Diablo® III

How to Make Loot Fun - Potential of D3

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Awesome ideas but these ideas aren't new really. Imbues, Runes, Jewels...

Would really love to have those implemented but sadly IMO, just like what the dev says, it takes time to code and implement. Heck even takes them years. Look how long it took for PvP to come out?

I imagine something like this will come out in the expansion though...
Diablo 3 doesn't need any of this. Loot was fun in Diablo 2 simply because you found upgrades all the time and didn't have an auction house.

My suggestions: Make a ladder mode in which you create a new character and can neither use the RMAH nor the GAH. That would be fun as hell.
Diablo 3 doesn't need any of this. Loot was fun in Diablo 2 simply because you found upgrades all the time and didn't have an auction house.My suggestions: Make a ladder mode in which you create a new character and can neither use the RMAH nor the GAH. That would be fun as hell.


It's impossible to find constant upgrades AND have RNG without forms of parallel progression.
Awesome ideas but these ideas aren't new really. Imbues, Runes, Jewels...Would really love to have those implemented but sadly IMO, just like what the dev says, it takes time to code and implement. Heck even takes them years. Look how long it took for PvP to come out?I imagine something like this will come out in the expansion though...


Yes these kind of systems are definitely coming with the expansion. The main issue is how good they manage to create a good form of parallel progression. If people will be capped out on items and paragonlevel it'll be hard to keep players happy with just one new type of item.
Bump!
I really like the Runepower idea .. increasing the power of runes for abilities.
Don't have much time so just skimmed over your post.

This did catch my eye though:

Parallel progression ! Important !

THIS is the most lackluster principle about Diablo 3 at the moment. Currently there are to few carrots to chase

This is exactly what's making the item hunt so boring.
They tried to do something with crafting, but that turned out to be utterly useless.
There really needs to be some use for all those worthless items that are dropping.

This game needs some stat rerolling, cubing or other means of crafting that can be controlled a little. Everything is so oversimplified. It's clear that none of the developers ever played or liked the previous games since this game falls short on all fronts except combat which was never really the highlight of D1 or D2.
Don't have much time so just skimmed over your post.

This did catch my eye though:

Parallel progression ! Important !

THIS is the most lackluster principle about Diablo 3 at the moment. Currently there are to few carrots to chase

This is exactly what's making the item hunt so boring.
They tried to do something with crafting, but that turned out to be utterly useless.
There really needs to be some use for all those worthless items that are dropping.

This game needs some stat rerolling, cubing or other means of crafting that can be controlled a little. Everything is so oversimplified. It's clear that none of the developers ever played or liked the previous games since this game falls short on all fronts except combat which was never really the highlight of D1 or D2.


Didn't have much time so i skimmed over your post.

Parallel progression means you make progress in multiple tabs and not only that but each and every one of these tabs leads to a goal (increasing character strength/ making your character unique). It's not necessarily an issue of simplification as even a simple system can be enjoyable if rewards the player and allows choices.
Good post. No, I didn't read it all but don't yell at me.

I agree with some of your points, mainly the first page. Diablo 3 does a poor job of making you want to play, as compared to Diablo 2. Here are some examples:

-Atmosphere
I don’t think I need to say much more. Diablo 2 atmosphere was astounding.

-Carrot on a stick
Diablo 2 made you feel like the next carrot was right around the next corner

-Constant satisfying carrots. (Constant rewards.)
Items you found, from start to finish, were very satisfying to obtain.

-Parallel Progression
At first, I thought you meant something different by this.
Basically, what it means, is that you are accomplishing more than one thing at a time as you play the game. But, more of what you’re thinking of is improving stats. This really isn’t a good way to utilize it, because it just becomes making X –stat bigger. Diablo 2 actually had lots of parallel progressions that most people might not think of, but actually made the game much more interesting. Like, the number of slots in your belt, finding all of the waypoints.

-Decision making
I think that this is the most important feature that Diablo 3 lacks. Very rarely does the player feel like they are making a long-term decision that impacts their character. Because they don’t. It’s a lot of fun to play a game that requires thinking, that requires compromise. Most of the time deciding between gear is on which item is X stat greater.

