Diablo® III

Is BLZ going to nerf black weapons (calamity ... etc)?

Hello,

At first sorry for my english :)

I studied this fix long time this afternoon.
This is the result of my thinking :

There is two "kind" of damage :
- a range like you can see on a white item (http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/centurion-spear) :
For example we will take the worst stat, it will be [209-310]
- a bonus like you can see on my off hand (http://eu.battle.net/d3/fr/profile/Umbrah-2672/hero/6180072) :
+237 +343

So for me, we CAN'T just add the first to the second (it's like carrot and apple :)).
But we can convert the second to the first :
As it's done for damage bonus on amulet, ring or ruby gem :
the two bonus +237,+343 wil be equal to the range [237-580]
580 is 237+343.

Now we have two ranges :)
So I think, if they fix the issue, the new range of my off hand will be [209+237-310+580] =
[446-890]
with the +%dam bonus, my off hand will do [628-1254] instead of [633-1118]
the two min damage is pretty similar, it's only because in my example I took the worst stats (that's means the min damage of my off hand isn't the worst).

So I think it's not a nerf, but a buff :)
because my offhand's dps will be ((628+1254)/2)*1.2=1129,2 instead of 1050,7.

I think the issue is :
ATM, the max damage of the weapon (ex : mine is 1118) is equal to
(centurion Spear's min damage + min dam affix + max dam affix)*%damage

=> (209 + 237 + 343)*1.41 = 1112.49 (almost 1118, again, it's only because I didn't get the worst stats on my min dam :))

And it should be (centurion Spear's max damage + min dam affix + max dam affix)*%damage
=> 310 + 237 + 343
It's not an error because they add min dam affix + max dam affix to determine the max dam of a weapon.
They do an error, because they use the centurion Spear's min damage instead of centurion Spear's max damage to calculate the max dam of a weapon.

It's only supposition, but optimist supposition :)
I am not sure if it's clear :)
But if someone who understood can translate in the true english. It could be nice :)

If nobody understand what i mean, i can try to explain better :) Just let me know :)
Edited by Umbrah#2672 on 1/18/2013 10:33 AM PST
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So I think it's not a nerf, but a buff :)

i don't think here look

your spear minimum = 633
633/1.41 - 237 = 211.9 base

confirm
(212+237)*1.41 = 633.09 (rounds to 633) <---- your spear states that as minimum

new max = (212+237)+1+343 = 793 *1.41 = 1118.13 (rounds to 1118) <-- your spear stats that as maximumm

dps = (633.09+1118.13)*.5*1.20= 1050.732 (rounds to 1050.7) <---your spear stats that as dps

I think your spear maximum should be (921-935) a small nerf to 1118

(310+ 343)*1.41 to (320+343)*1.41
920.73 (rounds to 921) to 934.83 (rounds to 935)
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/18/2013 10:44 AM PST
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spear = 633/1.41
- 237 = 211.9 base

confirm
(212+237)*1.41 = 633.09 (rounds to 633) <---- spear states that

new max = (212+237)+1+343 = 793 *1.41 = 1118.13 (rounds to 1118) <-- your spear stats that

dps = (633.09+1118.13)*.5*1.20= 1050.732 (rounds to 1050.7)
your spear stats that

the top end I think should be 921-935 a small nerf to the 1118

(310+ 343)*1.41 to (320+343)*1.41
920.73 (rounds to 921) to 934.83 (rounds to 935)


if you read what I worte i disagree with (320+343)*1.41. I think it's (320+343+237) :)

Thanks for that, but I wasn't waiting for to know (or knowing ?) the stats of my spear.
I was trying to explain how I think they should to fix the issue :)
Edited by Umbrah#2672 on 1/18/2013 10:52 AM PST
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it's 1283 dps on both live and PTR

calamity
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/calamity
rolls at best
286 min - 381 max
50% ed

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/exorcist - perfect base Exorcist is (50-279)

that means top end should hit (279+381)*1.5 = 990

I have 1000 listed, that is only possible as such
a base exorcist of 48+260 min from calamity = 308
*1.49 = 458.92 (rounded to 459)

assume max = min+1

(309 + 362) * 1.49 = 999.79
rounds up to 1000


Am I missing something here?
As far as I know, your calculation is wrong.
Because if the original damage is 50-200
+100 min = 150-300
+100 max = 50-300
+ min damage is far better than +max.
Proves:
1. See how ruby works
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/artisan/jeweler/recipe/radiant-square-ruby
They changed the words from 16-32 damage to +16 min +16 max in some previous patch. But they are equal.

2. Search on AH with +min damage or +max damage (something like my amulet)
+30 min = 30 average damage
+30 max = 15 average damage


Yeah, I think using the plus to minimum and plus max damage was the problem. It is ridiculously misleading. The plus minimum and maximum have to apply to both the min and max range of the weapon.

