Diablo® III

Is BLZ going to nerf black weapons (calamity ... etc)?

I think your calamity's dps will be somewhere from 1236-1259 after nerf

01/18/2013 05:39 PMPosted by Pillz
So how bad am I getting screwed? I literally sold my entire wiz to afford my new calamity. This really sucks. I paid over 800mil.
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I decided to find a low level weapon with min-max that would have a small enough variance to find out if the 'bug' is in fact creating the phantom damage

It is;

hypothesis; under both A\B assumptions the listed top-end is 'wrong', but does that mean the damage in game is wrong?

Sling bow - http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/slingbow
64-67 to 75-81

http://screencast.com/t/O45U3Vis
this one has 19 min and 23 max
the listed damage as you can see is inflated over the best possible 81+23 = 104

it lists 110 for maximum

67+19 = 86 minimum
(86+1)+23 = 110 maximum

I have 429 dex on my naked DH, this is x5.29 damage. Should the phantom damage not exist then I should never be able to get over 104*5.29 = 550

http://screencast.com/t/KbYaTeEiFN
however the screen shows a 580 from a naked arrow
(no skill used)

if the bow is indeed a 110 top end then 110*5.29 = 581.9
so it can reach the 580
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Yeah, I can confirm that the damage is not being calculated right if the weapon's minimum damage range (weapon type's base minimum damage + min damage on the weapon) ever exceeds the weapon's type's base maximum damage. So i-lvl61s and i-lvl62s will be more impacted than i-lvl63 items. On the flip side, you're completely safe or safer if you have lower minimum damage on your weapon. For example, if you're using Calamity (Exorcist weapon type), you don't want to have minimum damage greater than 227 (275 max base damage - 48 min base damage = 227).

I can also state that normally minimum damage is not applied to maximum damage in any way. All it does is increase the minimum range of damage on your weapon. You can test this by buying a weapon with +20 minimum damage and see if it adds it to the weapon's base damage range. It's only added to the minimum range.

So this adds up sadly to a nerf. A lot of people are not gonna be happpy... :(
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@Pillz: Like loadingdye, I'm estimating you're probably gonna be about 1,258.0dps. You're actually not doing too bad compared to the vast majority of people with black weapons.
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still no blue post clarification? I interpret their silence as:

"Yes"

01/18/2013 06:47 PMPosted by TekkZero
@Pillz: Like loadingdye, I'm estimating you're probably gonna be about 1,258.0dps. You're actually not doing too bad compared to the vast majority of people with black weapons.
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Someone else claiming a net buff in my thread about this lol asked em to clarify. If blizz need a ton of people are going to rage and rage hard. This makes all DH manticore deadmans users more than ever. Also will drop huge DPS on skorn users.
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01/18/2013 07:05 PMPosted by METATRON
Someone else claiming a net buff in my thread about this lol asked em to clarify. If blizz need a ton of people are going to rage and rage hard. This makes all DH manticore deadmans users more than ever. Also will drop huge DPS on skorn users.


they didn't demonstrate how,
and by the look of their thread they just like to work backwards to make numbers fit,
not make teh math line up with what is being produced


Let’s look at an Echoing Fury with a tooltip damage range of 622–836
Finally, we round these values to determine the true base damage range:

160–445

that isn't the true base of an echo at all, they just worked backwards to get that and assumed it is right

check the API and notice

http://us.battle.net/api/d3/data/item/ClwIiMDTkQYSBwgEFffaUSUdlL80ih1nWRe1HTbMOzod6hgfWx1Vum3gHee-mnEwCTi-AkAAUBJgxAJqIQoMCAAQjOv24ICAgOAQEhEIABIHCAQVHpaumDAJOABAARju647VBFAAWAI

by his logic he'd assume my calamity is a base 309 max

he'd take teh 1000 listed
/1.49 = 671
subtract 362
= 309

it is NOT 309 , it is 275
that's what 48 min + 227 delta means = 275

the 275 however is surpassed by (48min+260delta) so they add +1 = 309
then the max bonus +362, then the *1.49
and that gets the dead-on-balls 999.79 on my API, which the game rounds up to say 1000.

i verbosely explain all the details
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593743038?page=4#77
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/18/2013 7:22 PM PST
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@Zoid: The problem really isn't actually figuring out what's the matter.

