Diablo® III

Phat's budget Double Nado and gear reference

ah i see. i should maybe get any boots instead then? dunno what boots is good (rare, ik boots or such?)

mp2 alone, mp3 with a wiz friend for some quick farming (where he outshine my dps:()
usually i have a hard time keep wotb up on elites & when moving from pack to pack (monsters/elite)

also on elites i cant keep my health up. too little dps for LS to be effective?
i see, i shouldve spent more gold on the weapon.
how much IAS for the build to be effective?

thx for spending time helping!
Your weapon setup and # slots of IAS isn't optimal. You are using 5 slots of IAS to hit 2.23/2.5. Using a 1.4aps IAS axe would have put you at 2.5 on the MH but you'd still need 5 slots of ias. This an extra slot where you are losing CD. If you want to continue down this path, your upgrades will cost a lot more than if you used an EF in the OH and you are sitting at a mediocre 1.1m tdps. You will be stuck looking for a 1.4 aps IAS axe with str, crit and socket which will be nearly BIS. To add any CD, you will need to buy high roll trifectas.

Hitting 2.5 on both weapons in 4 slots would let you use an SOJ without giving up your ik helm.


What you said makes a lot of sense. Thanks very much!
http://www.d3rawr.com/d-8VA71

Am I on the right path?
I'm always short on gold so every upgrade needs to be very planned.

Thanks
Any suggestion on gloves? I know I need at least 8% IAS, 8% CC and some sort of CD.

To be honest, I am having a hard time finding better gloves than the ones I am wearing (Sage Gesture). Other ones I am looking for, I just lose so much health but don't really again enough DPS.

I have a budget of around 20 mill.

IK gloves seem to just cost way too much, should I just go for some rares?
Sprint nados tick at the aps of the last weapon swung. If you are WWing, the nados will alternate ticks based on each weapon. Essentially an average of the 2 weapons. If you are running from one pack to the next and not WWing, the nados will tick according to the last weapon swung.


Damn, I did not know that. Had always thought that last weap swung was last weap swung; I would very consciously swing offhand dagger last and then pop sprint and WW away. And yes, that includes from mob to mob and round and round Es and Ubers alike. This was all under the assumption that until I bash next, offhand weap was the last thing swung... So I guess I won't be paying so much attention to that as of tonight. I have to ask, just because it breaks my heart a bit hearing this. ARE WE SURE??? haha.

One more execution question, how often you guys tap sprint? At certain moments/ mobs/ non fleeing and non fast Es/ Ubers, my Fury globe just stays completely full. Sometimes I tap sprint like mad to drain globe a bit and get some of that wrath timer back. Other times, I tap evenly once per sec, or maybe three times per 2 secs and also start to see the wrath timer rebuild. The main difference being, in one scenario I tap kind of furiously as much as my fury globe can handle and in the other I tap methodically with a determined regular pace. Which is better? Do I get to poop out a sprint tornado every sprint button press? Or no....?

(brief aside: phat, wayne, uberja, lorenze - love reading your threads and contributions to threads and the barb community as a whole. It has been said plenty, but you guys add tons to the original theory of Kripp and Nubtro. Have not been on the forums for a bit, but just one week of looking for you guys' threads and responses has changed my barb for the way better, and I mean DRASTICALLY.)

My mainhand EF is 7ias away from the 2.5 breakpoint, offhand dagger is already at 2.9 (both, at fully buffed of course). Not sure how I would pursue that 7ias besides some tri dmg gloves and then recapturing the lost IK set with a high vit chest (run speed, I would figure out... somehow.) Worth it? Tri dmg IK gloves are way out of reach but I guess would solve the movespeed conundrum.

Or maybe just find a better mainhand EF is a better way to spend the gold?

I find myself in a situation where moving away from the offhand dagger I am currently wearing would be very tough. Best case scenario, with a .24 EF (str, base crit, socket) in the offhand and a big base dmg mace mainhand (maybe str, base crit, and socket??), I would still need to redo rings or gloves to more perfectly hit the required ias to hit 2.5 breakpoints.