In a way, this helps out with the Carrot-on-a-stick concept, because the player is given a boundary of compromise. The brain will automatically imagine what it would be like not having to make these compromises. Ex. Choosing between fire resistance and defense.
You’re right when you say that itemization is one of the most improvable aspects of Diablo 3. Your ideas will help solve the problem of boring endgame. But, I feel like most of the additions are unnecessary. Most of them just give the player another small thing to improve and make the game more complicated. It is only necessary to have a few of these things. If you have so many, there becomes a point when one type of incremental improvement is the best, and everyone will use that type.

I feel like crafting and imbuing should not exist side-by-side. I think that crafting should be improved, so it costs more to create and the result is better. (I think you said this?) In this way, it kind of accomplishes the same thing as imbuing. Why not combine the two? Just make imbuing items rare crafting materials.

Jewels/ more gems would be nice.

Charms at this point would be very hard to implement, and more than likely become clutter in the constant battle to balance items.

----------------SKIP TO HERE-------------

Overall, your effort to make loot more interesting comes from making incremental additions to loot, in the end-game phase. However, right now Blizzard needs to focus on the roots of the problem of boring itemization. Once that is fixed, maybe they can move on to things that you are proposing.

-Make good items drop more, all items drop less.
-Do this by vastly improving legendries

-Make useful loot drops occur in lower levels. The kind of drops that you will want to use for many levels to come.

-Make affixes on items encourage build diversity.
-Have some skills that depend on certain affixes.

- Have some play-styles that depend on certain affixes. Examples: (certain barbarian needs fast hit recovery, certain WD needs fast mana regen, certain DH needs high gold-pickup radius)

-Detach your DPS rating from your weapon damage.

As of right now, the only stats that really matter are (Primary stat), vitality, weapon damage, crit hit, crit chance, attack speed. Not much customization. Pretty much every character has the same gear. The way to tell a good character from a bad one is time spent into the character, and really not much else. Everybody is a clone in Diablo 3, because item affixes suck. And because skills are dependent on one thing: your weapon damage.

TL,DR: Diablo 2 offers more incentive for playing than Diablo 3. One of the main reasons is there is compromise in Diablo 2. OP’s ideas are good, but aren’t necessary. First we need to look at the source of the problem. Item affixes suck, and building a character is about getting X-stat bigger.
Edited by Wolverine#1833 on 1/27/2013 5:07 PM PST
-Decision making I think that this is the most important feature that Diablo 3 lacks. Very rarely does the player feel like they are making a long-term decision that impacts their character. Because they don’t. It’s a lot of fun to play a game that requires thinking, that requires compromise. Most of the time deciding between gear is on which item is X stat greater.


This is why crafting and finding jewels is in there. You commit to a certain type of crafting recipe and do it over and over again.

-Make good items drop more, all items drop less. -Do this by vastly improving legendries


No. Increasing loot quality doesn't change anything. You find stronger loot earlier but after you made your upgrades you won't find any loot at all again. This is problem occurs when you progress in just one path. Every item is either an upgrade or it's useless. You have to create alternative routes for players to take.

01/27/2013 05:06 PMPosted by Wolverine
-Make useful loot drops occur in lower levels. The kind of drops that you will want to use for many levels to come.


It's tackled in the thread. Imbues, jewels and crafting materials drop in more difficulty levels and the player farms runepower on every kill.

If you meant legendaries dropping at lower levels that you will use later on... Why? Why would i want the perfect glove to drop in nightmare mode like in D2? It just means that after i found this item with lvl 45 i can completely ignore every glove i see from than on, because i found the perfect one already.

01/27/2013 05:06 PMPosted by Wolverine
- Have some play-styles that depend on certain affixes. Examples: (certain barbarian needs fast hit recovery, certain WD needs fast mana regen, certain DH needs high gold-pickup radius)


Crafting recipes, jewels and runepower accomplish just that. The choice of skills still has to matter the most. The gear has to add flavour to the playstyle. Make the character feel diverse. Balancing skills is another issue though and currently is being done really really well.

