Diablo® III

Suggestions for WD Skills 1.0.2

I noticed that in Pvp while using 0 dogs the other players benefit from the healt globes dropped by the dogs and that is not right because it`s not a party, in there it`s everyone for himself.

Also Big Bad vodoo with slam dance , only the Wd that used it should benefit from the 30% dps bonus .
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is too good to be true:

Sidherat, I think you are overlooking the fact that the skills buffed here are quite weak and unpopular among WDs. There is also further community thought process for why a skill should behave a different way, which I will summarize below.

- AOE haunt. no. all skills are single-target

I am all for breaking such rules with runes. Look at Toad of hugeness, Manitou, Pile on, Dead Rush. Zombie Bears, etc. The Spirit Doctor needs more AOE spells hence Haunt gets an AOE rune.


- mass confusion reduced timer. NO. hell, no. MC is a VERY powerful skill, that shouldnt be spammed (just like barbs Wotb.. but somehow blizz left it alone). that would create another braindead CM Wizz

MC does not confuse everyone only about half the monsters you cast it on. It's actually not as powerful or popular as you suggest since it only happens once every 60 seconds. Only Paranoia and Hallucination are ever used for their damage. I tried making good use of Unstable Realm with Tribal Rites and Last Breath, the combo was weak, the DPS lost was immense, and in the end I did not have a spammable MC. There should be good rewards for the cost of synergizing weak items with weak skills.

- rush of essence. I love this idea. but if it happened there is no way i'd use anything else. 7 stacks is simply too good. I tried that extra INT with d3up and it is crazy amount of extra damage.

Go for it! Rush of Essence is currently one of the least used passive, next to fierce loyalty.

- while i like your fetish ideas (their current state now is 'suck') idea of them being sacrifice'able makes me worry. people now are not using fetishes so hardly anyone tested them.

Dude I think almost everyone who has replied to this thread has tested them! I have done extensive tests on them myself. Fetishes aren't like dogs, who can be summoned with a click. They slowly build up over time to 4-7, they fluctuate and require that you attack monsters, otherwise they die. Meaning they are costly, and currently they provide nothing, absolutely nothing, for that cost. Giving them force armour is a good start. Sacrifice I think opens up a different kind of play for the General. You see, a General who sacrifices his fetishes will essentially be petless for a while. He has to make that decision between burst damage and vulnerability or consistent damage over time.


- numbing dart..only if it does not affect elites too much. elite with 40% speed and attack speed is almost as helpless as an elite facing good CM Wizz.. i like the idea of reduced attack speed, but maybe not by 60% but to 60%?

Numbing dart hits only one target. And it's weak and extremely unpopular. I would love it if it came close to CM (though I seriously doubt it will) as that would open up a build based on a primary skill.

- stacking acid rain DOTs.. that screams pwnage :/ it is already sick powerful..

AC is powerful with a few casts but not powerful when it comes to casting it more than that, at which point it becomes insanely expensive. So costly that it can not be spammed even with 3 mana regen and max mana items and mana passives and mana skills, it's the only skill we have that cannot be spammed! The only WD who are going to spam AC are Proctors, and their damage output is super duper low. Stacking should enable the Proctor build.

- pile on. i'm one of these that know how to aim this thing and it is crazy powerful and underused skill. improve it - yes, but not like that (reducing cooldown)! that would create another 'must use' skill. i'm fine with dmg increase, but would propose '.. corpses leave behind a pool of poison dealing 230% dmg over two seconds' instead of flat increase. try Ray of Frost / Black Ice sometime. this should be added to ALL wall of zombies runes!

I don't think it would be must use, like I said the majority of WD who tried Pile On found it clumsy. But I'm fine either way. I do like your DOT idea.

- desperate grasp. simply increase the radius, no-cooldown skills are risky..

Not if they are horribly weak. Besides we are looking for a cooldown anywhere from 0-4. It's up to the developers to decide, how low they can go with this skill.
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"Circle of Life" is powerful enough
Also, "Decaying Dogs" may be imbalance since you have "Sacrifice"
"Boogie Man" and "Devolution" should be more appealing if they can summon fetishs once your dogs have reached the limit number.

MiracleWei, Decaying dogs only last for 12 seconds. I think combining Sacrifice with this would be quite difficult. And if you are using Devolution, Circle of Life, Boogie Man, Zombie Dogs, Zombie Handler and Sacrifice just so you can have large quantities of exploding dogs, well then you are not doing much else when they are all Sacrificed. It would be a build of its own thoug hI doubt it will be viable.

zombie bears:

nerf it a little. sorry, but it simply is overpowered. keeping the damage is ok, but increase mana cost so it cannot (yes, cannot!) be spammed without SERIOUS effort


@sidtherat
Can you spam ZB without SERIOUS effort?
Just how much iAS do you think you can have if you want to use ZB?
Look at barbs, all they have to do is increase DPS with nothing to worry about.
Also have you ever thought increase mana cost of ZB will make "Blood Ritual" a MUST skill for WDs?

