Diablo® III

Skills that lie to you.

01/11/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Grimiku
Thanks for taking the time to write this up. We agree that there’s not a lot of visibility in the game into how proc coefficients work and integrate with item affixes, and we’ve discussed possible ways to improve that. However, I wouldn’t say that they should simply be removed from the game. Proc builds with proper gear can be pretty awesome, but (as the OP noted) for balancing reasons it’s very important to have a scaling proc coefficient.


An easy fix would be to introduce universal proc coefficients using three basic skill archetypes:

Single target = 1.0
AoE = 0.5
Damage Over Time = 0.33 per tick


Rune abilities can change the coefficient if it changes the skills type or if it splits the damage; the coefficient for Magic Missile with {Split} would be 0.33 per missile.

Using a Wizard as an example:

Single target: Attacks that hit one enemy
Magic Missile, Ray of Frost, Storm Armor

AoE: Any type of attack that can hit everything in a line, a cone, or at a point in space once
Shock Pulse, Spectral Blade, Electrocute, Arcane Orb, Wave of Force, Meteor, Explosive Blast

Damage over time: Any channeled ability or any fire and forget ability that deals damage for a period of time once used.
Arcane Torrent, Disintegrate, Energy Twister, Hydra, Blizzard

Once Universal proc coefficients are in place, AoE and DoT skill descriptions can be updated with a blurb like "On hit effects are 50%/67% less likely to activate."

You can then fiddle with the % chance of each individual proc ability instead of trying to balance every single skill's proc coefficient. You can go even further in your attempt at making the game descriptions and mechanics less complicated for the player to figure out by allowing proc effects to work on all attacks and not just critical hits. A critical hit is already a chance, and a chance of a chance is not a great mechanic. So, if the average critical hit chance of a Wizard at level 60 is 40%, and the average proc coefficient across all skills is .2, something like Critical Mass would be changed to:

"Whenever you deal damage you have an 10% chance to reduce the cooldowns of all your spells by 1 second."

Thus, assuming no rune effects are applied:

Magic Missile = 10% chance to trigger Critical Mass
Arcane Orb = 5% chance to trigger Critical Mass per target hit
Disintegrate = 3.33% chance to trigger Critical Mass every time it deals damage

Because this would scale absurdly well with Attack speed, you could set a very minor cooldown for each proc effect to further balance it.

"Whenever you deal damage you have an 10% chance to reduce the cooldowns of all your spells by 1 second. This effect can only trigger once per second."
Edited by Tidehorn#1426 on 1/12/2013 8:57 PM PST
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is there an official list of the proc % for each skill?
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Posts: 277
i AGREE. the game should ALWAYS be showing us accurate numbers. this is probably the biggest thing i dislike about d3.

also, if anything gets changed while playing Inferno, the Inferno numbers should be shown to us too.
Edited by NoobAttack#1382 on 1/12/2013 8:56 PM PST
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Posts: 156
01/12/2013 08:33 PMPosted by Tidehorn
Thanks for taking the time to write this up. We agree that there’s not a lot of visibility in the game into how proc coefficients work and integrate with item affixes, and we’ve discussed possible ways to improve that. However, I wouldn’t say that they should simply be removed from the game. Proc builds with proper gear can be pretty awesome, but (as the OP noted) for balancing reasons it’s very important to have a scaling proc coefficient.


An easy fix would be to introduce universal proc coefficients using three basic skill archetypes:

Single target = 1.0
AoE = 0.5
Damage Over Time = 0.33 per tick


Rune abilities can change the coefficient if it changes the skills type or if it splits the damage; the coefficient for Magic Missile with {Split} would be 0.33 per missile.

Using a Wizard as an example:

Single target: Attacks that hit one enemy
Magic Missile, Ray of Frost, Storm Armor

AoE: Any type of attack that can hit everything in a line, a cone, or at a point in space once
Shock Pulse, Spectral Blade, Electrocute, Arcane Orb, Wave of Force, Meteor, Explosive Blast

Damage over time: Any channeled ability or any fire and forget ability that deals damage for a period of time once used.
Arcane Torrent, Disintegrate, Energy Twister, Hydra, Blizzard

Once Universal proc coefficients are in place, AoE and DoT skill descriptions can be updated with a blurb like "On hit effects are 50%/67% less likely to activate."

