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I feel like I’ve had to explain several things over and over again with regards to double tornado builds. I figured it was time to make my own thread so I could just refer to it rather than have to explain it in several different threads.
I also think it’s time to start a formal thread to help people gear. Making this thread will do both and hopefully be a resource for those that already have some experience with the build but want a practical way of understanding the intricacies of the build. Nothing I say here will be new. Not everyone will agree with my gearing choices. There are many roads to Dublin.
As has been pointed out in several threads, I didn’t do any of the research on which this information is based. I didn’t contribute anything to the development of the double tornado (DT) build. However, I have spent a lot of time constructing budget sets with 2 major goals in mind: function and upgradability.
I’ll break the post into several different sections for ease of reference
1. Disclaimers and References
2. DT mechanics
3. Budget minded gear implementation of DT mechanics
4. Budget gear set construction
Disclaimers and References:
DT attacks per second (aps) and tic breakpoint (bp) data by Nubtro:
DT effective dps (tDPS) by Lorenze:
D3rawr which combines all of this for us by sssd: http://www.d3rawr.com/d
The major disclaimer to all that follows is that I build sets with the sole intent of doing permawrath, dual wield, DT, alkaizer runs. I dislike mp0 farm with no wrath builds. I’m not a fan of DT with 2h weapons.
I understand there are other methods for high efficiency exp/hr farm but any build that doesn’t include permawrath feels like playing in slow motion. Just as important as pace of play is the added EHP/CC immunity permawrath provides. If you were forced to play without wrath, your EHP/sustain requirements will be higher because you have less dodge and will get frozen/jailed/feared. I’d rather spend my gold on tDPS upgrades and not EHP.
I don’t think my way of playing is how everyone should play. If you want to debate the merits of how I play, please do it elsewhere. If you want to debate the merits of the gearing choices I make, we can do that here.
On a similar note, building budget sets is very different from building high tier sets. It’s not simply a matter of getting the same piece but with lower stats. A great example of this is getting crap-roll trifecta jewelry.
I also do not make gearing choices based on PvP since we know absolutely nothing about it yet. You can spend billions of gold and be right or spend billions of gold and be wrong. I’m willing to wait before spending any gold on PvP gear until I know something.
tDPS is not an exact numerical representation of in game effective dps for DT builds. However, it comes damn close. Just like all metrics, it ain’t perfect. I find it most useful for helping with gear upgrades because the numbers you see can be compared to another number based on a proposed upgrade and a percent difference can be calculated. Even though the absolute numbers may be off, the percentage difference can still be helpful.
Edited by PhatPhoEater#1370 on 1/11/2013 3:17 PM PST
Paper DPS vs tDPS-
The general public’s reliance on paper dps to measure DT effectiveness is unreliable on several levels. Paper dps is determined based on your chosen auto attack, most commonly bash or frenzy. The game takes into account all your cc/cd/ias/str/weapon damage and bonus damage of bash or frenzy, then calculates your paper dps. If DT barbs spent the entire run bashing every monster then paper dps would be a helpful metric to judge effectiveness. In reality, DT barbs use bash for less than 1% of their DPS output. This is an arbitrary number, but the point is that if you are relying on bash for a significant portion of your DPS, you are playing the build wrong.
A second less obvious reason unbuffed paper DPS is unreliable for this build is that it does not account for all the active skill buffs that multiply in-game DPS as it is being delivered. Because this build depends on IAS so much, the added 25% of wrath gives a huge boost to in game DPS. The reason DT build is so popular is synergy like this. Every skill provides a multiplicative boost to tDPS. Unbuffed paper DPS fails to account for all this synergy.
Third, and most importantly, paper DPS cannot distinguish well optimized sets vs poorly optimized ones. As stated above, the game uses all dps mods to come up with paper dps. Not all dps mods are equal for the DT build. I explain below why having IAS that doesn’t put you into the next bp, does virtually nothing for your tDPS, but adds significantly to your paper DPS.
Basic DT mechanics are already well understood. Stack cc, slow MH, fast OH, and some IAS. You can find this advice anywhere. I have found that successful permawrath and maximizing fully buffed tdps requires a more nuanced approach. I’ll be discussing this more specifically under the budget gear implementation section.