01/27/2013 05:06 PMPosted by Wolverine
-Detach your DPS rating from your weapon damage.


Why on earth would you want to do that?

01/27/2013 05:06 PMPosted by Wolverine
As of right now, the only stats that really matter are (Primary stat), vitality, weapon damage, crit hit, crit chance, attack speed. Not much customization. Pretty much every character has the same gear. The way to tell a good character from a bad one is time spent into the character, and really not much else. Everybody is a clone in Diablo 3, because item affixes suck. And because skills are dependent on one thing: your weapon damage.


Example for gear with these changes for amulet slot:

Awesome blue amulet with awesome affixes:
a) you salvage it into magical crafting materials and create one of the crafting sets
b) you add sockets to it. If you are lucky you get 5 sockets and put 5 elemental jewels into it: You now deal 40% more fire damage!!

Awesome yellow amulett with 4 good affixes:
a) you salvage it into superior/magical crafting materials and create one of the crafting sets
b) you add sockets to it and put jewels in it.
c) you imbue it with to give you teleport/a passive skill/chance for double minions

01/27/2013 05:06 PMPosted by Wolverine
TL,DR: Diablo 2 offers more incentive for playing than Diablo 3. One of the main reasons is there is compromise in Diablo 2. OP’s ideas are good, but aren’t necessary. First we need to look at the source of the problem. Item affixes suck, and building a character is about getting X-stat bigger.


Just go and try playing Diablo 2 selffound or without botting. There is a reason you aren't playing it now. Everybody is looking the same all the time and 95% of the loot is garbage. Don't let yourself fool into thinking D2 was that awesome in terms of itemization.
01/27/2013 02:42 PMPosted by JEM
I really like the Runepower idea .. increasing the power of runes for abilities.


The idea of increasing power of runes was in the game already. The "xp system" behind it is just a try to make it feeel comfortable while playing.
700 clicks and no responses? Do you guys diasgree or don't bother reading it?
Excuse me, I meant to say that the standard for legendaries dropping should be increased. There should not be a total improvement overall. But, you get my point: the drop rates are poor because the chance for crap to drop is very very high. It's not about increasing loot quality for the progression, it's about increasing loot quality so players have more incentive for actually farming.

I disagree with runepower. Pretty much all it is is get rewarded for getting X kills. There really isn't much more substance, and would just add another unneccesary way of improving your character. The goal of having more things to do is all ready solved with improved crafting , imbuing, and advanced jewels.

You show me examples of how crafting would solve the problem of lack of character variety. Really, what you are doing, is EXACTLY what I reccomended: you are adding better affixes that promote build diversity.
I like your ideas though. Agree with jewels.

The crafting system you propose is nice, but I don't like the idea of crafting multiple items at once. First of all, you roll the chance to get the item you want whether it be normal or magic from any item. This means that for every item, the amount of items you can make increases no matter what. Next, you add the ability to create a certain number of items, but you will always get one no matter what. This pretty much reduces the need for magical items at all, because you are 'rolling' the odds twice. Secondly, I also disagree with this because crafting should not be about # of items made, but should be about creating a quality item. I understand that having multiple rolls increases the odds of a quality item, but crafting should not take this style and should be more about time commitment = quality product. Not, chance of quality product. Who wants to have their inventory fill up with more useless items?

I don't really want to fully explain why your DPS shouldn't be relative to weapon damage. Basically I would talk a lot and make fancy generalizations but the main reasons are because all offensive skills are based on damage. So basically there results in no little skill diversity. What comes to mind when you want to increase skill diversity by adding an affix? probably something like + 40% fire damage. See the connection? +elemental damage is complete opposite of weapon damage. affixes should have more room to maneuver.

****Note: when I say affixes, I mean any affix/suffix.****

Just go and try playing Diablo 2 selffound or without botting. There is a reason you aren't playing it now. Everybody is looking the same all the time and 95% of the loot is garbage. Don't let yourself fool into thinking D2 was that awesome in terms of itemization.