My tDPs and eHP and sustain are all pretty great now, but hey reading these threads shows that I could always do better. Is it worth it to pursue the offhand EF route? Or is the offhand dagger I currently rock pretty great for the WW build? Don't get me wrong, if an offhand EF with all the right stuff shows up for cheap, I will snap it up and start saving to rebuild the barb, but that would be a complete and very expensive overhaul. On the other hand, I saw a buddy with a sick mainhand EF he bought for just north of 200 mill that would have upped my tDPS 10%! (don't got all the particulars, but it was 1260ish DPS (mine 1180), 95ish crit (78), a smidge more str, touch less fear, and little bite more APS -- .24 or .23 whereas mine is .22).

Long winded, I know and sorry about that. But, worth it to overhaul completely or just try to get that sick mainhand EF? Feels like the overhaul and move to offhand EF would likely cost more than 200 mill (in weaps alone...) and potentially not get me back to 1.2mill tDPS.

Can I get some input from the baba community? How do I make the move to upper middle class (is it right to call Zaria a mid-tier WW barbie?)? Can it be done with the dagger I wear in offhand or do I need to look for EF offhands? Is the dagger as good as I am making it out to be? The stats are sick (missing LS, yes I know) but the cold dmg is what I think really puts it over the top. And from way up at the top of this post, weapon swings alternate during WW?!?! ARE WE SURE? And how often to tap sprint for maximum tornadoes?

Thank you thank you for the long read.
Phat. Doesn't WW tick based off the weapon about to be swung? (opposite of the weapon last swung).

5. When dual-wielding:
a) WW alternates between weapons to deal damage beginning with the weapon you are about to swing before using WW
b) WW tick frequency depends on the weapon you are about to swing not the weapon you swung before using WW (exact opposite of Sprint)
c) WW fury cost per tick (for the whole duration of WW until you stop spinning) depends on the weapon you are about to swing before using WW. It does not alternate between the weapons and their individual WW fury cost.
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Phat. Doesn't WW tick based off the weapon about to be swung? (opposite of the weapon last swung).

5. When dual-wielding:
a) WW alternates between weapons to deal damage beginning with the weapon you are about to swing before using WW
b) WW tick frequency depends on the weapon you are about to swing not the weapon you swung before using WW (exact opposite of Sprint)
c) WW fury cost per tick (for the whole duration of WW until you stop spinning) depends on the weapon you are about to swing before using WW. It does not alternate between the weapons and their individual WW fury cost.


This is the part of nubtro's work that is confusing beyond comprehension for me. WW accounts for a small percentage of total dps so I haven't bothered to fully understand this. As far as sprint nados, its the last weapon swung AFAIK. This is what I was referring to, not WW.

The comment quoted above is when you are actively WWing the weapons alternate to calc each tic of WW damage, but the alternating weapons also change the sprint nado tick speed.

this mechanic is one of the main reasons i moved away from a mace/dagger combo. I found I lost a wrath enough due to swinging mace last and moving to next mob. nados would be ticking at 2.0 vs 2.5 and I would have over half my wrath timer gone. I tried checking swings before moving from pack but that slows down the run if forced to do it after every white mob.
Hey Phat, great post.

I'm still a novice and don't quite understand how to do your 2.23 or 2.0 aps thing. Can you take a look at my char and tell me what I need to get those?

Thanks a ton.
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ah i see. i should maybe get any boots instead then? dunno what boots is good (rare, ik boots or such?)

mp2 alone, mp3 with a wiz friend for some quick farming (where he outshine my dps:()
usually i have a hard time keep wotb up on elites & when moving from pack to pack (monsters/elite)

also on elites i cant keep my health up. too little dps for LS to be effective?
i see, i shouldve spent more gold on the weapon.
how much IAS for the build to be effective?

thx for spending time helping!


movespeed boots are going to cost alot of gold if you try to keep the same stats on them. Its up to you to decide if you want to drop the gold for that or drop your stats to add MS at a reasonable price. budget IK boots cost 1.5m on US. 140vit ik boots are probably 5mil. Ice climbers like mine without MS were 80m on bid i think. MS ice climbers with big stats are very very expensive.