General consensus is that 25-30cc on gear with a mace 1.2 aps and dagger 1.5 aps with some IAS is enough to make this build work. It is possible to get cc on every slot for minimal cost, but stacking cc beyond 25-30 starts seeing diminishing returns when you could be stacking IAS or CD in its place. Full buffs and 30cc on gear gets you to a total of 73cc with br(3)/opks(10)/wrath(10)/ruthless(5)/WM(10)/Base(5).
APS and Breakpoints-
As outlined in Nubtro’s work, breakpoints represent the aps value where sprint nados increase the speed of ticks. Important BPs to remember are 2.0, 2.23, 2.5, and 2.86. Adding IAS to get an aps in between breakpoints will contribute nothing to your tDPS since your nados will still tick at the current BP.
With a standard mace/dagger setup, you will need 27ias to hit 2.0/2.5 on the mh/oh weapons when fully buffed. These aps values are generally regarded as the goals for DT sets. You can use d3rawr to calculate this or the following equation:
APS = weapon speed x (1 + [0.40 + on gear ias% as a decimal])
0.4 comes from dual wield bonus (.15) and wrath bonus (.25).
Using some algebra you can calculate the necessary on gear IAS needed for a given aps goal and weapon speed:
Total IAS = APS/weapon speed, then Total IAS – 1.4 = on gear IAS as a decimal.
Always round up to make sure you go over the desired aps. For example, if you needed 26.7 IAS as is the case above, then you really need 27 IAS.
The single most common problem I’ve seen with budget DT sets is a lack of IAS. People stack cc and cd, then they complain that they either cannot keep permawrath (especially against single targets) or they are forced to play much higher MP than their tdps dicatates to keep wrath up.
IMO, the standard recommended 2.0/2.5 aps is too inconsistent for permawrath for people new to the build, especially vs ranged single targets. This can be overcome by adding more CC to the mix, but once you get the build working properly, you will want to add more tdps and will want to push the IAS anyway. Either way you will get to the same place. More experienced players will have less trouble keeping permawrath at these BPs since since there is some skill required to play this build :). However, as the gear set improves, a dagger OH will become prohibitively expensive to upgrade.
I’ve found that having 2.23 on both weapons to be the point at which permawrath becomes more consistent. This will be virtually impossible with the standard mace/dagger OH since you will need 46IAS to hit 2.23 with the MH. This is 6 slots of IAS for one BP and your OH dagger will still remain in the 2.5 bp.
Budget-minded gear implementation of DT mechanics
*EDIT 2/1/2013 Intermediate budget weapon combo added*
*EDIT 2/11/2013 Intermediate budget weapon revised to include big str MH*
How many slots of IAS?
There are several ways to setup your gear to hit 2.23 aps on both weapons and get the requisite amount of CC to make the build work smoothly. The route you take will largely depend on your budget.
Some important things to consider here are weapon combos and the number of IAS slots to hit your APS goal. Taking the mace/dagger combo above, a total of 6 IAS slots are required to hit 2.23/2.5 aps. It’s not hard to understand that you will sacrifice a lot to get 6 slots of IAS on a tight budget.
The minimum number of IAS slots to hit 2.23 on both weapons is 2 when using an Echoing Fury (EF) in either hand vs. 6 slots in the above example. You can achieve 2.23 on both hands if you use an axe with 1.3aps and stack 32 IAS or 4 slots without an EF. The problem with an axe in the MH is the damage range, which I address below.
There are other combos to hit these aps goals and hit higher OH aps, like axe/ias daggers, but you will still require 4 slots of IAS to get your axe into the 2.23 aps bp. IAS daggers are also quite expensive.
IMO, if you are trying to hit these aps goals with the fewest slots of IAS, EF is the only way to go. The +aps mod applies to both weapons and essentially gives you 2 slots of IAS. Unfortunately, there are drawbacks here as well which I will discuss below.
What kind of weapons?
When considering weapons for DT builds, you need to prioritize certain stats over others, especially with a tight budget.
Ideal DT MHs have the following stats in order of importance:
650-1200 damage range, strength, crit damage, socket, LS, zero elemental damage
The damage range is priority #1. It is often the same price to get a much lower damage range with str , socket and crit on the weapon. Depending on the mix of rolls, the resulting tDPS is usually pretty similar. However, depending on the rest of your set, a high damage range mace with strength/socket and no crit may outperform. It is impossible to make an informed judgment without using d3rawr in these situations.
