Diablo® III

Fix other monks passives, not OwE

TLDR: OwE is used by the majority of monks because there aren't any other great alternatives. The fact that StI is still the most used passive for Monks, even after Blizzard cut its effectiveness by 50%, shows that there aren't great choices and that they need to focus on bringing the other ones up to snuff.

---------------
One with Everything (OwE) has been mentioned for a while now as a passive that Blizzard would like to change. You can find the rationale here, in the 1.05 Defensive Changes blog: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/7155884/Developer_Journal_Defensive_Bonuses_and_Monster_Damage-9_14_2012

The strongest monk defensive skill is One With Everything. We've mentioned it before and it bears repeating - this is something we would like to fix someday, but we're going to take our time. Changes to One With Everything heavily impact existing monk gear. We still plan on addressing this in the future but will do so in a way that does not invalidate the gear monks have invested in.


OwE isn't being changed in 1.07, but it is still on the list:

Wyatt: One With Everything is not changing in 1.0.7. We still recognize it as an issue, but 1. We do not want to make any change that invalidates the existing gear people have acquired. 2. We have to weigh the cost of any change vs. the benefit of doing so. Does One With Everything feel mandatory to many monks? Yes (though not as much as it used to be). Is fixing it urgent? No.


Basically, Blizzard doesn't like the idea of "mandatory" skills. This is why they reduced the amount of damage that monsters deal in 1.05, so they could change defensive abilities and allow players to choose options that were more offensive oriented. This is why they nerfed Seize the Initiative (StI).

Except something funny happened after they did that ... more monks still use StI than use OwE. The reason for this is rather simple - it's always been easier to get more resists (since you can double stack) and harder to get armor. Therefore, for the people that can afford to do so, it's easier/better to drop some resist and end up at that golden 10:1 ratio that it is to drop a bunch of armor.

According to Diabloprogress, here are the top skills used by the top 500 Heroscore players (the order is exactly the same for top 500 DPS players as well, though the percentages change slightly):
1) Sweeping Wind: 99%
2) Fists of Thunder: 94%
3) Seize the Initiative: 88.6%
4) Mantra of Conviction: 86%
5) Serenity: 82.8%
6) Blinding Flash: 79.6%
7) Breath of Heaven: 78.2%
8) One with Everything: 69%

No other Monk skill, passive or active, is above 30%.

In fact, Monks are the only class that have this little build diversity; every other class has at least 10 skills used over 30%, and most have over 12 (Wizard have 10, but 2 others at 29.5%; everyone else over 12). Hopefully the announced changes to spirit spenders takes care of the active skill diversity, but I am concerned that there won't be any changes to Monk passives.

The problem isn't that monks can't survive without OwE; plenty of well geared monks do so. The problem is that there is very little incentive to not use it, since there aren't many other great alternatives.

The nerf to StI is the perfect example of this. Blizzard thought that by reducing its effectiveness, monks would be able to move away from it and pick other enticing passives. Except we don't have any, so nerfing StI didn't have the intended affect by any stretch of the imagination. Did you know that Monk is the only class that doesn't have 15 Passives?

What they really need to do is just beef up the rest of our passives so there is something enticing people to gear out of OwE. I look at Barbarian passives and drool. What if there were a passive for lifesteal like Barbarians have ... wouldn't that be worth thinking about switching for? Or what about a passive that gave 5% crit chance and 50% crit dmg (they should make it CC and AS for us) ... that would be an extra 22k dps for me, a 15% increase; wouldn't that be worth thinking about switching for? What if we had something similar to Weapons Master where we'd gain Attack Speed, Crit Chance, and something else (chance to proc cyclone? chance to regen spirit?) depending on the type of weapon we used? 10% crit is 19k dmg for me, a 13% paper increase and much larger in effective DPS because of the extra cyclones; wouldn't that be worth thinking about switching for?

Please do not just look at the usage rate of OwE and think it needs to be changed. Please dig a little a deeper and realize that usage rates of OwE and StI are because the other options are lackluster. Please do not just change how Spirit Spenders work without taking a deeper look at Monk abilities overall.