I would try MP3 solo and see how you do with keeping wrath, but IMO you need a few more %cc. I like hitting higher than 25%.

Your current weapon combo and on gear IAS is fine. you are hitting 2.5aps on each weapon fully buffed.

Your sustain is also a bit low but that has nothing to do with keeping wrath, unless you are kiting all the time. If this is the case, you need to add another slot of LS. For lower tDPS sets, i prefer 3 slots of LS, belt/OH/passive and maybe a little LOH.
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http://www.d3rawr.com/d-8VA71

Am I on the right path?
I'm always short on gold so every upgrade needs to be very planned.

Thanks


I'm not a fan of glass cannon sets. Your ehp+dodge fully buffed isnt terrible but having only 24k hp is not how I would construct a set. Getting a big vit BT chest would fix that issue. You are also over the 25MS cap and ditching that tyraels will get you the much needed vit. You lose the bonus v elites/demons but I'd rather have enough hp to farm mid MP and upgrade the tDPS gradually. I view chest pieces as ehp pieces first, dps second.

Even using opks fully buffed your cc is way too low. I like to hit at least 25cc on gear. I would never take CD over CC like you did on your rings unless I was approaching 40cc on gear.

I require my sets to have double dps mods on gloves/jewelry and str if the budget allows. The next step is adding 30-60 average damage. I always get cc/cd on ammy, cc/ias on rings/gloves unless I don't need the ias then it's cc/cd.

I don't mind skipping cc on lacunis if you get decent ehp on them. I used str/vit/ar lacunis for a long time. You made the mistake of not getting cc here though when you desperately need it. I would add it to lacunis or sub the MH ring.

I don't like your weapons. EF's need to have higher aps regardless of which hand you use them. EF MHs can be ok at low budget but you need a fast OH to hit higher breakpoints to make use of it. If you play higher mp than your tDPS dictates, be prepared to chase a bunch of feared monsters.

At your tDPS you need 3 slots of LS to farm without having to kite.
Phat. Doesn't WW tick based off the weapon about to be swung? (opposite of the weapon last swung).



This is the part of nubtro's work that is confusing beyond comprehension for me. WW accounts for a small percentage of total dps so I haven't bothered to fully understand this. As far as sprint nados, its the last weapon swung AFAIK. This is what I was referring to, not WW.

The comment quoted above is when you are actively WWing the weapons alternate to calc each tic of WW damage, but the alternating weapons also change the sprint nado tick speed.

this mechanic is one of the main reasons i moved away from a mace/dagger combo. I found I lost a wrath enough due to swinging mace last and moving to next mob. nados would be ticking at 2.0 vs 2.5 and I would have over half my wrath timer gone. I tried checking swings before moving from pack but that slows down the run if forced to do it after every white mob.


I think you might have to run your theory through nubtro.

I don't have the same impression that WW alternates Nado's tick rates
I discussed this with Nubtro and he ran a test for me. The TLDR version is that your RLTW ticks at the rate of your on-screen APS values (which alternates between MH / OH).

https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6037344497?page=9#169

If you use EF, likely your MH APS tick speed is > OH APS tick speed. This is actually what makes ability like Ground Stomp / Rend so good. It ALWAYS defaults back to MH attack speed which you can activate sprint immediately to get maximum RLTW ticks without worrying about which weapon you actually last swung with.
Edited by DAKKON#6113 on 1/14/2013 6:24 PM PST
Hey man,

I would like to ask for your opinion regarding the math, I have a 5% Cold damage 29% bonus damage vs elites SOJ. I would like to replace my hellfire ring but doing so would reduce my paper dps to -35k, I can't replace my other rare ring because that would decrease my APS and right now my minimum APS is at 2.87 with WoTB and 2.53 without WoTB.

Now my questions is it worth it to replace my Hellfire with the Cold SOJ?

Thanks man!
I discussed this with Nubtro and he ran a test for me. The TLDR version is that your RLTW ticks with tick at the rate of your on-screen APS values (which alternates between MH / OH).

https://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6037344497?page=9#169

If you use EF, likely your MH APS tick speed is > OH APS tick speed. This is actually what makes ability like Ground Stomp / Rend so good. It ALWAYS defaults back to MH attack speed which you can activate sprint immediately to get maximum RLTW ticks without worrying about which weapon you actually last swung with.