Adding LS to the MH is sometimes required for high budget builds but in the mid to low budgets, it’s often better to get LS somewhere else and use the MH as a DPS slot.
Elemental damage on the MH reduces the effectiveness of SOJ’s +elemental bonus mod since it is only applied to the non elemental portion of your MH damage. On an ultra low budget, you probably wont be using an SOJ, so it’s less important.
An example of a 1mil MH would have the damage range and strength/socket ( my female barb MH). Prices have risen recently so it may cost a little more. 10mil could get you same damage range but more str/socket. 100m would get you str/socket and crit (my male barb MH).
EDIT: The performance gap between the 1m and 100m MH described above is huge. I've found an intermediate bridge setup that costs about 10m for both weapons and provides enough power to get you into mid tier tDPS. 5mil can get you an EF with around 600-1100 damage (~1200DPS) with str and LS. Pair this with a 5mil sword OH with monster stats: 280str+, 90cd+, socket.
EDIT: Another intermediate weapon combo is standard EF with LS/STR/crit and a MH mace with the usual damage range but 250str+ and socket. These MHs can be found for under 10m. The 100 str is equivalent to about 25-30 crit.
Ideal DT OHs have the following stats in order of importance:
Strength, LS and/or crit damage, socket, high dps.
The venerable OH stat stick is still useful but a low DPS OH will noticeably decrease your tDPS. While the tDPS difference between a 700 dps OH and a 1.2k dps can be as much as 5-10% fully buffed, the price difference can be 500% and not worth the performance boost. 700DPS is a convenient number since EFs start in this range.
In terms of raw tDPS at lower gear tiers, a stat stick dagger OH may outperform a comparably priced EF, but you lose the aps cushion and better fury gen the EF provides. Also, as your gear improves, it becomes very expensive to push tDPS with an OH dagger since you will need massive stats and higher on- weapon dps to outperform an EF. For example, subbing my EF OH for a 1k dps dagger with 200 str and 200crit would probably be ridiculously expensive and still wouldn’t give more tDPS than my current setup.
The only reason EFs are so useful is the +aps mod. Any EF worth using will have 0.24aps+. Trying to get this mod with a MH EF with 650-1200 damage will no longer be in the low to mid tier budget. Even getting a 600-1100 EF without crit will be priced out of a mid tier budget (100mil+). Going lower will only cap your tDPS potential and still cost a lot of gold.
EFs with 0.24aps+ mods are important since they let you get more slots of 8ias instead of 9. Anyone who has shopped for jewelry/gloves with 9ias can tell you that prices are significantly higher.
edit: For 0.24aps you need 9/9/8/8 IAS slots to hit 2.5. For 0.25aps you need 9/8/8/8 IAS slots to hit 2.5.
Since OH dps is less important than MH damage range, putting the EF in the OH to benefit from the +aps provides the best value. Unfortunately, EFs can only roll 2 random mods after the primary stat. That means you wont be able to get crit, LS, and a socket. It has been my experience that giving up LS at a certain tDPS is feasible but it will restrict your skill build since you will be required to use the bloodthirst passive. Not everyone will agree with this choice, so it’s one you will have to make on your own. Skipping crit damage for LS on the OH will mean less CD, which becomes increasingly valuable in the mid tier gear sets.
100k gold EF would have str,LS and some random bonus mod, maybe free vit. 1mil EF would have a double str roll, LS (my female barb OH). 5-10mil EFs can have str, LS, base crit. The next tier starts around 20mil and you’d get str/LS/socket. Str/socket/Crit EFs are rising in price. My male barb’s OH was 20m, but it is difficult to find any in that price range now.
One of the biggest boosts for a fully buffed DT barb is an SOJ, provided you can maintain your aps/cc requirements. Using my barb as an example, my fully buffed tDPS vs all monsters is 1.4mil. tDPS vs elites is 1.8mil. Although I may be able to boost my tDPS vs all with a rare trifecta, that would cost several hundred mil to 1billion, it will not come close to 1.8mil tDPS. If I were able to afford a trifecta ammy for another billion and a witching hour, my tDPS would move to around 2mil tdps vs all. Like almost everyone else, I don’t have 2bil+ to do this.
Just for the sake of argument, let’s say I did make these changes. What would I be able to do differently in game? MP 10 farm would still take too long to be worthwhile. I might shave a minute or 2 off my MP 7 runs, but uber runs will take almost the same amount of time because I went from 1.8m to 2m vs elites. Understanding this reality, I’m happy being stuck in the mid tier.