Lol exactly. Nerfing Bears means we nerf any chance of competition the WD has with other characters.
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I noticed that in Pvp while using 0 dogs the other players benefit from the healt globes dropped by the dogs and that is not right because it`s not a party, in there it`s everyone for himself.

Also Big Bad vodoo with slam dance , only the Wd that used it should benefit from the 30% dps bonus .

I thought they had fixed this...

+1 if they haven't
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04/01/2013 05:00 PMPosted by JangBahadur
idherat, I think you are overlooking the fact that the skills buffed here are quite weak and unpopular among WDs. There is also further community thought process for why a skill should behave a different way, which I will summarize below.


thanks for replies, it really is something when you can discuss something over an internet in an adult way :)

youve convinced me to some of your ideas, but some i still see in a different way:

MC does not confuse everyone only about half the monsters you cast it on. It's actually not as powerful or popular as you suggest since it only happens once every 60 seconds. Only Paranoia and Hallucination are ever used for their damage. I tried making good use of Unstable Realm with Tribal Rites and Last Breath, the combo was weak, the DPS lost was immense, and in the end I did not have a spammable MC. There should be good rewards for the cost of synergizing weak items with weak skills.


I use mass hysteria, for weeks, as a 'boom' spell that opens the elites fight. MC plus stun makes them completely helpless for few crucial seconds. given that fight lasts like 10-15 seconds and there are few trashmobs between elites the MC is almost always off cooldown or nearing it (i have no MC gear nor passive). i know that now this style is not popular but im sure that if you can have MC that can be used every elite fight IT will be used, because with your idea implemented you do not need to gimp yourself with gear/passives. i like to have my games hard and somewhat challenging. total oposite of what CM Wizz is now and hate the idea of another class gaining such broken abilities. and no, it is not hard to 'play' CM Wizz. the only difficulty lies in forking cash..

Dude I think almost everyone who has replied to this thread has tested them! I have done extensive tests on them myself. Fetishes aren't like dogs...


i'm sure theyve tested them, but if they have tested them with your damage and survivability buffs? and with new ways of creating them? AND with ability to sacrifice them? and what about adding fetishes into 0Dog build?.. that would make it even more powerful without really creating new comparable build (why gimp yourselves..) i simply think that they need to be fixed first: to not die so fast. to do visible amounts of damage. to buff the fetish army as it is one of the coolest spells in entire game but every time i see it in public games my first though is 'new guy..'. after these fixes i'm more than sure that fetishes will be viable without creating possibly not foreseen synergies (like sacrifice). blizz know how to make pets just right (btw i see Protector used all the time) and hopefully they can make fetishes fun, powerful but not 'must have'

04/01/2013 05:00 PMPosted by JangBahadur
Numbing dart hits only one target. And it's weak and extremely unpopular. I would love it if it came close to CM (though I seriously doubt it will) as that would open up a build based on a primary skill.


i see no difficulty in aiming at 3 different elites in succession :) but would love to see it and test it, i like the idea of primary skill (cheap, sucks) that has unique utility that makes it viable all game, all modes. see my Toad of Hugeness and Spider Queen ideas.

and finally, congrats on making blizz employee read your thread and respond to it. while i think some of your ideas are a bit over the top i admire their quality and constrained approach completed with open discussion. hopefully blizz will at least FIX some broken elements (for all classes). list of runes that noone uses is long and while it is shrinking it is still too long for comfort..
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04/01/2013 05:09 PMPosted by JangBahadur
MiracleWei, Decaying dogs only last for 12 seconds. I think combining Sacrifice with this would be quite difficult. And if you are using Devolution, Circle of Life, Boogie Man, Zombie Dogs, Zombie Handler and Sacrifice just so you can have large quantities of exploding dogs, well then you are not doing much else when they are all Sacrificed. It would be a build of its own thoug hI doubt it will be viable.


Say you summon 3 dogs and then kill 20+mobs in 10 sec. Now with "Circle of Life" and "Decaying Dogs", you have 9 dogs in total. Then you sacrifice them, the ruin "Provoke the Pack" will give you 45% DPS buff for 30 sec. So "Decaying Dogs" would not be a good idea.
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Sidherat,
thanks for replies, it really is something when you can discuss something over an internet in an adult way :)

Yes I think the WD community is awesome like this. So far all the discussions I have had here were in an adult way. Nothing like this anywhere else in the internet!

