Diablo® III

Building a Sweeping Wind Monk?

Looks right, the only reason I can think of why the results are so different (still around 10%) is because when I did the testing (and other people offered their time too) I was using as many buffs as possible. So Blazing Wrath, Foresight, 2x Combination Strike, FitL usage on CD, and MoC spam was all included.
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01/13/2013 08:23 PMPosted by gotaplanstan
Looks right, the only reason I can think of why the results are so different (still around 10%) is because when I did the testing (and other people offered their time too) I was using as many buffs as possible. So Blazing Wrath, Foresight, 2x Combination Strike, FitL usage on CD, and MoC spam was all included.

That would certainly account for some of it. If I give the sample monk a 97% buff (15 + 18 + 16 + 48) and FitL, the ratio is a little higher than 58:42 in favor of Thunderclap. And, as I mentioned earlier, it's player-dependent. If I raise the CHC and IAS from 30% to 35%, we're entering 55:45 territory.
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01/13/2013 06:46 PMPosted by Vrkhyz
A reasonable DW scenario—let's say 850 damage per weapon, 1900 DEX, 1.40 APS (base fists), 30% IAS, 30% CHC, and 250% CHD—produces a split of about 66:34 in favor of Thunderclap.


Dual wield alone gives 15% IAS so I think your values are on the low side. Anyhow, yes, with relatively low CHC at 30% damage weighs with TC.
My CHC is at 56%. At 56% CHC tornadoes spawn at ~87% greater frequency compared to 30%.

01/13/2013 06:46 PMPosted by Vrkhyz
Adding FitL tilts the ratio in favor of Cyclone. For example, the ratio would be roughly 58:42 for this monk with FitL active.


In my calculations I didn't account for FitL being spammed. If you account for it then the damage per hit should look like this:
Cyclone Damage: 1.25 * 1.2 * CHC * Faith Combined Damage
TC Damage: 1.45 * (0.8 * Weapon damage + 0.2 * Faith Combined Damage)

Testing at Ghom with 2 identical white weapons and FitL on constant cooldown my SW:Cyclone still out-damages my TC. IAS is 62% and CHC is 56%. With my normal weapons the difference is greater(dual wield with different average damage). Just looking at the damage calculations you can see that the CHC value determines the effect of IAS.

Actually at this point, with an attack speed modifier for TC I can just plug numbers in and get ~59% CHC and 0% IAS for 50:50 split. Conditions are identical damage weapons, casting FitL for SW, and constantly spamming FitL. No buffs or anything else. On testing with Ghom I get kill times of 97 seconds without SW and 48 seconds with SW. Obviously if blind isn't used for thunderclap then SW takes up a greater portion of damage dealt.

Increasing IAS doesn't change the ratio at all unless FitL is involved, in which case it seems, in limited testing, to tip it back toward Thunderclap, but only by a very small amount.


If FitL spam is considered then the involvement of IAS depends on CHC. Are your tests from spreadsheet formulas? What values of CHC did you test with.

01/13/2013 06:46 PMPosted by Vrkhyz
Increasing the number of targets tilts the ratio toward Cyclone. For example, with two mobs in range, the ratio drops to roughly 62:38.


Yes, because for TC the damage of the AoE effect is not split with the same ratio as the proc coefficients.

Increasing CHC tilts the ratio toward Cyclone for obvious reasons. For example, bumping our example monk's CHC to 35% drops the ratio to roughly 64:36. Again, same thing as DW.


Skorn is a 2 hand weapon. The IAS or CHC lost from dual wield or CHC shield shift damage towards SW. In this case did you consider FitL?

Were those figures you were using including the SW vortex itself Vrk? Cuz if they weren't that would account, and basically drop the figures to what I was claiming earlier :p

If they were, then I'm not sure where the difference is coming from since its almost 10% (potentially) which is rather large.


