine on it. It doesn't have vit, so to see the eHP changes, simulate the vit. The first picture is a similar price to the WH (61m). It gives you 205.5k DPS. In fact, this particular belt gives you more eHP (both unbuffed and with dodge). I found another one just incase that's too much. The second one is 27m and has lower stats, but not low enough to drop it as a consideration. It gives you slightly more DPS than the previous one and costs you about 5-9k eHP compared to the previous one.
(Don't forget to simulate the vitality yourself)
If it was my decision, I would go for the last belt I showed you. It lets you hit your DPS target without sacrificing much of your eHP, and also doesn't cost too much. Your current eHP without dodge is 298k, and with dodge it is 554k. With this new belt, it will become 265k and 506k, respectively. You're gaining about 30k DPS with this move and losing 30k/50k eHP. To be honest, this is a no brainer. Usually these sorts of DPS gains cost FAR more than that in terms of eHP (or will cost substantially more than 27m). If I could trade 50k eHP for 30k DPS, I'd take it in a heartbeat. The fact that your eHP is already quite good further pushes me to push you into that decision. If you were at 200k eHP, I would probably caution you, but 500k is awesome.
I'm glad it worked out! I always liked BL as my backup, never fail AoE skill. If you want some real fun (and faster clear speeds), give strafe a shot. I wasn't too sure about it at first, but once you get the right items for it and the strategy down, it's tons of fun.
Edited by Genesis#1518 on 1/17/2013 6:03 PM PST
@Genesis - Thank you very much for the guide. I wish I had read it before I started my dh. I stumbled up to 60 using hungering arrow and multishot mostly, and dex gear I had saved from building a monk. At 60 I put on my better monk gear and sprung for a manticore and a DML. Then I looked at the skills the top dh's in dp were using, and it was not all like mine. So I shifted and now have a set of new skills. At MP1 I just use HA most of the time, throw down some spike traps if its a crowd, and use marked for death if its a major elite. I don't really understand shadow power and preparation. Any advise would be much appreciated.
I used the same skills when I made my way to 60. You can basically use whatever you want at that point, but beyond 60 is where you're going to want some refinement. Your gear looks pretty good so far. Some things I would change, others definitely not. I have no clue what your budget is, but looking at your gear, I'll ballpark some upgrades.
I would change out your helm for a high dex mempo with vit. If you want to really invest, get a CC mempo, but those are getting to be stupidly expensive for minimal gains (and I don't think you're quite at that point yet). Ideally, you want your shoulders to have high dex and vit. Your ammy is awesome actually, which is rare to see in those. Must have traded your left one for it! Ideally, you want your chest to have way more vit. My inna's chest has 260 vit, so see if you can get into the 200s. That shouldn't be too expensive, but it will really help. Your gloves are awesome for DPS, but if you ever want to put more emphasis on eHP, get AR on there and boost your vit a bit. You could probably get another 100 dex out of your bracers too, but they are pretty good for now. I would also suggest you trade out your boots for either high dex nats boots or ones like mine. Finish off the two piece set bonus by replacing your zodiac ring with a nats reflection. Ideally you want CC on there with average damage, but even just high dex/average damage would do the trick. The biggest thing out of that is the 2 piece set bonus, which is 7% CC if you didn't know. That's huge for DHs. Everything else is great! Your DML is actually making me pretty jealous haha.
As for your question about Shadow Power and Preparation, here's why. Shadow Power - Gloom is your life saver. Any time that you take damage or come across a tough elite pack (namely, reflect packs), you're going to need that. It is the only real source of healing that DHs can rely on, so definitely take advantage of that. Preparation is used for when you run out of disc. Again, that's usually used for when !@#$ hits the fan in elite fights. Discipline is key to your survival and efficiency, and since neither you nor I use legacy nats (though I'm regretting selling my set with the current prices...), we sometimes need a little extra boost. I see you are using the punishment rune though. That's not really what I would use it for. Discipline is going to be the limiting factor almost all the time. If you're finding yourself running out of hatred, I would suggest trading out MFD for bat companion. That's what I do, as well as many other DHs. Another thing you might want to try instead of spike traps (for low MP, which I assume you are doing with that setup) is to use elemental arrow - ball lightening. It has a huge AoE and also hits twice. If you're low on disc and you come across a decent sized room of mobs, a couple shots of BL will probably fill it up with all the night stalker procs.
If you have any other questions, feel free to come on back!
Edited by Genesis#1518 on 1/17/2013 10:11 PM PST
Not exactly build advice but I need some opinions.
I'm planning to buy a better nat's ring, i'm definitely going for all resistance.
But as a calamity user:
1) Should i look for xx-xx damage, minimum damage or maximum damage? I know +%elemental damage gives a huge boost to black damage so which is the stats I should look for?
2) Crit damage or critical chance? cc is insanely expensive though.
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