Please fix the rest of our passives.
Reply Quote
Posts: 2,146
View profile
buff the other stuff to make them more attractive. Give us options. Just because OWE is nice and everyone uses it, doesn't make it OP. Without it, monks are dead. Buff the other stuff so we have to think about what we choose.
Reply Quote
Thats so true, we have not one single offensive passive which could increase the damage...
Reply Quote
I got tired of relying on OWE so I did a little tweaking. I have 650 AR without OWE. The list Piffle posted is spot on. The majority of Monk skills are garbage and we're pretty much forced into 1...MAYBE 3 builds. The only explanation is that none of the devs play D3.
Reply Quote
Posts: 1,105
View profile
From a Blizzard Dev recently (can be found on diablofans.com).

Wyatt: One With Everything is not changing in 1.0.7. We still recognize it as an issue, but 1. We do not want to make any change that invalidates the existing gear people have acquired. 2. We have to weigh the cost of any change vs. the benefit of doing so. Does One With Everything feel mandatory to many monks? Yes (though not as much as it used to be). Is fixing it urgent? No.
Edited by the5rites#1313 on 1/13/2013 1:17 PM PST
Reply Quote
90 Tauren Paladin
16435
Posts: 6,427
That's funny they don't want to change OwE due to people needing to regear....guess they made enough $$$ off the AS change to suffice for awhile.
Reply Quote
Did you know that Monk is the only class that doesn't have 15 Passives?


JW designed monks. The 15th passive got scrapped like arena PvP.
Reply Quote
01/13/2013 01:10 PMPosted by st4cks
I got tired of relying on OWE so I did a little tweaking. I have 650 AR without OWE. The list Piffle posted is spot on. The majority of Monk skills are garbage and we're pretty much forced into 1...MAYBE 3 builds. The only explanation is that none of the devs play D3.


Same here. I was certain they were going to nerf OWE this patch, so I slowly built up my AR to about 645 without OWE. Now that they're not going to be improving our other passives, I'm kind of pissed because there really isn't a third passive slot that I'm keen on taking (it certainly wasn't worth the trouble I went through). The problem isn't that OWE is overpowered, it's that none of the other passives are worth taking. If they made it so we had 6 really really good passives instead of only 2, you would see people drop OWE naturally in order to pick up that extra passive. OWE would still remain a great option for people who didn't have the money to buy AR gear.
Reply Quote
give monks passive spirit regen. Make IAS affect spirit regen that way TR isn't killed. scrap all our useless passives and replace them with offensive/sheet DPS increasing ones.
Reply Quote
From a Blizzard Dev recently (can be found on diablofans.com).

Wyatt: One With Everything is not changing in 1.0.7. We still recognize it as an issue, but 1. We do not want to make any change that invalidates the existing gear people have acquired. 2. We have to weigh the cost of any change vs. the benefit of doing so. Does One With Everything feel mandatory to many monks? Yes (though not as much as it used to be). Is fixing it urgent? No.

Yes, I included that in the OP.

That's part of the reason I am concerned. They still think the issue is that OwE is too good. They have it completely backwards.

I don't know why they think that after nerfing StI didn't affect how many people use it at all.
Reply Quote
01/13/2013 01:24 PMPosted by Gorthon
Did you know that Monk is the only class that doesn't have 15 Passives?


JW designed monks. The 15th passive got scrapped like arena PvP.


oh, and worth noting, whereas monks have 14 passives, barbs have 16. the other 3 classes ave 15.. lol.
Reply Quote
up for this post. agreed.
Reply Quote
Bump for truth, justice, and the Ivgorod way.
Reply Quote
OWE can double your resists or for a tenth the cost, give you similar resists to the other 4 classes. I don't even bother "double dipping" on alot of my gear because my resists are already very high and I can simply get more vitality and dps instead. Yes, I know my monk is a tank and he will stay that way till he gets a complete overhaul of his skills and passives. My barb is my main because he's more fun and has more options, especially that lifesteal belt and passive.
Reply Quote
Agree 100%. I would love for them to just out and say we aren't touching it ever. It makes gearing up as a monk very frustrating having this uncertainty. Was it a good design decision to have a passive that affects your gearing this much? No. But too late now, Just leave it be.

One problem is we have too many passives to increase dodge. Dodge is already worse mitigation than armor and resistances. We need a passive that actually makes dodging better. How about gaining spirit with each dodge? This would open up more build diversity as people might pick up some of the runes with dodge bonuses. (How many people have you seen or heard about using lightning flash, blinding speed, or wall of wind?) It would also give more value to dex, as it is inferior to strength and intel.

Another problem is no attack speed or crit chance buff. Not sure how a dex based class was made and those weren't included. Either of these could be linked to your dodge chance in some way as another option.