Hysteria, for weeks, as a 'boom' spell that opens the elites fight. MC plus stun makes them completely helpless for few crucial seconds. given that fight lasts like 10-15 seconds...

If you can take down elites in 15 seconds, 3 seconds of Hysteria might sound good (3/15 seconds) but then if you can take them down in 15 seconds, you don't really need Hysteria.

I play on harder MP such that it takes me a minute or two to kill 1 elite pack. At this difficulty, I actually need defense and damage mitigation. Hysteria with 12 seconds would be very helpful.


i'm sure theyve tested them, but if they have tested them with your damage and survivability buffs?

Well in terms of survivability, fetishes have none. They should at least stay on screen for a bit. Their damage is fine at 20%. Since they constantly need to be cast I wouldn't expect any more or less dps.
and with new ways of creating them?

I am not aware of any new way of creating them.
AND with ability to sacrifice them?

This would be like if you were using Sacrifice on dogs outside of the 0Dog build. Small amounts of burst damage, with healing/mana/buff.
and what about adding fetishes into 0Dog build?

This is not possible with Sycophants. You could summon Fetish Army but that serves no purpose for 0dog. D0gtors can tank on their own. You *could* Sac the Fetish Army but that would add very little to your dps. You are better off using Slam dance or Paranoia.

i see no difficulty in aiming at 3 different elites in succession :) b

Yeah if alternating enemies can reach Proctor levels, that's awesome.

but would love to see it and test it, i like the idea of primary skill (cheap, sucks) that has unique utility that makes it viable all game, all modes. see my Toad of Hugeness and Spider Queen ideas.

Yeah that works and should apply to all Primaries but I would like to see builds like Splinters make a come back. A build completely centered on Primary Ability(ies). BTW I make good use of Spider Queen with Hybrid Bear Proctor. She's keeps Vision Quest up or 20 seconds! I prefer her over Widowmakers and Pyrogeist in a Proctor build.

and finally, congrats on making blizz employee read your thread and respond to it. while i think some of your ideas are a bit over the top i admire their quality and constrained approach completed with open discussion. hopefully blizz will at least FIX some broken elements (for all classes). list of runes that noone uses is long and while it is shrinking it is still too long for comfort..

Thanks. Hopefully we will see some of our ideas in-game in later patches! :)
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Say you summon 3 dogs and then kill 20+mobs in 10 sec. Now with "Circle of Life" and "Decaying Dogs", you have 9 dogs in total. Then you sacrifice them, the ruin "Provoke the Pack" will give you 45% DPS buff for 30 sec. So "Decaying Dogs" would not be a good idea.


MiracleWei, You are right, that might be OP. I think Pride, For the Master and Provoke the Pack can be capped at 4 dogs like they are now. Black Blood, however, should not be capped, so if you have 10 dogs all ten should leave behind blood that slows enemies.
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i know this has been said before but.... buff locusts!!!

make it act like sweeping wind:cyclone - more crits bigger swarm with a resetting cooldown - imagine a swirling poisonous cloud of death (could be limited to pickup radius) + a new cerknife that adds xx% to poison damage.

omg i just wet my pants :P
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Wrathful Protector

I tried to like this Garg's rune but it is lacking. I am fine with long cool down but for 15s, I expect the following:

1. Invincibility - meaning Garg can't die or at least cannot be controlled during 15s.

2. Damage increase from 110% to 150%.and I may widen the Cleave effect more.
Edited by Jibikao#1131 on 4/3/2013 1:51 PM PDT
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04/03/2013 01:49 PMPosted by Jibikao
Damage increase from 110% to 150%.and I may widen the Cleave effect more.

In the 45 seconds it's on cooldown you would get more damage from just using the cleave rune.
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04/03/2013 02:10 PMPosted by Skeletor
Damage increase from 110% to 150%.and I may widen the Cleave effect more.

In the 45 seconds it's on cooldown you would get more damage from just using the cleave rune.


Maybe the increased damage should be around 200% but the point of Wrathful Protector is a "control rune", not a real pet. You only use it when you want a lot of knock back.

But during that time, Garg can die and get controlled.