Diablo 2 was actually awesome in its itemization. It doesn't really come down to what % of the loot is garbage, or the fact that everybody farmed the same spots. All that matters is that it was bloody fun - and that's a fact. No matter how you put it, Diablo 2 had great itemization and Diablo 3 is lacking in it.
Also it wasn't really that hard without botting or all that kind of stuff.
Oh and 99% of Diablo 3 loot is worthless. :S
Edited by Wolverine#1833 on 1/28/2013 3:55 PM PST
01/28/2013 03:54 PMPosted by Wolverine
Excuse me, I meant to say that the standard for legendaries dropping should be increased. There should not be a total improvement overall. But, you get my point: the drop rates are poor because the chance for crap to drop is very very high. It's not about increasing loot quality for the progression, it's about increasing loot quality so players have more incentive for actually farming.


You have a wrong perception of loot quality. What exactly is the measurement for bad loot? Playing selffound i could easily find items that get me through normal inferno and even MP1. So this IS good loot i am having. And no it is not trifecta it is not Allres on every item and it is not worth x million on the auction house. But it takes me through the game so it IS good loot. You can increase the loot quality all you want even if every item has crit, critdmg and attackspeed, after 100 runs you WON'T find upgrades quickly.

01/28/2013 03:54 PMPosted by Wolverine
I disagree with runepower. Pretty much all it is is get rewarded for getting X kills. There really isn't much more substance, and would just add another unneccesary way of improving your character. The goal of having more things to do is all ready solved with improved crafting , imbuing, and advanced jewels.


The main factor here is it being passive. Every time you go out and kill a mob you can find loot, crafting materials, imbues, jewels, charms, paragon xp AND runepower. If you have so many tabs it just feels much more rewarding to farm. No matter how good your loot is, no matter how unlucky you are your character is a different one when you log off. This IS important. Cutting the character progression off of loot only.

You show me examples of how crafting would solve the problem of lack of character variety. Really, what you are doing, is EXACTLY what I reccomended: you are adding better affixes that promote build diversity.I like your ideas though. Agree with jewels.


I thought a lot about simply adding these affixes to the general affixpool. And even though this isn't something i would completely hate, it isn't the optimal way to introduce these affixes to the game. Remember: The crafts can usually NOT have a certain type of affixes. Either no crit or no all res or armor. This makes them ALTERNATIVES. You chose if you want to play with these alternative ways of increasing your character's strength instead of going the usual one sided path of crit stacking.

A character that focuses on "amplify damage" plays differently from a character that focuses on "curse" and differently from a character that focuses on crit/critdmg. Same thing goes to "bloodshield" and "armorconversion". Bloodshield-characters go in at the peak of their strength with a 70.000 HP strong shield that regenerates slowly, while an Armorconversion-character is the weakest at the start of the fight.

01/28/2013 03:54 PMPosted by Wolverine
The crafting system you propose is nice, but I don't like the idea of crafting multiple items at once. First of all, you roll the chance to get the item you want whether it be normal or magic from any item. This means that for every item, the amount of items you can make increases no matter what. Next, you add the ability to create a certain number of items, but you will always get one no matter what. This pretty much reduces the need for magical items at all, because you are 'rolling' the odds twice. Secondly, I also disagree with this because crafting should not be about # of items made, but should be about creating a quality item. I understand that having multiple rolls increases the odds of a quality item, but crafting should not take this style and should be more about time commitment = quality product. Not, chance of quality product. Who wants to have their inventory fill up with more useless items?


This is not an MMO. You can not simply go "time commitment = quality". How would that look like? You craft the same item over and over again and improve it constantly? Have you ever played such a system? It's fun for a week until you realize it's just a MMO-grind. Yes, i have though about influencing quality of items by crafting but in the end you have the exact same problem as before. Either the item is an upgrade(jay) or it is not(nay). If you invest huge amounts of time into the crafting and it turns out to be nay you feel completely betrayed. If you invest huge amounts of time into crafting and it turns out to be a jay you reduce the chance of every future crafting attempt to be a nay. At some point you come to the point where you are just wondering "why would i ever want a lower quality craft if even the high quality crafts turn out to be nay in 90% of the attempts?"

