Diablo® III

Phat's budget Double Nado and gear reference

I wanna see if I understand this perfectly

If i have an EF with +0.25 to AS in my OH and a mace in my MH
in order to achieve 2.5/2.5 AS in WoTB, I need four gear items with +8% IAS, for a total of +32% IAS?
you would need two 8% and two 9% at the very least
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I wanna see if I understand this perfectly

If i have an EF with +0.25 to AS in my OH and a mace in my MH
in order to achieve 2.5/2.5 AS in WoTB, I need four gear items with +8% IAS, for a total of +32% IAS?


for an EF with .25aps you need 33ias on gear to hit 2.5 fully buffed. for a .24aps version you need 34ias.
could use some help on my barb. I'm on a tight budget. 10mil. My short term goal is to break 2.0 and 2.5 breakpoints. the easiest route seems to drop my non ias ring for one with 7% but i lose a bunch of str/armor unless i get a crazy good one. what are your thoughts on this and possibly other upgrades such as bracers? or long term outlook?
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01/16/2013 12:28 PMPosted by YEAHRIGHT
could use some help on my barb. I'm on a tight budget. 10mil. My short term goal is to break 2.0 and 2.5 breakpoints. the easiest route seems to drop my non ias ring for one with 7% but i lose a bunch of str/armor unless i get a crazy good one. what are your thoughts on this and possibly other upgrades such as bracers? or long term outlook?


several ways to do this. you can get 14ias on gear. I wouldn't do this since your weapons aren't worth using. I would rather go mace/dagger combo which requires 27IAS. If you do this, you need to replace that MH since it has low damage range and your OH since you have no LS.

With your ias dagger, you need 32ias on gear to hit 2.86 without an EF. I don't know if this is worth it since you lack LS and str. Getting these stats on an IAS dagger costs buku bucks.

Another inexpensive way to boost aps as i describe in the third post of this thread is an EF OH and mace MH.

YOu have a lot of raw dps on the OH ring. Unfortunately, 7ias is a terrible roll and completely ruins its usefulness. I strongly recommend against relying on rings like your MH ring for ehp. You will have a hard time pushing dps when you rely on 1 of only a few dps slots for ehp.
Edited by PhatPhoEater#1370 on 1/16/2013 2:37 PM PST
Thanks the for advice. Could you expand on what's wrong with my gloves and weapons please? My gloves have reasonable cc, ar, str and vit. My OH weapon is too slow, but it does have ias and cd. The MH weapon has ias, cd and socket. What am I not understanding?

I got an OH ring with ias and cc following your comments. It took me from 88 to 94k paper dps, I haven't checked the tdps.

I do have some sustain - 318 loh and 442 life regen. Now that I'm approaching 100k dps, I'll start looking for ls instead.

I take your point that the runes are wrong. It's a compromise. Since I can't permawrath, I figure that 15s of heavy damage is better than less damage over a slightly longer period. Also I play a lot of public games, and although some players are well above me, the majority are below and can't keep up with permawrath pace. I wonder if permawrath is ever practical for public games?

Thanks again
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Thanks the for advice. Could you expand on what's wrong with my gloves and weapons please? My gloves have reasonable cc, ar, str and vit. My OH weapon is too slow, but it does have ias and cd. The MH weapon has ias, cd and socket. What am I not understanding?


If you read my third post about ideal MHs, you would understand why your weapon is not ideal. Actually, I never bothered to explain why MHs require big damage ranges, but that is basic DT info which I didn't go over. sprint nados damage per tick is determined by the MH weapon range, not big number dps.

As to the OH, it is too slow. You can stack all the crit/str you want on there. Making it work for permawrath will require too much IAS on gear. STacking crit/str on a slow OH is good for paper dps, but hitting low aps breakpoints makes the set less than optimal, especially if it means you cannot keep permawrath.

Your gloves have only cc. You need to maximize your dps potential by stacking as many dps mods as you can afford. Gloves with 150str, 8ias, 9+cc are a few mil. If you read my first several posts, you'd understand why this is important to the build.

You don't have to agree with my ideas about double nado gear sets. I'm not here to change your mind. If you dont want to permawrath thats fine. If you want to play in pubs thats fine. You can play the game however you want.

If you understand what I'm saying and want help with specific options, add me in game and ask. I wouldn't have bought that OH ring you purchased. I don't want people to gear poorly then blame me for messing up their set. I never stated what exact stats to buy in my original posts since each set requires a specific distribution of stats dependent on budget.
If you understand what I'm saying and want help with specific options, add me in game and ask. I wouldn't have bought that OH ring you purchased. I don't want people to gear poorly then blame me for messing up their set. I never stated what exact stats to buy in my original posts since each set requires a specific distribution of stats dependent on budget.