You can then fiddle with the % chance of each individual proc ability instead of trying to balance every single skill's proc coefficient. You can go even further in your attempt at making the game descriptions and mechanics less complicated for the player to figure out by allowing proc effects to work on all attacks and not just critical hits. A critical hit is already a chance, and a chance of a chance is not a great mechanic. So, if the average critical hit chance of a Wizard at level 60 is 40%, and the average proc coefficient across all skills is .2, something like Critical Mass would be changed to:

"Whenever you deal damage you have an 10% chance to reduce the cooldowns of all your spells by 1 second."

Thus, assuming no rune effects are applied:

Magic Missile = 10% chance to trigger Critical Mass
Arcane Orb = 5% chance to trigger Critical Mass per target hit
Disintegrate = 3.33% chance to trigger Critical Mass every time it deals damage

Because this would scale absurdly well with Attack speed, you could set a very minor cooldown for each proc effect to further balance it.

"Whenever you deal damage you have an 10% chance to reduce the cooldowns of all your spells by 1 second. This effect can only trigger once per second."


#1 This game is currently like that I believe. Fast attacks (living lightning, plague of toad) usually proc for 0.165-0.200. Attacks that are not too fast but do hit often or hit multiple targets or have huge huge hits (hammer of the ancients, explosive bolts) proc around 0.500-0.750. Crappy single target skills (missle magic, bash, poison dart, impale) go from 0.800-2.00. poison dart is the only attack that actually doubles the procs in this game I think.

#2 I do not want proc coefficients in this game and lowering all proc % or find a better way to "display" that each skill in the game procs differently. For example the living lightning discription can say this "Conjure a being of lightning that drifts forward, electrocuting nearby enemies for 37% weapon damage as Lightning. Living lightning has 80% reduced chance to procs". They can word it better, but this would be a way to tell people that they are not getting full % on procs.
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Posts: 156
Does'nt blizzard make games to be noob friendly? that's why they nerf stuff to be really easy and dumb stuff down that is otherwise complicated in other games? but they don't want to include information like proc.cofs that are very important because blizzard thinks it is too complicated for the casual gamer? Basicly saying you are all stupid folks.
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All I know is proc.
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I dunno how things were done in D2, didnt play ARPGs like a maniac back then. But I know how things are done in Path of exile, I can pick up a calculator and calculate my dream build. No tricks, no hidden numbers. Everything is right in front of you. If a skill affix says it gives you 5%, you are getting the full 5%.

I do like D3. I have all 5 lvl 60s, I love the fluid/flasshy combat. however, i can't make a build with my favorite flashy skills no matter how hard I try. Sure whatever I use for MP0 will work, but I can't make any build I like for key hunting, MP5+.

I want to play both D3 and path of exile. however D3 has frustrated me more than it has been fun. Why should I play a frustrating game? do you not care about me jay wilson?


lol I don't care about you . Go play your kiddy game where you can build your perfect build with ease.


Why hasn't this troll been banned and castrated yet??

Seriously!?!

I've been gone for months, and this idiot is still here spreading bad ideas, trolling the developers and actual fans of the Diablo series and making fun of people with day jobs??
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01/11/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Grimiku
Thanks for taking the time to write this up. We agree that there’s not a lot of visibility in the game into how proc coefficients work and integrate with item affixes, and we’ve discussed possible ways to improve that. However, I wouldn’t say that they should simply be removed from the game. Proc builds with proper gear can be pretty awesome, but (as the OP noted) for balancing reasons it’s very important to have a scaling proc coefficient.


That is why people consider this game a failure, because the new team thinks diablo games need the be balanced. None of you have any idea what this game is supposed to be so you just turn it into wow.
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That is why people consider this game a failure, because the new team thinks diablo games need the be balanced. None of you have any idea what this game is supposed to be so you just turn it into wow.


...

Balance is important. I think you have no idea what you're talking about. Playing godmode is only fun for about an hour. Actual challenging gameplay and a diversity of builds(created through balance) is what makes the game fun.

Anyways +1 to this topic. Procs should not be so hidden. There should be a way in the actual game to determine proc rates of skills.
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Yet another thread, one of many thousands, asking to cheat, to have a leg up on others because the OP's remember playing modded Diablo as a pre-teens. New game, new day, welcome to the gaming industry in 2013. Gone are the days of PK'ing, griefing, and stealing to lockdown the game world for the benefit of a small few. So sad for you.
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Posts: 428
01/20/2013 03:13 PMPosted by Aphid
Yet another thread, one of many thousands, asking to cheat, to have a leg up on others because the OP's remember playing modded Diablo as a pre-teens. New game, new day, welcome to the gaming industry in 2013. Gone are the days of PK'ing, griefing, and stealing to lockdown the game world for the benefit of a small few. So sad for you.