You have 2 weapons. I assume you initiated SW with your EF and used WKL to test. If you used a weak WKL your average TC damage will be lower putting more emphasis on SW. Using EF as the offhand on the other hand will give your main hand bonus APS which does calculate into Faith. In the case of a weak WKL using Faith with EF will give greater SW weight.

01/13/2013 08:49 PMPosted by Vrkhyz
That would certainly account for some of it. If I give the sample monk a 97% buff (15 + 18 + 16 + 48) and FitL, the ratio is a little higher than 58:42 in favor of Thunderclap. And, as I mentioned earlier, it's player-dependent. If I raise the CHC and IAS from 30% to 35%, we're entering 55:45 territory.


Without Faith you need something like 80.5% CHC and 0 IAS to get 50:50 split. With Faith and assuming you use it constantly for thunderclap you need somewhere around 59% CHC and 0 IAS. These numbers aren't very reasonable but players hitting around 50% CHC with decent attack speed bonus will see their SW damage rivalling TC. All of this is considering no short term buffs captured with SW, no item swapping, and 2 weapons with same damage.

01/13/2013 08:14 PMPosted by Vrkhyz
If something looks wrong, let me know.


Cyclone: 1.25*1.2*.3*W = .45W
TC: 1.45*W
Vortex: .3*W
1.45:.75
65.90:34.09

Looks fine but do you have one that accounts for blinding flash?
Edited by Kaho#1895 on 1/15/2013 5:42 AM PST
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I went for the extreme end of Inna's 4-piece non-swapping TC.

I spent a lot.

I click sweeping wind every 6 seconds or so just to be safe (while out of combat). So it never goes down... Except when I run back to town to sell stuff.

I hold down the FoT button and kill things. Sometimes the screen gets so spammy with cyclones that I can't see when I am about to be frozen.

I farm MP7 act 3, fairly slowly compared to TR folks. But I can be listening to the news, talking to people, etc. and not die.

I am too lazy to see what real benefit I am gaining through the total 37% sweeping wind bonus I have on Inna's Radiance, Mara's, and SoJ. There's also the Lightning skill bonus from Won Khim Lau.

Would I recommend spending as much on my gear as a typical swapping TR build costs? No.
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Cyclone: 1.25*1.2*.3*W = .45W
TC: 1.45*W
Vortex: .3*W
1.45:.75
65.90:34.09

Looks fine but do you have one that accounts for blinding flash?

The spreadsheet does, so I simply plugged some numbers into it and eyeballed some of the bullet points I made earlier. Constructing a formula to handle BF isn't hard, though. I'll bring one back during my lunch break. Essentially, you increase the TC damage by 20% of the FitL buff if you're not using Beacon of Ytar and by 25% if you are; you also increase the vortex and tornado damage by the full amount of the buff.
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01/14/2013 01:40 AMPosted by Kaho
Increasing IAS doesn't change the ratio at all unless FitL is involved, in which case it seems, in limited testing, to tip it back toward Thunderclap, but only by a very small amount.


If FitL spam is considered then the involvement of IAS depends on CHC. Are your tests from spreadsheet formulas? What values of CHC did you test with.

Yes, they’re from spreadsheet formulas. I simply tweaked the numbers for the example monk I posted, after which I looked at the proportions.

That would certainly account for some of it. If I give the sample monk a 97% buff (15 + 18 + 16 + 48) and FitL, the ratio is a little higher than 58:42 in favor of Thunderclap. And, as I mentioned earlier, it's player-dependent. If I raise the CHC and IAS from 30% to 35%, we're entering 55:45 territory.


Without Faith you need something like 80.5% CHC and 0 IAS to get 50:50 split. With Faith and assuming you use it constantly for thunderclap you need somewhere around 59% CHC and 0 IAS. These numbers aren't very reasonable but players hitting around 50% CHC with decent attack speed bonus will see their SW damage rivalling TC. All of this is considering no short term buffs captured with SW, no item swapping, and 2 weapons with same damage.