I won't blame you for my mistakes, definitely not. I really appreciate the effort you put into these forums, and even if I don't follow it, you give great advice. I'll see if you're online when I am, but since I live in New Zealand our playing times may not overlap much (assuming you're in the US).
This is a really helpful and detailed guide, thanks Pho!

Had a couple of questions I was hoping you can address:
1) I know this guide is aimed at budget builds, but for top end gear, would you still recommend getting an EF? It sounds like you said the only good thing about EF is the +0.25 attk but otherwise implies its not ideal?

2) Is there any significant advantage aiming for higher BPs like 2.5 or 2.8?

3) When you talk about the tick breakpoints, do ou mean that both weapons need to have 2.32APS or just the offhand?

4) If you want to do MP10 ubers and farming, what kind of DPS and eHP requirements do you recommend?

5) At over 200k paper DPS, is 3% lifesteal sufficient to do MP10?

6) Not sure if I missed it in your guide, but what is the ideal total crit chance to aim for?
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This is a really helpful and detailed guide, thanks Pho!

Had a couple of questions I was hoping you can address:
1) I know this guide is aimed at budget builds, but for top end gear, would you still recommend getting an EF? It sounds like you said the only good thing about EF is the +0.25 attk but otherwise implies its not ideal?
2) Is there any significant advantage aiming for higher BPs like 2.5 or 2.8?
3) When you talk about the tick breakpoints, do ou mean that both weapons need to have 2.32APS or just the offhand?
4) If you want to do MP10 ubers and farming, what kind of DPS and eHP requirements do you recommend?
5) At over 200k paper DPS, is 3% lifesteal sufficient to do MP10?
6) Not sure if I missed it in your guide, but what is the ideal total crit chance to aim for?


1. high budget builds have a lot of options. I still think an EF can play a role here but it can go in the MH or the OH. My ideal setup would be massive damage range EF with str/socket/crit and an IAS dagger with LS/crit/socket/str. As you can imagine this would cost a ridiculous amount of gold. Other great options are an EF OH with str/crit/socket and an IAS axe MH with big stats, also very expensive. Both setups will hit higher aps than 2.5/2.5 with just 4 slots of IAS. Dakkon also proves that a skorn is viable with 7 slots of IAS.

2. Hitting 2.23 makes permawrath easy, hitting 2.5 makes it easier. Utility aside, higher aps also means more tDPS. If a budget barb wants to break into the mid tier tDPS range, they cannot just rely on 2.23 and cc/cd. IMO 2.86 only makes sense with an EF MH and Dagger OH, but like i said above. IMO a worthy MH EF will cost a lot of gold.

3. Both should 2.23 for easy wrath. I also mention 2/2.5 is perfectly viable but less reliable permawrath, especially for people new to the build.

4. I'm not an advocate of doing mp10uber solo. it's a waste of portals and gear costs start to get out of hand. Same with mp10 farm. I can do mp10 but it isnt fast enough to consider it farming. I'm not sure what minimum stats are but with my 800mil set, I hit 800k ehp+dodge fully buffed and 1.4m v all and 1.8m v elite tDPS. I help carry MP10 ubers with another DH.

5. Not vs RD, with new patch changes it may become a moot point. IMO paper dps isnt the gauge you should use. 200k paper without soj probably only hits 1.5mil tdps v elites. 200k with SOJ probably hits 2.3mil vs elites. Big difference in sustain with that kind of dps boost. This is assuming a well optimized set. A poorly optimized 200k SOJ set may not even break 2mil v elites.

6. For budget sets 25-30cc on gear.
Hey man,

I lucked out on a pretty solid IAS hellfire roll last night and scooped up a bargain priced 9% IAS ring on the AH for 10m, so now that I've gotten a substantial IAS boost overnight, I have just one last question about attack speed breakpoints.

Using this spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjPQvt06HFyJdHJjY1JSVEo5dkI5QUttMzY1Q0pWR2c#gid=64

I put in my ASPD stats (0.21 EF and 34% IAS from 4 slots of gear right now), and it says to hit the next breakpoints on my mainhand and offhand, I need 43% IAS and 41% IAS.

Does this mean that if I pick up a new piece of gear (amulet or Inna's temperance) with 9% IAS, then I'll hit the maximum (or at least realistic maximum) breakpoints achievable? Just want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly.