I don't know if you read anything in this thread but it was about transparency between the numbers you're shown and the numbers that are actually happening.
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put proc coeffienct in the skills tooltip.
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01/11/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Grimiku
Thanks for taking the time to write this up. We agree that there’s not a lot of visibility in the game into how proc coefficients work and integrate with item affixes, and we’ve discussed possible ways to improve that. However, I wouldn’t say that they should simply be removed from the game. Proc builds with proper gear can be pretty awesome, but (as the OP noted) for balancing reasons it’s very important to have a scaling proc coefficient.


Proc builds can be pretty awesome? Like the WD proc build that you nerfed into oblivion once people appeared to be having fun?

I think we all agree that there should be an in-game solution for managing and understanding proc coefficients. But how long would it take you to add a page to this website that had a chart showing proc coefficients? You know, the kind of thing I can find if I google and go to some third party site. How long would it take? An hour? Half a day? A day?
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On top of procs, you also have to worry about "ticks." Some skills attack faster than others, even though your attack speed is the same for both.

And while you're at it, fix the life steal. It's just plain misleading. You would be amazed with the amount of people complaining their IK belts are not working properly.
Edited by TheFunGun21#1392 on 1/20/2013 4:12 PM PST
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First of all, best luck to Jay Wilson on whatever you will be working in the future.

Now, back to reality, try take Diablo 3 experience as one you will never forget that "gamer/consumer dictate what is fun", not you. Devs can make game in anyway they prefer, but we consumer will decide whether the game is worth continue playing.

Too many good arguments have been brought up already, but as for my own experience, what made Diablo 2 fun was that I don't need to have super gear to maw down mob like butter (some unique i have major issue, b/c i had no resist at all lol), and ww-barb like a boss b/c your hp barely drop is fun as well. Not everyone wanna work hard like a Heroic-Raid in WoW when they log on Diablo-game.

When D2 just came out, majority barb --> ww, amazon --> multi shot, necro - Iron Maiden+blood golem/no skeleton, sorc - frozen orb, paladin - zeal/charge or infamous hammer din. I didn't see the Devs busy trying to fix it, nor has the community raged over it. We as players do enjoy killing mob fast and feel powerful. The boss/special unique still take forever to kill in a 8-player game though, if anyone still remember Izual and when your game room doesn't have a sorc with static or other class with crazy gear, haha.
Edited by JohnnyC#1805 on 1/20/2013 4:14 PM PST
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First of all, best luck to Jay Wilson on whatever you will be working in the future.

Now, back to reality, try take Diablo 3 experience as one you will never forget that "gamer/consumer dictate what is fun", not you. Devs can make game in anyway they prefer, but we consumer will decide whether the game is worth continue playing.

Too many good arguments have been brought up already, but as for my own experience, what made Diablo 2 fun was that I don't need to have super gear to maw down mob like butter (some unique i have major issue, b/c i had no resist at all lol), and ww-barb like a boss b/c your hp barely drop is fun as well. Not everyone wanna work hard like a Heroic-Raid in WoW when they log on Diablo-game.

When D2 just came out, majority barb --> ww, amazon --> multi shot, necro - Iron Maiden+blood golem/no skeleton, sorc - frozen orb, paladin - zeal/charge or infamous hammer din. I didn't see the Devs busy trying to fix it, nor has the community raged over it. We as players do enjoy killing mob fast and feel powerful. The boss/special unique still take forever to kill in a 8-player game though, if anyone still remember Izual and when your game room doesn't have a sorc with static or other class with crazy gear, haha.


This post has nothing to do with the topic... and there is several builds in D3 that make inferno trivial. I can't believe people are still complaining about the difficulty after all this nerfing..
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01/11/2013 11:52 AMPosted by Grimiku
Thanks for taking the time to write this up. We agree that there’s not a lot of visibility in the game into how proc coefficients work and integrate with item affixes, and we’ve discussed possible ways to improve that. However, I wouldn’t say that they should simply be removed from the game. Proc builds with proper gear can be pretty awesome, but (as the OP noted) for balancing reasons it’s very important to have a scaling proc coefficient.


I agree that proc coefficients have to exist, but I feel that every ability should at least have a >0 proc coefficient. It is just downright silly to have abilities that don't benefit from certain aspects of your gear at all. Having it be to a limited extent makes sense, that adds diversity. But having some abilities that don't benefit at all just makes those abilities dramatically weaker.
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