Spirit gain passives aren't good enough. Chant of resonance should just be like 20% reduction of all spirit costs. We need something that scales. Exalted soul could be 100 energy and 2 spirit per second. Getting a high spirit per second requires way too many sacrifices on high mp.

Would also love to see a passive that encourages fist weapons and daibos. I would rework guardian path kind of like weapons master. Could keep bonuses as they are, and you gain something small if you are using 2 fists or daibo, like barbs gain for using mighty weapon. Too many monks running around with swords, maces, and skorns IMO. (I know many monks would feel shafted with their current gear, but i think it would really just even out weapon balance a little bit.)

Combination strikes is a bad mechanic, and doesn't even work the way most players think. Change it for bonus when doing combinations of spirit generating and spirit spending attacks. My proposal would be to let us unload a really high damage spirit spender after attacking three times with a spirit generator. Give us the feeling of actually doing combos. (This is what made the system for assassin in D2 so satisfying).

Remove guiding light - no explanation needed here.

Here is my list of monk passives.
Leave as is:
1. OWE
2. STI
3. Resolve
4. Fleet footed
5. Pacifism - has pvp potential
6. Beacon of ytar - good enough if other monk skills were tweaked correctly, and pvp potential
7. Transcendence - good enough, especially if we get some more spirit gain options
8. Near death experience - hardcore and pvp potential

Change/Add
9. Chant of resonance - reduce spirit costs by 20% and adds 1 second to 3 second mantra buff
10. Exalted soul - 100 energy, 2 spirit per second, and monk spawns with full energy (gives this skill a use in pvp)
11. Sixth sense - increases both crit chance and attack speed by 10% of your dodge chance.
12. Guardians path - keep bonuses the same. Attacks with dual fists or daibos gains additional 2 spirit per attack (would be 2.7 with daibos b/c of 35%)
13. Combination strikes - increases damage of your next spirit spending ability by 40% when done within 3 seconds of the third strike of a spirit generator
14. New - gain 3 spirit for dodging an attack (or whatever amount is balanced). This would not be OP with blinding light, since you won't be dodging attacks while enemies are stunned.
Edited by Sheldor#1759 on 1/15/2013 10:55 AM PST
Reply Quote
Posts: 7,260
View profile
Theres a few changes I think would be good for monks:

1. 2H weapons made more viable outside of when using TR in low mp levels
2. More diversity among passives

These solutions could even be tied together, but definitely wouldn't be required to.

One way to "fix" the first problem would be to make more "if, then; else" passives like Guardian's Path. Where each weapon type is accounted for and offers a unique bonus. One such idea could be to give dual wielding increased critical chance, 2Hers increased attack speed (or APS), and shield users critical damage. Basically a way of increasing what each weapon type lacks the most.

Another way would be to make a much larger variety of viable 2H weapons. Currently Skorn is so clearly the favorite and almost always is the best option.

As far as #2, theres quite a few different routes that could potentially work. We already have one (Combination Strike) passive which is based on certain conditions mixed with time. I personally find this type of duration buff based on certain conditions mechanic to be very intriguing and engaging gameplay wise. We already have the most forms of buffing ourselves and our allies, why not add more? :) Something that increases critical chance or damage seems like the logical choice, although other options like increased spirit regen or armor/all resist could also work I'm sure.

Another option for "fixing" our passives is a little bit more liberal and likely won't ever be changed, but I can dream right? It would be simply to change specific elite affixes from being unable to be dodged or blocked, to being able to have either form of mitigation work against them. I'm not sure how this would effect other game mechanics or difficulty, but it would probably require an increase in the latter of some sort, in some other area.

Theres also the obvious solution that quite a lot of people have asked for. And thats simply to have better/more offensive passives. I personally think we'd be fine with one/no more, but I'm obviously in the minority too. As you said, the most used passives are both defensive. This is fundamentally flawed (albeit unintended) design especially considering how much balance they claim to desire. Conversely, 3 of the other 4 classes (excluding WD, their #1 used build relies typically on 2 resource passives) generally favor offensive passives over defensive. Ideally I would think all 5 classes would/should have a better balance of offense and defense. Of course thats MUCH easier said than done and ideas for solving that "problem" are beyond me atm lol. But I do (and many others seem to as well) think OUR class would benefit greatly from having more balance offensively and defensively from skills and passives.
Reply Quote
This needs to happen. I'm too damned tired for suggestions, but yeah....what ^they^ said!
Reply Quote
Posts: 4,043
View profile
Well stated!
100% agree.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]