Without Faith, you need something like 76.5% CHC, I believe, in the absence of any IAS; with it, the number you need depends on your true APS. I’m not sure how “with Faith” meshes with “no short term buffs captured with SW,” but I agree on the “no item swapping” and “2 weapons with same damage” parameters.

If something looks wrong, let me know.


Cyclone: 1.25*1.2*.3*W = .45W
TC: 1.45*W
Vortex: .3*W
1.45:.75
65.90:34.09

Looks fine but do you have one that accounts for blinding flash?

Sure. At first, I didn’t understand why you calculated vortex damage at 30% of paper DPS and why you weren’t accounting for the haste modifier for tornadoes and Thunderclap, but then I saw it: you simply divided the vortex multiplier by 1.5 instead of multiplying the Cyclone and TC damage by 1.5. Works for me. So, using those same terms, and assuming that FitL is up 20% of the time for Thunderclap in the absence of Beacon of Ytar (which is equivalent to getting 20% of the FitL damage boost 100% of the time), we get this:

Cyclone: 1.25 x 1.2 x 0.3 x W x (1 + 0.3 x APS) = 0.45 W + 0.135 x APS x W = W x (0.45 + 0.135 x APS)

TC: 1.45 x W x (1 + 0.2 x 0.3 x APS) = 1.45 W + 0.087 x APS x W = W x (1.45 + 0.087 x APS)

Vortex: 0.3 x W x (1 + 0.3 x APS) = 0.3 W + 0.09 x APS x W = W x (0.3 + 0.09 x APS)

If your total APS is 1.82, you get this:

Cyclone: 0.6957
TC: 1.60834
Vortex: 0.4638
1.60834:1.1595
58.11:41.89

If your total APS is 2.1—say, a pair of daggers and +40% IAS—you get this:

Cyclone: 0.7335
TC: 1.6327
Vortex: 0.489
1.6327:1.2225
57.18:42.82

Turning on Beacon of Ytar allows you to boost your Thunderclap damage more often but leaves your Cyclone damage unchanged, so it widens, rather than closes, the gap between the two damage sources.

It is very, very difficult to get Cyclone to be half your real DPS, assuming identical weapons. Unbalanced weapons with very different FitL bonuses could do it, I suppose. Extreme cases will do it, too. For example, your Ghom test (identical white weapons, +62% IAS, 56% CHC) produces a ratio of 45.74 to 54.26 (i.e., it favors Cyclone). This ratio depends, in part, on the base APS because of the FitL bonus. The ratio I quoted assumes that you’re using 1.50 APS daggers; if I assume 1.40 APS fists instead, the ratio rises to 46.23 to 53.77, which means that Thunderclap’s contribution with fists is higher than it is with daggers.

Hope that helps.
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01/14/2013 07:44 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
Without Faith, you need something like 76.5% CHC, I believe, in the absence of any IAS; with it, the number you need depends on your true APS. I’m not sure how “with Faith” meshes with “no short term buffs captured with SW,” but I agree on the “no item swapping” and “2 weapons with same damage” parameters.


Yes it is 76.5%; The functions are correct and I just misused the numbers. The 59% CHC 0% IAS gave results close to 1:1 as the APS was not great enough to have a large effect but yes it is dependent on APS. IAS should affect each source equally when faith is absent of both SW and TC. Short term buffs aren't practical for normal play and for the most part you can ignore this condition.

01/14/2013 07:44 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
Sure. At first, I didn’t understand why you calculated vortex damage at 30% of paper DPS and why you weren’t accounting for the haste modifier for tornadoes and Thunderclap, but then I saw it: you simply divided the vortex multiplier by 1.5 instead of multiplying the Cyclone and TC damage by 1.5. Works for me. So, using those same terms, and assuming that FitL is up 20% of the time for Thunderclap in the absence of Beacon of Ytar (which is equivalent to getting 20% of the FitL damage boost 100% of the time), we get this:


At the beginning of the thread I had a few damage calculations up but I did not have the TC attack speed modifier and did not know if SW damage was .45W per second or otherwise. I wasn't looking for exact numbers; I was trying to show Gotaplanstan that attack speed and critical hit chance determine the balance of damage. With the haste modifier and SW identified my results are similar to yours. This is because the functions listed are basically naked damage calculations stripped bare of the other damage modifiers.