01/28/2013 03:54 PMPosted by Wolverine
I don't really want to fully explain why your DPS shouldn't be relative to weapon damage. Basically I would talk a lot and make fancy generalizations but the main reasons are because all offensive skills are based on damage. So basically there results in no little skill diversity. What comes to mind when you want to increase skill diversity by adding an affix? probably something like + 40% fire damage. See the connection? +elemental damage is complete opposite of weapon damage. affixes should have more room to maneuver.


What are the advantages of NOT gaining more damage from getting a better weapon? If you mean putting the focus away from damage tied to weapondamage there are far better ways to accomplish that (reduce wpd or give more itemslots the +dmg affix), but why don't you want to deal more damage if you find a better weapon? How are you going to differentiate the abilities of my monk. What scales with my weapon damage and what not? If you add a +% skills damage or +% fire damage affix it would turn out the exact same way as weapon damage does. +300% fire damage would be the equivalent of a 1.2k dps weapon. So what is the difference in that? You still won't equip a +200% fire damage just like you wouldnt equip a 800 dps weapon.

Diablo 2 was actually awesome in its itemization. It doesn't really come down to what % of the loot is garbage, or the fact that everybody farmed the same spots. All that matters is that it was bloody fun - and that's a fact. No matter how you put it, Diablo 2 had great itemization and Diablo 3 is lacking in it.Also it wasn't really that hard without botting or all that kind of stuff.Oh and 99% of Diablo 3 loot is worthless. :S


Nope. Diablo 2s items are far from what people remember. They aren't superinteresting, they aren't superrewarding. As i have mentioned go play an unbotted Diablo 2 and you will see your motivation drops rather quickly.
You can increase the loot quality all you want even if every item has crit, critdmg and attackspeed, after 100 runs you WON'T find upgrades quickly.

You missed my point. My point is that, currently, in the game, the speed at which someone finds upgrades is too slow. Or too rare.

This IS important. Cutting the character progression off of loot only.

The game all ready does that. Leveling up. Finding gold. (I guess that's loot.) But, gold, (and items you find for crafting) are pretty consistent too. You have a good point.

You chose if you want to play with these alternative ways of increasing your character's strength instead of going the usual one sided path of crit stacking.


I disagree that this is the optimal way. The Diablo games advocate diversity, and forcing the player to craft in order to be different would mess up the concept of: the items you find dictate your descisions on skills and other items. We don't want to force people to craft in order to experiment, we want it to be available for all players. Also, we don't want players to be able to choose how or when they want to get game-changing upgrades. This should be left up to chance - up to the loot you find yourself.

This is not an MMO. You can not simply go "time commitment = quality"

I meant to say time commitment into getting resources = quality. Makes more sense?

You craft the same item over and over again and improve it constantly?


Doesn't necessarily have to be the same item. But... i mean... the same concept kind of apllies to the hellfire torch. Again and again and again until you get the best. (Keep in mind only very skillful players could do this.)

Either the item is an upgrade(jay) or it is not(nay). If you invest huge amounts of time into the crafting and it turns out to be nay you feel completely betrayed. If you invest huge amounts of time into crafting and it turns out to be a jay you reduce the chance of every future crafting attempt to be a nay. At some point you come to the point where you are just wondering "why would i ever want a lower quality craft if even the high quality crafts turn out to be nay in 90% of the attempts?"


I find this statement ironic because you have the same problem with your crafting system.

On the concept of weapon damage, I didn't really clarify. First of all; physical attacks ARE linked to wepdam, while elemental attacks are not. This means that elemental goers can focus more on other gear to boost their stats. No, it will not work the same way weapon damage does. This can not only pave two new paths from physical/ elemental builds, but can make more paths in elemental builds. (Glass cannon, summoner, fast mana regen, ect...) Also, it frees up space for said interesting affixes.

EDIT: Stats that would increase elemental (+% damg, intelligence, improving specific skills, lowering enemy resistance)
Diablo 2s items are far from what people remember. They aren't superinteresting, they aren't superrewarding.


What? Pretty much what you said is raw opinion... so... I guess we can agree to disagree on that?