If that is correct, which route would you suggest? Getting a 9% IAS/crit/avg damage/str amulet vs. Inna's pants. The reason I ask is with Inna's pants, then I can also get the 12% movement speed, so I can ditch the movement speed requirement on my boots and upgrade to a 240+ strength pair of iceclimbers. Of course with Inna's pants, I'll be taking a pretty significant hit in EHP since I'll be losing the resist all and probably some vit.

Judging by your profile it looks like you went with the Inna/Iceclimber combo as well, but your other gear is much better than mine so I jsut wanted to make sure that set-up made sense for me from an overall effectiveness as well as an economic standpoint.

Thoughts?

Thanks again for all the help man, your post really inspired me to take my barb to the next level thanks to your explanation of the IAS mechanics and breakpoints.
Edited by Blayze#1534 on 1/16/2013 9:47 PM PST
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I'm not familiar with that spreadsheet. I either manually calculate IAS requirements or use d3rawr if i'm lazy. I can tell you with a .21 EF you arent going to hit 2.5 with 4 slots of IAS. This is why it is imperative to get a .24aps+ EF, which requires exactly how much IAS you have currently.

IMO you start to lose slot efficiency if you require 5 slots to hit a breakpoint you can usually reach in 4. You start having to make decisions between bad ammy (rather have cc/cd due to higher possible rolls) or expensive low ehp pants (innas).

I hope you didn't buy that EF after reading my post. I stated very clearly what kind of EF is required to make this work. Unfortunately, there isn't a simple solution to your current set. Your current weapons will work but they aren't optimal. I wouldn't add another slot of IAS just to chase more tDPS if you have to give up a lot of EHP. Changing the ammy may not give much of a tdps boost even if you do hit 2.5/2.86 since you lose a big chunk of crit damage.

I would use d3rawr.com/d and see if doing nothing is your best move. You can just save for a better EF either for OH or MH use. OH being the cheaper of the 2 options.
I'm not familiar with that spreadsheet. I either manually calculate IAS requirements or use d3rawr if i'm lazy. I can tell you with a .21 EF you arent going to hit 2.5 with 4 slots of IAS. This is why it is imperative to get a .24aps+ EF, which requires exactly how much IAS you have currently.

IMO you start to lose slot efficiency if you require 5 slots to hit a breakpoint you can usually reach in 4. You start having to make decisions between bad ammy (rather have cc/cd due to higher possible rolls) or expensive low ehp pants (innas).

I hope you didn't buy that EF after reading my post. I stated very clearly what kind of EF is required to make this work. Unfortunately, there isn't a simple solution to your current set. Your current weapons will work but they aren't optimal. I wouldn't add another slot of IAS just to chase more tDPS if you have to give up a lot of EHP. Changing the ammy may not give much of a tdps boost even if you do hit 2.5/2.86 since you lose a big chunk of crit damage.

I would use d3rawr.com/d and see if doing nothing is your best move. You can just save for a better EF either for OH or MH use. OH being the cheaper of the 2 options.


I've had this EF forever, I picked it up way back in the day when EF was out of favor while everyone was avoiding it like the plague because of the fear proc. I know my gear isn't optimal but I'm broke and the situation is what it is, so I have to work with what I've got man. I have no plans to change my EF, or change any other gear - it will require too much farming that I just don't have the appetite for.

I'm already on the cusp of reaching the 2.23/2.5 breakpoints for MH and OH - I can't stop here or the IAS gear I've already accumulated goes to waste. I'm going to farm and save up for one more piece of IAS (bringing the total to 5) to get to the next MH/OH breakpoint (assuming that spreadsheet is accurate) - the choice really boils down to getting the 9% IAS from a decent but not-so-great amulet, or going the Inna's pants route (survivability farming MP6 isn't an issue for me). Just wanted to get your thoughts on which route is better from a holistic perspective to get that last 9%.
Edited by Blayze#1534 on 1/16/2013 10:04 PM PST
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How much gold do you have? It might be worthwhile to look at weapon options.
01/16/2013 10:11 PMPosted by PhatPhoEater
How much gold do you have? It might be worthwhile to look at weapon options.


I've got about 20M. I can easily farm another 10-20M if I were motivated enough and there was somethign I really had my eye on.

I have enough to upgrade the offhand from a sword to a dagger to gain APSD (I presume that's what you're thinking), and I've thought about that option too, but it won't matter - The speed increase from going from sword to dagger in the OH will be wasted since I'd still need that 9% IAS increase to get my MH to the 2.23 breakpoint... and coincidentally, that same 9% will get my current sword offhand to the 2.50 breakpoint anyway, which would make upgrading to a dagger redundant, so it all works out.
Edited by Blayze#1534 on 1/17/2013 5:52 AM PST
Hey man,

I would like to ask for your opinion regarding the math, I have a 5% Cold damage 29% bonus damage vs elites SOJ. I would like to replace my hellfire ring but doing so would reduce my paper dps to -35k, I can't replace my other rare ring because that would decrease my APS and right now my minimum APS is at 2.87 with WoTB and 2.53 without WoTB.