01/14/2013 07:44 AMPosted by Vrkhyz
It is very, very difficult to get Cyclone to be half your real DPS, assuming identical weapons. Unbalanced weapons with very different FitL bonuses could do it, I suppose. Extreme cases will do it, too. For example, your Ghom test (identical white weapons, +62% IAS, 56% CHC) produces a ratio of 45.74 to 54.26 (i.e., it favors Cyclone). This ratio depends, in part, on the base APS because of the FitL bonus. The ratio I quoted assumes that you’re using 1.50 APS daggers; if I assume 1.40 APS fists instead, the ratio rises to 46.23 to 53.77, which means that Thunderclap’s contribution with fists is higher than it is with daggers.


I used 1.40 weapons for the test. I don't think my case is extreme but this depends on the player. Compared to other monks I've ran with, my real APS isn't even high due to the fact that I am not using an Echoing Fury. Maybe to some these stats are on the high end but I find them reasonable.

I have no real interest in damage ratios and I initially posted in this thread to give build advice. In my first reply to Gotaplanstan I was merely restating the rules of the game. Attack speed and critical hit chance determines the balance of damage. Faith considered, using a slow 2 hand weapon like Skorn will favor TC damage compared to critical shield or dual wield. CHC is the deciding factor. Gotaplanstan can continue to deny this but this is just how the game currently works. Sorry if I was mean spirited.
Edited by Kaho#1895 on 1/15/2013 5:44 AM PST
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01/14/2013 04:44 PMPosted by Kaho
I have no real interest in damage ratios and I initially posted in this thread to give build advice.


This thread has been you arguing about damage ratio's since post 5.
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01/14/2013 04:51 PMPosted by Cayzer
This thread has been you arguing about damage ratio's since post 5.


I enjoy arguing.
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Lol.

I'll give you that - so do I.

Well played.
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01/14/2013 04:44 PMPosted by Kaho
Short term buffs aren't practical for normal play and for the most part you can ignore this condition.

I believe you're mistaken there. By way of comparison, here are my monk's real DPS numbers without Faith in the Light:
  • Thunderclap: 90,477.68
  • Sweeping Wind: 37,907.03
  • Total: 128,384.71

If I add Faith in the Light, here are the new figures:
  • Thunderclap: 100,938.76 (+10,461.08)
  • Sweeping Wind: 59,821.17 (+21,914.14)
  • Total: 160,759.93 (+32,375.22)

This mean that FitL's contribution to Thunderclap accounts for nearly a third of its overall value. If I add Beacon of Ytar, that proportion grows to just under three-eighths:
  • Thunderclap: 103,554.02 (+13,076.34)
  • Sweeping Wind: 59,821.17 (+21,914.14)
  • Total: 163,375.19 (+34,990.48)

We're talking a DPS increase of just under 7% in the first case and nearly 9% in the second. This is roughly equivalent to getting Combination Strike for free, or adding the value of another spirit generator to it if you're already using it. I'm hardly going to ignore it :)

I think your CHC and IAS are on the extreme side—I don't recall seeing too many monks with such high numbers—but I also think they're quite good. I bet you could really crank that DPS with just a few adustments.
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01/14/2013 04:54 PMPosted by Kaho
This thread has been you arguing about damage ratio's since post 5.


I enjoy arguing.

No, you don't.

(Apologies to Monty Python's Argument Sketch.)
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Posted by Kaho
Short term buffs aren't practical for normal play and for the most part you can ignore this condition.