Use the old ruby on a 50-100 weapon one attack per second weapon. 75 dps.

If it gave 16-32 (randomly) more damage each hit then the new range from.

[(66-82)-(116-132)]

Average that out and you get 74-124 or 99 dps. Note that 16-32 averages out to 24 damage. Since we are hitting once per second, that is 24 more dps. 75+24 = 99.

You can see from this that for +16/+16 to equal 16-32 the 16/16 has to be applied to both min and max.

You have to remember that min and max are only... for lack of a better word additive things when you are using math to find out dps. Each swing you do only hits once, and it can hit for the min, or the max, or anywhere in between. For a gem to provide both the guarantee of 16 more damage, as well as the possibility to give an extra 16 on the top of that, it must apply if your attack is on the very minimum of your damage range, like the 50 in the example, or at the top of the range as in 100.

Black damage may work differently, but if it does it is a mistake and should not work different.

Bottom line, do not think of +min effecting only the minimum range of your damage, and +plus max only the max range. They just made it as misleading as possible. Think of plus min and max as effecting the total damage of the swing.
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=> (209 + 237 + 343)*1.41 = 1112.49 (almost 1118, again, it's only because I didn't get the worst stats on my min dam :))

this is wrong, not true to the game spear

look at your minimum spear (633)

(x+237)*1.41 = 633
x = 212

(212+237 minimum)*1.41 = 633.09 rounds down to 633 <--- on your spear

your numbers must match perfectly.

so now, with 212

(212+237+343)*1.41 = 1116.72 <-- this is wrong

you maximum is 1118 because
max = (212+237+1+343)*1.41 = 1118.13 <--- rounds to 1118 exactly on your spear
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you maximum is 1118 because
max = (212+237+1+343)*1.41 = 1118.13 <--- rounds to 1118 exactly on your spear


I agree with that :) the base of my spear is 212.

but my maximum (1118) is calculating with min damage of the centurion spear INSTEAD OF the max damage of the centurion spear.
for me max damage (1118) souldn't be equal to (min centurion spear + min affix + max affix)*%damage
but (max centurion spear + min affix + max affix)*%damage

So i think this is the issue :)

did you get what i mean ?
For me if they fix the issue (the subjet of this topic) they will up blackweapon's dps instead of nerfing as most of people are thinking here ?
Edited by Umbrah#2672 on 1/18/2013 11:06 AM PST
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Exactly Umbrah. It's gonna be a buff, not a nerf!

Here's what's happening
MinWeaponDamage = (MinWeaponBase+WeaponMin)*ExtraDamage;
MaxWeaponDamageError = (MinWeaponBase+WeaponMin+WeaponMax)*ExtraDamage;
AvgWeaponDamageError = APS*(MinWeaponDamage+MaxWeaponDamageError)/2;

MaxWeaponDamageCorrected = (MaxWeaponBase+WeaponMin+WeaponMax)*ExtraDamage;
AvgWeaponDamageCorrected = APS*(MinWeaponDamage+MaxWeaponDamageCorrected )/2;

EDIT: Here's an example for Umbrah:
MinWeaponBase=48; MaxWeaponBase= 275; WeaponMin = 260; WeaponMax = 362; ExtraDamage = 1.49; APS = 1.76;

MinWeaponDamage = 459;
MaxWeaponDamageError = 999;
IncorrectDPS = 1,282;
MaxWeaponDamageCorrected = 1,336;
CorrectedDPS = 1,580;

The reason these numbers are off is because your minimum weapon base and maximum weapon base are probably not the base numbers (it's a range of values). I haven't calculated but I bet you'll find a number for the min and max range on an exorcist that fits ur weapon. :)
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 1/18/2013 11:15 AM PST
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Exactly Umbrah. It's gonna be a buff, not a nerf!

Here's what's happening
MinWeaponDamage = (MinWeaponBase+WeaponMin)*ExtraDamage;
MaxWeaponDamageError = (MinWeaponBase+WeaponMin+WeaponMax)*ExtraDamage;
AvgWeaponDamageError = APS*(MinWeaponDamage+MaxWeaponDamageError)/2;

MaxWeaponDamageCorrected = (MaxWeaponBase+WeaponMin+WeaponMax)*ExtraDamage;
AvgWeaponDamageCorrected = APS*(MinWeaponDamage+MaxWeaponDamage2)/2;


Yeah someone understood me !!!
Everybody who thinks it's a nerf think that :
the new MaxWeaponDamageCorrected will be : (MaxWeaponBase+WeaponMax)*ExtraDamage
This is what I would like to correct !