It's what the problem really means specifically in terms of how damage is calculated. A lot of people, including me, had the idea that minimum damage was suppose to be added to maximum damage. The idea being that minimum damage added a minimum, which offset both the minumum and maximum damages. However, that's not true. Minimum damage only increases the base minimum damage on regular weapons that aren't bugged. That's where I was actually dead wrong and where most people are still getting it wrong. There's a monk thread, where a respected monk named Druin was wondering whether there would be a nerf or buff. And his premise for a buff, like mine, is wrongly predicated on a bad assumption that minimum damage should be applied to maximum damage in the normal context. That's just not true and that's why there's gonna be a nerf. And a potentially big one to some players with black weapons that have very high minimum damage.
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I've been reading both threads and I'm so confused on how to figure out what I'm looking at (I am obviously not intelligent enough). I see that my +min damage is above 227 so I'm going to get hit, I just don't understand how hard.

Could any of you possibly give me a hand in figuring out how much I'm going to lose? Thanks.
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I agree with - Dostovel

If I read this correctly, that applies to the affix that is found on amulets and rings,

this is an issue for rings/amulets

my amulet on the AH to check the average damage -
http://screencast.com/t/Ahxeb0TDc
it lists at 77

its API
http://us.battle.net/api/d3/data/item/CkYIv4WkxgMSBwgEFazFRGQdZeq9Cx3V2MQZHZ5VDVsd1ZTO5h37sfU-HddM5K4iCwgBFW1CAwAYAiAKMAk42wNAAFAQYNsDGNiWpsQMUABYAg

"attributes" : +34–92 Damage"

"Damage_Min#Physical"
"min" : 34.0,
"max" : 34.0

"Damage_Delta#Physical"
"min" : 58.0,
"max" : 58.0

"Damage_Bonus_Min#Physical"
"min" : 28.0
"max" : 28.0

listed as 34-92 when in fact it should list as (34+28) - 92
should be 62-92 = 77 average

I think this might the bug they are talking about, and it might not be reflected in actual DPS correctly during game play

offset both the minimum and maximum damages.

@tekk

I think the feature where max = min+1 is perfectly intended now; even though Odd at first glance

if you had a punch that did 1-3 damage and then I gave you a +5 to minimum damage you should at least do 5 damage at all times...
not 5 to 3 (in which case they reverse to = 3-5) you should do 5 minimum and the +1 is just there to account for 0's in code

so the max= min+1 I guess is perfectly reasonable

it does mean that the 'feature' is setup to make ilvl 62 cross bows VERY strong i think,
maybe teh hellion is still top dog, but either case it is sad news for bows, good news for min damage crossbows+1hs
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/18/2013 8:07 PM PST
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@zoid: I perfect agree with your notion that it's intended and I can replicate the bug and the "likely" fix.

Here's what I think they are doing (in pseudo-code, see below). And so far I've correctly replicated every entry I've added, including yours.
--------------------------------------------
MinWpnDamage = (MinWpnBase+MinDamage)*ExtraDamage;
if(XXXXXXX < MinWpnDamage)
--> MaxWpnDamage = PercentDamageBonus*(MaxDamage+MinWpnDamage+1);
else
--> MaxWpnDamage = PercentDamageBonus*(MaxDamage+MaxWpnBase);
end
DisplayedMinWpnDamage = MinWpnDamageRange+MinElementalDamage;
DisplayedMaxWpnDamage = MaxWpnDamageRange+MaxElementalDamage;
AvgWpnDamage= WpnSpeed*(DisplayedMinWpnDamage+DisplayedMaxWpnDamage)/2;
--------------------------------------------

Right now XXXXXXX = MaxWpnBase, when it should be (MaxWpnBase+MaxDamage).

The definitive test for me was taking a low-level socketed weapon with no minimum/maximum damage (8-17 Dmg / 17.5dps). If you add a flawless square ruby (+14Min/+14Max), the damage becomes 22-37 Dmg /41.3dps. It's clear that the minimum is correct (MinWpnDamage=MinWpnBase+MinDamage=8+14=22).

But the maximum damage is not (MaxWpnDamage =MaxDamage+MaxWpnBase=14+17=31, rather than the displayed 37). But it is correct if you assume that you replace the weapon's base maximum damage (MaxWpnDamage =MaxDamage+MinWpnDamage+1 = 14+22+1=37). And that calculation makes no sense, since there's no reason to increase the weapon's base maximum damage, as the min damage and max damage bonus are comparable. BUT this situation would make perfect sense in a situation where I just added +14 minimum damage to the weapon.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 1/18/2013 8:37 PM PST
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I'm pre sure they can't change the dps on the calamities that are already out. They might fix the upcoming ones once the patch is out but if they fix the ones right now it would enrage so many people. I know some people have payed billions of gold or thousands of dollars for their high end calamity. They've been involved in too many lawsuits about gears being changed or getting out upgrades too soon. Its why they announced they won't be having new legendaries until the expan. I've already seen few posts about dmg on calamitys being incorrect but still yet to see a blue post confirming the fix on calamitys that are currently being used.
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It's not just calamities its echoing fury skorns etc etc anything that is high DPS black non elemental.
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http://www.diabloprogress.com/item/21971629