In the lower gear tiers, an SOJ isn’t so critical since your absolute tDPS numbers won’t change very much.
Edited by PhatPhoEater#1370 on 2/11/2013 10:27 PM PST
Constructing Low to Mid Tier Sets
If you think what I’ve outlined above is agreeable and you are interested in using my help, I’m available to help you shop.
I’ve focused mainly on functionality but an important thing to remember when building a set is upgradability. I made many mistakes early on with putting stats on the wrong slots. This has probably cost me several hundred million in wasted gold. The most common mistake is putting huge vit on weapons or ar on jewelry. This can work for budget tier sets but upgrading will require multiple slot replacements just to maintain the same EHP. Ultimately, these kinds of upgrades cost more gold in the long run.
This means that for the same cost, another set may get you more tDPS or EHP, but you will have headaches replacing several slots at once just for a tDPS upgrade in the future.
I haven’t mentioned EHP or sustain yet and these are very important factors when building a set. Depending on the budget, I usually reach for certain EHP/Sustain goals. For example, on a 1million budget, I would aim to get enough EHP/sustain to rarely die in MP3, but tDPS to farm MP1 quickly. For a 10million set, enough EHP/sustain to rarely die in MP5 but farm MP2-3 quickly.
I’ve recently noticed some of the items I like for low budget builds are rising in price. The budget examples I’m providing might change as AH prices fluctuate. Evidence of these fluctuations are my female barb’s set. I built this in mid-December for about 12m. She doesn’t die in MP5 and can farm MP3 quickly. Things like the mempo, lacunis, BT pants/chest are almost doubled in price as of 1/11/2013.
I won’t go into specifics about the importance of average damage and where vit/ar should go since I’ve spent so much time on this write up already. If I do, I will add it to this section.
IMO there are several tiers of gear and upgrading requires saving enough gold for substantial performance improvement. For a set built with a 1million total budget, meaningful upgrades will probably cost 1mil per slot. A set built for 10mil will probably require 10mil per slot for meaningful upgrades. Upgrading between these tiers will give small incremental improvement, which you will end up replacing sooner than you would if you had waited for the bigger purchase.
First! Thanks for helping out the community....I know we don't always agree on gearing choices, but you are knowledgeable on the build....hope this goes well for you.
FYI if you want to borrow any of my video instructions for play style and strategy don't hesitate to ask.
Edited by Wayneold#1685 on 1/11/2013 3:08 PM PST
Phat has helped me a lot....and I am happy with my mid-tier equipped barb...if u look at my profile you will not see my gear...i have +experience gear to run mp1 to lvl up...which i will use for now to get to par 50
However, he has definitely made some good recommendations...some i screwed up on before i got to the right points....but I was lucky in reselling the gear
I will definitely be looking for his recs when it comes time to upgrade so im saving my gold for my next series of upgrades...
At any point over MP3. If you venture beyond that your tDPS should be at a level that sustain from LS will be enough to deal with incoming monster damage. Using high or only LOH in mid MP and beyond is static sustain. As your tDPS increases, your sustain stays the same. As MP increases, incoming monster damage is also increasing, and LOH will eventually not be enough.
Thanks for all the props!
Excellent post man.
Help a brother out, just got acquainted with the D3rarw site and love it...what does the BES # signify?....I've seen in other posts that you don't pay attention to it (in favor of tdps/sustain)..just wondering what it is. Cheers.
I really don't know. It is in the link to Lorenze's tDPS work. IIRC it is either a metric for tDPS and EHP or tDPS and speed of alkaizer runs.
you are 9ias from both weapons being at 2.23. These are fully buffed numbers.
Use the d3rawr link i provided and plug in an EF like mine into the OH. I think it will outperfrom even a dagger with 200str, 200crit. And you wouldn't have to add any IAS.
Even though your OH has nice stats it isnt' fast enough. I assume you can't keep wrath vs single targets without having to bash alot.
Well done. I'm glad the meta has evolved beyond stacking zero ias paper dps skorn builds.
A measure of overall combat effectiveness factoring in tdps/ehp/ms/loh/ls/etc instead of just ehp*dps or ehp*tdps.
The d3rawr site has loh vs ls comparisons though its certainly not wrong to mix them. note LS scales with tdps while loh will skill with IAS breakpoints but not damage.
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