Maybe 200% per hit can make this rune a lot more attractive for "oh no!" button? Have you tried it?
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Jibikao you are right. I often find myself using this in situation where I need it and then is gets frozen and is killed before it has a chance to do anything. :(

What could also work is if it's cooldown was reduced to 45. So you could combine Homunculus and Tribal Rites with it get the CD to 14 seconds, and always have it up.
Edited by JangBahadur#1968 on 4/3/2013 7:40 PM PDT
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Jibikao you are right. I often find myself using this in situation where I need it and then is gets frozen and is killed before it has a chance to do anything. :(

What could also work is if it's cooldown was reduced to 45. So you could combine Homunculus and Tribal Rites with it get the CD to 14 seconds, and always have it up.


I am always right! (just kidding)

I actually was excited about Wrathful when they introduced -Garg CD but I wasn't impressed and mainly because Garg can still get killed and controlled during that precious 15s. Other than that, it is actually a pretty cool "Control Power" by hiding behind him. I was mainly testing to see if Garg can hit more than one target and he can because his body size is increased.

It would be nice if they can reduce Garg's CD or simply reduce Wrathful's CD. I just know Wrathful should be seen as a control power and not a Pet power.

If they give Wrathful immunity (at least the control part), then it could be a very fun power to get -cool down for. Damage should be higher than 110% too. Preferably, each hit causes 20-30% Fire AoE with 10' radius. :D
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Toad Affinity

I am still thinking about this one. The idea behind this rune is to let you spam it forever for free but 13 mana cost is really kind of "free" for 99% of WDs.

I have a feeling the reason Toad hasn't been "touched" for two patches is that they are still debating on the direction of the change/buff.

We all know Toad of Hugeness is mostly a "oh, I am bored, let's try something else" kind of skill. Affinity is even more useless.

We already have a higher damage rune in Exploding Frog and Rain of Toad is way better at targeting and long range.

What are good suggestions? The one I can think of is Ice Frog that slows down the enemies but in reality, it is going to be pointless because as random as the 3 Frogs are, your best chance to get the most out of 3 Frogs is by STANDING CLOSE so the -snare effect is really pointless IMO. Otherwise, the "blue" looking Frog fits "snare" rune.

Another one is +mana from each Frog but Frog isn't the easiest rune to use for it. You need to stand within 20' to make sure one of them hit. I really don't know anyone would take Mana Frog over Widowmaker or Spined Dart. I just don't see it.

So, Mana Frog and Snare Frog are out for me. Any good and interesting ideas?
Edited by Jibikao#1131 on 4/4/2013 2:55 PM PDT
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Check out the opening post @ BCD3 and CDE2

whadya think?
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Toad Affinity:

Each frog has X% chance to drop health globe on hit.

This does not sound very powerful but

- Gruesome Feast would SURELY benefit from it as globes are hard to come by at higher MP (making GF and option beyond MP5-6)
- extra healing is never bad
- and while useful it still is a lowly entry level skill so it is not OP

I dont see other ways: +health is unreliable with frogs, and with life steal being the cornerstone of this game (oh my how much better this game would have been without this braindead affix..) it is not needed anyway. +mana is already on two other primaries. +armor etc might be good but it is bit borring. other effects do not match WD lore.

the only other way that comes to my mind is 'chain cast' - frogs spawn other frogs on hit/crit/kill/whatever just like locust does and zombie charger does.
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The 3 Frogs has some major problems due to pathing, randomness and how they explode "prematurely" against any obstacle. What I truly think is that until these are improved/fixed, it really doesn't matter what rune effect it offers. lol A tank-mind will still use Rain of Frog only.

I don't mind the randomness or even shorter distance of Frogs but what I do mind is how the 3 frogs come out. They come out in random direction! What I much rather prefer is you POUR all 3 out in a short STRAIGHT line and then the 3 Frog split randomly. This way if you want to maximize the damage, you can stand at melee distance or you can use it at range with more random effects.


1. Making Toad of Hughness following you is an idea I would like. WD is a "pet" class and having a Toad following me and tongue lashing things is fun! Maybe make it like a "Hydra" like skill.

2. I like the +health globe thing. The chance will be low enough but it's there and really, 3 Frogs are quite hard to use. You really have to stand very close. T_T

3. The +armor thing is not bad but I think a serious Tank-mind WD will still consider Rain of Frog of LoH.
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04/05/2013 11:44 AMPosted by Jibikao
randomness and how they explode "prematurely" against any obstacle


this i consider something to FIX not BUFF/CHANGE

there are unfortunately quite a few WD skills that need to be FIXed before even considering them for buffs (like how fetish sycopanths die like baloons in the foundry)

Pathing.. is wonky but i like it. but idea of them starting in a straight line is.. quite nice. not really a number buff but an option for tanks out there - only risk is that buffed 3frog combo can outshine Bats
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This way if you want to maximize the damage, you can stand at melee distance

This is currently possible with frogs.
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