Diablo 2 items ARE superinteresting and rewarding. Ask anybody.
Edited by Wolverine#1833 on 1/28/2013 7:06 PM PST
01/28/2013 07:01 PMPosted by Wolverine
You missed my point. My point is that, currently, in the game, the speed at which someone finds upgrades is too slow. Or too rare.


The more upgrades you find the slower you find new ones. Your first torch is a guaranteed upgrade, but once you have a 20-17 torch... how often do you have to run the map until you find an upgrade?

01/28/2013 07:01 PMPosted by Wolverine
I disagree that this is the optimal way. The Diablo games advocate diversity, and forcing the player to craft in order to be different would mess up the concept of: the items you find dictate your descisions on skills and other items. We don't want to force people to craft in order to experiment, we want it to be available for all players. Also, we don't want players to be able to choose how or when they want to get game-changing upgrades. This should be left up to chance - up to the loot you find yourself.


Crafting has to be an alternative path of finding upgrades and it has to feel different. You still find imbues, uniques, rares, blues, whites and jewels on your normal hack and slay expirience that (should) change your playstyle. But when you create this standalone crafting section you CAN theme the crafting recipes. That's what makes it great. If you introduce "Armorconversion" as a regular affix you have the problem that it becomes to strong with other defensive mechanisms or redundant by reducing their effectiveness. But if you make it craftable you can add the restriction of having a different affixpool withouth armor and all resist.

And yes there should be more legendaries that alter your playstyle (on page 2 or 3 i mention a few good ones) and yes there should be more interesting affixes on rare items, but these systems like jewels, imbues and crafting allow for crazier affixes and should make great use of them. You can not simply continue to add "whatever you want" affixes to the rare affixrolles because you can not add any sort of flavour properly that way.

01/28/2013 07:01 PMPosted by Wolverine
I meant to say time commitment into getting resources = quality. Makes more sense?


And this is achieved by getting more items. Even if RNG makes you feel like you were betrayed at some point, the general rule of "the more items the better the chances for high quality are" applies. If you chose 1 item from a pool of 10 items it is going to be worse than if you chose 1 item from a pool of 100 items. Of course you could find the perfect item right at the beginning but the chances of finding it are 10 times larger if the pool is 10 times bigger.

01/28/2013 07:01 PMPosted by Wolverine
Doesn't necessarily have to be the same item. But... i mean... the same concept kind of apllies to the hellfire torch. Again and again and again until you get the best. (Keep in mind only very skillful players could do this.)


I played D2 mostly offline. When i first started playing online it took me 1 week to find a guide, create a paladin get the items and start farming hellfire torches. The FIRST TIME i was playing online! So i have to disagree with the "skillful" theory. But yeah, farming torches was a very nice mechanic, but it still can be (and actually was) improved. The hellfire ring unfortunately was demanded by the community so instead of waiting for the introduction of charms and other mechanics Blizzard had to use a ringslot for this type of farming. But even that Ring farming is much better implemented because you progress parallel and find loot and materials.

01/28/2013 07:01 PMPosted by Wolverine
I find this statement ironic because you have the same problem with your crafting system.


It is impossible to get rid of the "jay" or "nay" problem. You can have only so many "jay"s before you come to the eventual "nay". Even if there were only 3 items in the game you would go "jay" 3 times but "nay" from then on for the rest of the game. Even in D2 if you completed your BotD (with the duped runes) while already having a 14LL one, the chances of the new one being a "nay" were pretty high.

But in a Hack'n'Slash you can create alternative paths. There doesn't have to be an optimal one AND you can find upgrades on every try.

Let's assume you like the Armorconversion idea so you start crafting this set with your materials (which you find while hunting other loot). After 100 crafts you get to a certain quality level and it gets progressively harder to make upgrades so you get bored of investing all of your materials into Crimson recipes you start using them for Cyan recipes and from the VERY FIRST CRAFT you have the potential to create an item that is better than your Crimson recipe. But the item doesn't even have to be better. If you will want to change things up a little you will settle with an item of equal value or one that's even worse. Or you craft an awesome imbue or unique for that itemslot and play with that option from then on.