Now my questions is it worth it to replace my Hellfire with the Cold SOJ?

Thanks man!


I agree with texasdan. An SOJ will always outperform any ring in mid tier sets. Not everyone agrees that tdps vs elites is the only thing that matters, but as you push MP, elite hp gets ridiculous.

The only situation I would pass on SOJ is in the higher tier sets where you need that slot to hit obscene breakpoints. I'm sure there is a configuration that may allow you to use an SOJ in that situation and maintain obscenely high aps but you start to run out of IAS slots.


Hey man followed both your suggestions, replaced one of my rings with a cold soj and traded some IAS with CD, so far it has been great although my paper DPS did decrease (from 219k to 192k lol!) but my farming efficiency was a lot better!

Right now I'm sitting at 2.66/2.88 aps, I still have excess IAS to shed off from my current mainhand EF and get one with a 0.24 aps with damage of 620-1200 but it would cost me an arm and a leg to get one. I was thinking of either upgrading my main hand or get a Mempo with at least 4.5 crit to increase my EHP but so far I don't have survivability problems farming in MP5.
Thanks Pho for the detailed advice!

btw is d3rawr.com/d not calculating APS correctly? or the number is shows just doesnt include the DW 15% and WOTB 25% IAS bonuses?
hi phat!

please have a look at my gear and let me know your thoughts:-
any cost-efficient upgrades which will give good bang-for-buck? not aiming towards a BiS gearset or to farm MP10, for the same reasons you outlined above (cost-effectiveness..).

if i can eventually get to a point where it makes sense and is efficient to farm somewhere in the mp5-7 range, i'd be pretty happy to stick to that. i'm currently doing mp3, although mp4 and mp5 are doable with this gear/spec... my current dps makes it feel like 3 would be as far as i could push it and still do anything resembling an efficient run.

already have a cold SoJ (28% vs elites) waiting in my stash, once i can get my overall gear quality up to snuff then i intend to swap to it.

i've been thinking about upgrading weapons first (MH with a better dmg range + CD, and a OH EF with LS), so that i can get my APS past 2.25 for smoother runs and have more dps for higher MP levels. EF would also open up gearing options when it comes to other slots

i know there's a few ways to skin a cat so i'd like to have your input :)

also, for medium level barbarian gearsets.. what would you consider to be the "optimal" amount of CD to aim for? currently have 539%, i know if money is no object then more is always better.. but for my gear level have i overdone it a bit? (e.g. compromising MH dmg range) :)
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Thanks Pho for the detailed advice!

btw is d3rawr.com/d not calculating APS correctly? or the number is shows just doesnt include the DW 15% and WOTB 25% IAS bonuses?


It includes the dw bonus but you have to add the buffs in the bottom left box.
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01/17/2013 12:41 AMPosted by minori
also, for medium level barbarian gearsets.. what would you consider to be the "optimal" amount of CD to aim for? currently have 539%, i know if money is no object then more is always better.. but for my gear level have i overdone it a bit? (e.g. compromising MH dmg range) :)


I don't look at minimum CD requirements since it isn't needed to make permawrath work. I always get permawrath working first, then add CD. I've found that for lower budgets, it makes sense to stop at 2.23 and add more CD instead of 2 more slots of IAS to hit 2.5. Once you start reaching tDPS in the 1mil+ range, it starts to make sense to reach for the 2.5 aps.

Looking at your gear I'm guessing permawrath is somewhat inconsistent since your fully buffed aps is 2/2.23.

Fully buffed with opks,br, wrath, you hit 826k vs elites and 2/2.23 aps. You are right in the mp3 zone. IMO, MP 4 fast clears start around the 1mil+ mark. What is your budget? If you have any interest in PvP it might be a better idea to just upgrade enough to farm mp3 alkaizers in the 10-12min range and save gold until they have more definitive PvP details.

I think it would take alot of tinkering to get better tdps AND hit 2.5 aps. The cost of jumping MP and doing fast runs is quite large. I'd say for an MP4 set you'd need around 100m+. EF with str/socket/LS will be a tdps drop for you without any other gear changes but it would let you have easier permawrath. An instant tDPS increase may be a 1.5aps OH since that would put you into 2/2.5.

Let me know what kind of gold you want to drop and we can go over more specific options.
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