But what we think is :
MaxWeaponDamageCorrected = (MaxWeaponBase+WeaponMin+WeaponMax)*ExtraDamage;
AvgWeaponDamageCorrected = APS*(MinWeaponDamage+MaxWeaponDamage2)/2;

Thank tekkZero :)
your explanation is much more clearly and shorter than mine !
congrats !
Edited by Umbrah#2672 on 1/18/2013 11:14 AM PST
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Exactly Umbrah. It's gonna be a buff, not a nerf!

Here's what's happening
MinWeaponDamage = (MinWeaponBase+WeaponMin)*ExtraDamage;
MaxWeaponDamageError = (MinWeaponBase+WeaponMin+WeaponMax)*ExtraDamage;
AvgWeaponDamageError = APS*(MinWeaponDamage+MaxWeaponDamageError)/2;

MaxWeaponDamageCorrected = (MaxWeaponBase+WeaponMin+WeaponMax)*ExtraDamage;
AvgWeaponDamageCorrected = APS*(MinWeaponDamage+MaxWeaponDamageCorrected )/2;


O.0

so the minimum + max+maximum IS intended

my calamity will hit 1336 top end?
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Yeah, it's a huge buff for EVERYONE because the base maximum damage isn't being used for estimating the maximum range, instead we're using the base minimum damage.
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01/18/2013 11:05 AMPosted by TekkZero
The reason these numbers are off is because your minimum weapon base and maximum weapon base are probably not the base numbers (it's a range of values). I haven't calculated but I bet you'll find a number for the min and max range on an exorcist that fits ur weapon. :)


yeah I knew, I didn't look for knowing the stats of my spear :)
I just gave my spear for example :)
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Yeah everyone's weapon is using some permutation of the base minumum and base maximum weapon damage on their weapon type. For exorcist it's (48-50)–(275-279). The problem is that the base maximum weapon damage is not being used, as this discussion has noted.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 1/18/2013 11:19 AM PST
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01/18/2013 11:17 AMPosted by TekkZero
Yeah, it's a huge buff for EVERYONE because the base maximum damage isn't being used for estimating the maximum range, instead we're using the base minimum damage.


Not exalty :)
Only for people with blackweapon :)
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That's true, more of a minor buff if you aren't using black damage.
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And that is because elemental damage is added after after calculations to min and max base weapon damage calculations? If so black weapons will become even more powerful. Hope so, since all my weapons are black!
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I dont think this will happen, a decent calamity could easily hit 2000+dps with Marquise Ruby and leave all manticore useless ...

Exactly Umbrah. It's gonna be a buff, not a nerf!

Here's what's happening
MinWeaponDamage = (MinWeaponBase+WeaponMin)*ExtraDamage;
MaxWeaponDamageError = (MinWeaponBase+WeaponMin+WeaponMax)*ExtraDamage;
AvgWeaponDamageError = APS*(MinWeaponDamage+MaxWeaponDamageError)/2;

MaxWeaponDamageCorrected = (MaxWeaponBase+WeaponMin+WeaponMax)*ExtraDamage;
AvgWeaponDamageCorrected = APS*(MinWeaponDamage+MaxWeaponDamage2)/2;


Yeah someone understood me !!!
Everybody who thinks it's a nerf think that :
the new MaxWeaponDamageCorrected will be : (MaxWeaponBase+WeaponMax)*ExtraDamage
This is what I would like to correct !

But what we think is :
MaxWeaponDamageCorrected = (MaxWeaponBase+WeaponMin+WeaponMax)*ExtraDamage;
AvgWeaponDamageCorrected = APS*(MinWeaponDamage+MaxWeaponDamage2)/2;

Thank tekkZero :)
your explanation is much more clearly and shorter than mine !
congrats !
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01/18/2013 11:23 AMPosted by tekkazerox
And that is because elemental damage is added after after calculations to min and max base weapon damage calculations? If so black weapons will become even more powerful. Hope so, since all my weapons are black!


I think it's only because elemental weapon add a range not a bonus damage :)
you can see for example :
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/sky-splitter

+(143-286)–(334-667) Holy Damage
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It depends. The error is clearly there that the maximum weapon base damage on a weapon is being substituted for the minumum weapon base damage. EVERYONE will see some kind a buff from this, but it's really people with %Damage that will see the greatest benefit since they are getting a larger maximum range on damage.

If anything the weapon DPS for most weapons will generally increase across the board. Blizzard's been gimping us on damage. Cuz the problem is so fundamental to damage in that the maximum range for all weapons has been gimped. I can't believe this hasn't been fixed already, since it's SOOOOOO basic.
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It's unfair, offensive and rude to players and they will lose players over nerfing ppl's stuff again.
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