On the concept of weapon damage, I didn't really clarify. First of all; physical attacks ARE linked to wepdam, while elemental attacks are not. This means that elemental goers can focus more on other gear to boost their stats. No, it will not work the same way weapon damage does. This can not only pave two new paths from physical/ elemental builds, but can make more paths in elemental builds. (Glass cannon, summoner, fast mana regen, ect...) Also, it frees up space for said interesting affixes.EDIT: Stats that would increase elemental (+% damg, intelligence, improving specific skills, lowering enemy resistance)


So which attack is physical and which isn't? Is my monks cyclone strike physical? Does the wizard have any physical attacks? You already mentioned that the loot isn't rewarding enough and now you want add affixes that are useless to many players? The loot still comes down to simple DPS increases. But this time these dps increases limit your build variety so an item that is really awesome loses half of its strength as soon as you switch two abilities. In fact every build is railed into focusing on the elemental type you have on your gear, because it doesn't benefit from other builds at all.

This is why i was skeptical of making "elemental jewels" but i decided to go with it in the end because they didn't affect the normal affixes. Rewarding dedication is OK, forcing it is not.

What? Pretty much what you said is raw opinion... so... I guess we can agree to disagree on that?Diablo 2 items ARE superinteresting and rewarding. Ask anybody.


I've talked to enough people to realize they just like their tinted glasses and their nostalgia. When i actually see people play Diablo 2 again they get bored rather quickly because they realize they aren't getting their chains of honour and enigmas without duping and the affixes for Diablo 2 are even more useless than those of D3.
01/29/2013 03:33 AMPosted by Dwelve
Let's assume you like the Armorconversion idea so you start crafting this set with your materials (which you find while hunting other loot). After 100 crafts you get to a certain quality level and it gets progressively harder to make upgrades so you get bored of investing all of your materials into Crimson recipes you start using them for Cyan recipes and from the VERY FIRST CRAFT you have the potential to create an item that is better than your Crimson recipe. But the item doesn't even have to be better. If you will want to change things up a little you will settle with an item of equal value or one that's even worse. Or you craft an awesome imbue or unique for that itemslot and play with that option from then on.


First: I gree with your crafting mostly except for the way you roll items.
Second: If I can just craft an awesome imbue or unique why wouldn't I do that in the first place? And why would I craft a Cyan just to be out of the ordinary? The game should lead the player to being unique.

01/29/2013 03:33 AMPosted by Dwelve
The loot still comes down to simple DPS increases. But this time these dps increases limit your build variety so an item that is really awesome loses half of its strength as soon as you switch two abilities. In fact every build is railed into focusing on the elemental type you have on your gear, because it doesn't benefit from other builds at all.

Well... that's why I want it. An item losing ability at skill change is arguably a good thing for diversity.

01/29/2013 03:33 AMPosted by Dwelve
You already mentioned that the loot isn't rewarding enough and now you want add affixes that are useless to many players?

Well it makes those affixes MORE useful to certain players. Besides, an item that is dropped doesn't have to be a jay or nay for your character specifically, it could be for you lower level characters of your own or other classes. This makes it so more items dropped are useful for somebody!
Edited by Wolverine#1833 on 1/29/2013 12:46 PM PST
01/29/2013 12:45 PMPosted by Wolverine
Second: If I can just craft an awesome imbue or unique why wouldn't I do that in the first place? And why would I craft a Cyan just to be out of the ordinary? The game should lead the player to being unique.


Sorry for sounding rude but have you read the crafting section?

These crafting recipes are an alternative. They are not supposed to be necessarily better or worse than imbued items or jewels items or uniques. You are not supposed to create better items but more flavoured items. Like in D2 you could create items that all had faster cast rate PLUS random affixes.

01/29/2013 12:45 PMPosted by Wolverine
Well... that's why I want it. An item losing ability at skill change is arguably a good thing for diversity.


This is something I have a big problem with. I agree with the fact that certain combinations should be stronger. Certain items have to be more powerful with certain abilities and preferably with certain playstyles BUT they are not supposed to be useless if not put together with that ability/playstyle.