I think what nubtro means is that sprint locks onto the displayed APS when it is cast, and when you're WWing, the displayed APS alternates constantly. So you can never really determine what tick rate your RLTW is based off.

Edit: Overpower doesn't seem to follow this MH reversion I think ._.

Pretty much why I went two maces as well. >.> But yeah
Edited by Uberjager#6563 on 1/14/2013 6:37 PM PST
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Hey man,

I would like to ask for your opinion regarding the math, I have a 5% Cold damage 29% bonus damage vs elites SOJ. I would like to replace my hellfire ring but doing so would reduce my paper dps to -35k, I can't replace my other rare ring because that would decrease my APS and right now my minimum APS is at 2.87 with WoTB and 2.53 without WoTB.

Now my questions is it worth it to replace my Hellfire with the Cold SOJ?

Thanks man!


Yes, a decent SOJ is always going to outdps another ring on elites. Since trash dps doesn't matter nearly as much SOJ would be a big boost for you, and it'd help with the fear proc from your MH SOJ.

Your gear is really good, but I think you might be overdoing it on IAS. You're giving up a lot of CD (only on your belt/amulet besides your weapons) to hit another breakpoint. You might try changing your gear around in d3rawr to see if dropping a breakpoint (IE going for 2.5 MH with WOTB) and stacking more crit is the way to go.

Other than that, only two things that jump out at me looking at your gear: your MH damage range isn't that good (mostly because of the IAS on your MH) and your offhand doesn't have the best speed. IIRC if you go with an IAS dagger over a non IAS sword, you can probably drop some IAS and still hit 2.5 APS MH 2.86 APS OH with WOTB up, while picking up a lot more CD/str.

Don't take these suggestions as gospel though, just try them out in d3rawr and see if it's a nice dps bump or not.
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I think you might have to run your theory through nubtro.

I don't have the same impression that WW alternates Nado's tick rates


This may be true, but functionally, you are spamming sprint, so it evens out to 50-50. I guess one could always only swing their fast weapon, then start sprinting, then start ww'ing and never hit sprint until you stop and repeat the cycle. IMO, this level of micro is more headache than it is worth.

I just read the link DAKKON provided and still have no clearer understanding. I can only judge based on my personal experience with using a 2.0/2.5 setup. While WWing and spamming sprint on an elite pack, i have zero fury problems. Occasionally, running from one white mob to the next, I get slower ticks and may or may not have fury problems by the time I'm at the next pack. While the cost of eliminating this nuisance and using an EF is significant, it is worth the ability to completely ignore which weapon swung when.
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Hey man,

I would like to ask for your opinion regarding the math, I have a 5% Cold damage 29% bonus damage vs elites SOJ. I would like to replace my hellfire ring but doing so would reduce my paper dps to -35k, I can't replace my other rare ring because that would decrease my APS and right now my minimum APS is at 2.87 with WoTB and 2.53 without WoTB.

Now my questions is it worth it to replace my Hellfire with the Cold SOJ?

Thanks man!


I agree with texasdan. An SOJ will always outperform any ring in mid tier sets. Not everyone agrees that tdps vs elites is the only thing that matters, but as you push MP, elite hp gets ridiculous.

The only situation I would pass on SOJ is in the higher tier sets where you need that slot to hit obscene breakpoints. I'm sure there is a configuration that may allow you to use an SOJ in that situation and maintain obscenely high aps but you start to run out of IAS slots.
Hey PhatPhoEater, check out this Nado dps vs APS chart:
http://i47.tinypic.com/wkwue.jpg

- you get best dps after reach breakpoint
- then slowly lost dps (up to 10%) untill next breakpoint

The multiplier is base on tDPS, with 3.5 nado and 110% WW. which very close to real dps (perfect dps should ne 5 nado and 145% WW)
Edited by huanAK#6843 on 1/14/2013 7:12 PM PST
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