Sorry, I wasn't clear on defining "short term buffs." At the start of my run I bring in a WD to provide Slam Dance for 20% IAS and 30% Damage to boost both Faith and SW. This brings my real SW single target DPS up from around 7.5 million DPS to around 9 million DPS. My TC damage however is left untouched since the buff drops off and is never refreshed. SW is constantly refreshed for the remainder of the game and so carries the buff at all times.

I was not referring to FitL as the rest of my post was describing how FitL spam gives a meaningful contribution to TC.

Other short term buffs include attack speed shrines for faith, and using skills to boost skill bonus damage for SW cast and then promptly switching the skills out. This isn't "normal" play so I did not include it in my previous assumptions.

My fault for the confusion.
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No, you don't.

(Apologies to Monty Python's Argument Sketch.)


Haha
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01/14/2013 05:20 PMPosted by Kaho
7.5 million DPS to around 9 million DPS.


You're killing Ghom mp10 in around 15 seconds? Epic.

Nice work getting a WD in just for the buff.
Edited by Cayzer#6828 on 1/14/2013 5:28 PM PST
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Posted by Kaho
Short term buffs aren't practical for normal play and for the most part you can ignore this condition.


Sorry, I wasn't clear on defining "short term buffs." At the start of my run I bring in a WD to provide Slam Dance for 20% IAS and 30% Damage to boost both Faith and SW. This brings my real SW single target DPS up from around 7.5 million DPS to around 9 million DPS. My TC damage however is left untouched since the buff drops off and is never refreshed. SW is constantly refreshed for the remainder of the game and so carries the buff at all times.

I was not referring to FitL as the rest of my post was describing how FitL spam gives a meaningful contribution to TC.

Other short term buffs include attack speed shrines for faith, and using skills to boost skill bonus damage for SW cast and then promptly switching the skills out. This isn't "normal" play so I did not include it in my previous assumptions.

My fault for the confusion.

Ah! I see. Okay; no problem! :)
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Long story short, the math Vrk did in posts 40 & 46 reinforce what I said:

01/12/2013 12:05 PMPosted by gotaplanstan
it would probably be a small range like 52.5-57.5:47.5-42.5 at the very most.

Where he used somewhat conservative figures for APS, CC, and CD. When these figures increase, the ratio slowly becomes more favorable in SW's and Cyclone's favor which results in eventually entering the range I gave.

01/14/2013 05:20 PMPosted by Kaho
This brings my real SW single target DPS up from around 7.5 million DPS to around 9 million DPS.

Its funny seeing you give these figures, considering earlier in the thread you said your argument hinged on NO gear swapping. So yet again, your argument hinges on unrealistic (or legal as per Blizzard's D3 EULA) parameters. Even if we put aside your argument for a second, by you posting EDPS values that high, we also know that you macro swap for buffing. Which further renders your credibility void.

The simple truth is, even the best geared monks in the world cannot attain EDPS values that high without at the very least (and probably more, would have to do some quick math) doing weapon swapping for snapshotting.
Edited by gotaplanstan#1369 on 1/14/2013 5:41 PM PST
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Like I said, you can continue to believe whatever you want. The math is done with normal play and not with any "exploits." My calculations match those that Vrkhyz has. It's not my fault that you don't understand what is going on.
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01/14/2013 05:48 PMPosted by Kaho
Like I said, you can continue to believe whatever you want. The math is done with normal play and not with any "exploits." My calculations match those that Vrkhyz has. It's not my fault that you don't understand what is going on.


Lol there is no way you can reach eDPS that high without gear swapping.

Post a video.
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Lol there is no way you can reach eDPS that high without gear swapping.

Post a video.


I never said this. Reread the posts and you'll realize that the math and calculations I am referring to are the ones above for TC and SW damage calculations. Those functions are for "normal" gameplay and NOT item swapping. Gotaplanstan is just confused.
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