Example: In D2 we had the differentiation between attackspeed and castspeed. If you are melee you had absolutely no gain at all from castspeed and vice versa. Why is that NOT the optimal way to create diversity? Well let's put it to the extremes. In D3 we create 5 new affixes and remove crit. These five new affixes are not called "increases chance of a monk to crit by x%", "increases chance of a barb to crit by x%" and so on. In how many situations would you prefer this kind of system over the current one affix benefits all system? It might feel a little more unique or special to find your own version but in 4 out of 5 cases you will not be having fun looting this item. Even the item might be good for a twink it would still be much better if both characters profited from it but one character (the crit dedicated one) profited more.
Another differentiation: casts and melee and ranged attacks. In D3 it would be already very hard to clasify the abilities but even more importantly what would we gain from it? In D3 we are not stuck with the "one skill does everything" mentallity so if create my build i am BOUND to use only one type of attacks. Is that really better?

Instead of creating these completely OP or completely useless affixes why not create ones that compete with each other but all give you a benefit?

Example: - You deal 1% more damage for every 2%-10% HP missing. Certain characters might go for a heavy berserker type of play where they constantly try to keep their HP low but therefor be rewarded with more damage. If you are not that kind of player you will not benefit as much from that affix but you will still benefit from it. It won't be useless as soon as you switch from cold to fire damage.

Problem: If you let it compete with crit, critdmg attackspeed and main attribute there will be a desire to just have all of them. So you have to exclude this affix from the regular rolles and make it a crafting recipe of a unique.

This is the advantage of Diablo 2. It's not the affixes from affixtables that competed but the affixes on the uniques/runewords that competed. That's why it felt like there were so many "usefull" items.
01/29/2013 01:39 PMPosted by Dwelve
You are not supposed to create better items but more flavoured items.

I think you mean the introduction of the crafting system is for giving you the ability to create more flavoured items. But, whats the point? It's just for the sake of being different? Like I said before, the game needs to lead you into being different by circumstance.

01/29/2013 01:39 PMPosted by Dwelve
Certain items have to be more powerful with certain abilities and preferably with certain playstyles BUT they are not supposed to be useless if not put together with that ability/playstyle.

I agree. I'm not sure why you go to great lengths to point this out, because I never really said to make it worthless.

01/29/2013 01:39 PMPosted by Dwelve
t might feel a little more unique or special to find your own version but in 4 out of 5 cases you will not be having fun looting this item.

Why not? You are insinuating that just because more affixes on items are dissapointing that the looter will get less good items. Why not just increase the quality of the items with irregular affixes you find?

01/29/2013 01:39 PMPosted by Dwelve
In D3 it would be already very hard to clasify the abilities but even more importantly what would we gain from it? In D3 we are not stuck with the "one skill does everything" mentallity so if create my build i am BOUND to use only one type of attacks. Is that really better?

It's better than the current system. Then you can better differentiate two characters.
01/29/2013 01:39 PMPosted by Dwelve
Problem: If you let it compete with crit, critdmg attackspeed and main attribute there will be a desire to just have all of them. So you have to exclude this affix from the regular rolles and make it a crafting recipe of a unique.

Why do we have to exclude this? It's not a bad thing, it just means the player has more of a choice to make. Do you understand my main point, that before you can add in these other features, that the drop-items pool needs to create build diversity on its own?
Charms- I would really like to see them, but atm implementation/balancing would be too difficult.

Runepower-Not necessary

Jewels- Yes! Also, better gems?

Imbuing-Yes

Crafting-Yes and no. Upgrades to interface + getting rid of materials froom inventory are good. But, currently its just salvage X items to roll X items. I beleive it should sway more towards NEEDING better materials to get items. Also I disagree with X items. Should be 1 item.

EDIT:I just read the crimson/obsidian section of crafting. Just skimmed through it before. Really good ideas with the affixes. Definitely include this kind of stuff! But, again, I feel the system should be complimentary to the allready diverse items. (Which currently aren't). Adding these recipes would only be an improvement to the system.
Edited by Wolverine#1833 on 1/29/2013 2:44 PM PST
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