This is a Ilevel 61 weapon - 1250Dps seems to high for me. Try throwing this through your wormhole/dimensional calculators and tell me if its min/max is wrong.
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01/18/2013 10:04 PMPosted by Aphraell
tell me if its min/max is wrong.

it is doing what all black damages are demonstrating as seen in this thread. Don't know for sure if it is wrong/right; my assumption this is intended

it's a
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/skartaran-axe
the minBase roll was 115 Fyi
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Bump for more info
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will this affect our damage output?

thats the main question, watever it shows on the tooltip doesnt matter lol
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Sling bow - http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/slingbow
64-67 to 75-81

http://screencast.com/t/O45U3Vis
this one has 19 min and 23 max
the listed damage as you can see is inflated over the best possible 81+23 = 104

it lists 110 for maximum

67+19 = 86 minimum
(86+1)+23 = 110 maximum


I told you your calculation is wrong
min weapon damage final= min weapon damage + min
max weapon damage final= max weapon damage + min +max

01/18/2013 06:18 PMPosted by zoid
81+23 = 104

This is not correct
The maximum it can get is 81+23+19 = 123.
This bow just rolled 67-68 without +min +max (worst max weapon damage it can roll when have 67 min)

An easy couter example to your theory:
http://s13.postimage.org/llrooa6vb/Untitled.png
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/splinter-shot
Its damage: 44 - 155
+20min
+19max
155 is not equal to 44+20+1
The base weapon damage is 24-116
with +20 min:
44-136
with +19max:
44-155


+x min
+y max
Is equal to
x - (x+y) black damage
Edited by Aurex#1978 on 1/19/2013 7:18 AM PST
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Can somebody do the maths for my echo fury please? thanks in advance :)

http://eu.battle.net/d3/de/profile/iThink-2215/hero/18615010
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I told you your calculation is wrong

First of all you haven't be following the conversation well - the post you are quoting was just a test of the listed 110 to empirically demonstrate the weapon performed a hit within the 109-110 range (and it did with a 580 I screened)

second of all.. you are mistaken

min weapon damage final= min weapon damage + min
max weapon damage final= max weapon damage + min +max

you are not pulling the data of how the game actually works.

here is what exists in the item API data
"Damage_Weapon_Min#Physical"
"Damage_Weapon_Delta#Physical"

this is the weapons base damage min to (min+delta)


"Damage_Weapon_Bonus_Min#Physical"
"Damage_Weapon_Bonus_Delta#Physical"

this is how +min +max is created
+Minimum = Bonus_Min
+Maximum = Bonus_Delta

I'll break it down with your example

The base weapon damage is 24-116
no, here is why

Weapon_min = 24
Weapon_Delta = 112 <--- this is only visible in the items API data

this makes a weapon base of
(Weapon_Min) to (Weapon_Min + Weapon_Delta)
24 to 136
compared - http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/splinter-shot
(24-25) to (135-137)

your rare has rolled
Bonus_Min 20
Bonus_Delta 19

Weapon_Min(24) + Bonus_Min(20) = 44 <----that is what is listed
Weapon_Min(24) + Weapon_Delta(112) + Bonus_Delta(19) = 155 <--- this is what is listed

the issue we see is when (Bonus_Min) > (Weapon_Delta) that doesn't happen on your example so there is no 'issue'

In my example with the 110 Crossbow I am demonstrating that Bonus_Min > Weapon_Delta here look for yourself
http://us.battle.net/api/d3/data/item/CjwI6Mml4gcSBwgEFcZXygod05TO5h0zjVNgHbTx7Bod8GPNcSILCAAVzv4BABgSIBowCTisBUAAUAxgrgUYjN_SrAFQAFgC

"Damage_Weapon_Delta#Physical" : {
"min" : 12.0,
"max" : 12.0

"Damage_Weapon_Bonus_Min#Physical" : {
"min" : 19.0,
"max" : 19.0

the bonus is 19 which is > 12 so the 12 is basically thrown out; they calculate the listed top end as (Weapon_Min + Bonus_Min + 1) + Bonus_Delta

go ahead and check the API link and grab the numbers
67+19+ 1 +23 = 110 <--- that is what is listed

I wanted to prove empirically that indeed is being used to create damage in-game; it is
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/19/2013 11:52 AM PST
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