Diablo® III

Is BLZ going to nerf black weapons (calamity ... etc)?

Bump for clarity, in other news I saw a post of a guy with a 1320 DPS calamity and a red marquise made it jump to almost 2000 DPS lol
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 1/19/2013 11:59 AM PST
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01/19/2013 11:58 AMPosted by METATRON
Bump for clarity, in other news I saw a post of a guy with a 1320 DPS calamity and a red marquise made it jump to almost 2000 DPS lol


hmm yah was it around 726-1430 damage?

a +286 Bonus_Min roll would jump (48 Weapon_base) + 150ruby +286Bonus) * 1.5 = 726 min
then ((48+150+286+1)+360+150)*1.5 = 1429

(726+1429)*.5*1.78 = 1917
like that ?
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/19/2013 12:11 PM PST
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Bump for clarity, in other news I saw a post of a guy with a 1320 DPS calamity and a red marquise made it jump to almost 2000 DPS lol


hmm yah was it around 726-1430 damage?

a +286 Bonus_Min roll would jump (48 Weapon_base) + 150ruby +286Bonus) * 1.5 = 726 min
then ((48+150+286+1)+360+150)*1.5 = 1429

(726+1429)*.5*1.78 = 1917
like that ?


He was a 1337 DPS Calamity normally 700-1480

heres the image after the ruby marquise

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/606/screenshot077q.jpg

bumped him up to 1936

I am going to farm for the gem plan in PTR and test this out myself and see if i have similar results.
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 1/19/2013 12:23 PM PST
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For those that are naysayers, just take a look at this picture of gear and you can see firsthand the problem: http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/9493/buglp.jpg. I'm inserting rubies into a low-level weapon to trigger the bug. We can see very clearly the minimum damage is added correctly in the second picture (+8Min/+8Max damage), but not in the third picture (+10Min/+12Max damage). And this is because the minimum damage bonus in the third picture (10) exceeds the difference of the base maximum damage and minimum damage (17-8=9).
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01/19/2013 12:23 PMPosted by TekkZero
For those that are naysayers, just take a look at this picture of gear and you can see firsthand the problem: http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/9493/buglp.jpg. I'm inserting rubies into a low-level weapon to trigger the bug. We can see very clearly the minimum damage is added correctly in the second picture (+8Min/+8Max damage), but not in the third picture (+10Min/+12Max damage). And this is because the minimum damage bonus in the third picture (10) exceeds the difference of the base maximum damage and minimum damage (17-8=9).


See some people are thinking this might just be intentional now though and the real issue at hand is with +min jewelry
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hmm yah was it around 726-1430 damage?

a +286 Bonus_Min roll would jump (48 Weapon_base) + 150ruby +286Bonus) * 1.5 = 726 min
then ((48+150+286+1)+360+150)*1.5 = 1429

(726+1429)*.5*1.78 = 1917
like that ?


He was a 1337 DPS Calamity normally 700-1480

heres the image after the ruby marquise

http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/606/screenshot077q.jpg

bumped him up to 1936

I am going to farm for the gem plan in PTR and test this out myself and see if i have similar results.


HA you know what that means?
rubies also benefit from his 50%ed

they are inserted into (Bonus_Min) and (Bonus_Delta) and then multiplied by ed%

(48+269+150)*1.5 = 700.5 (<---strange than it rounds down to 700 not up to 701)

((48+269+1+150)+369+150)*1.5 = 1480.5 (<--- again strange that it rounds off the .5 not up to 1401)

(700.5+1480.5)*.5*1.776aps = 1936.728 DPS <-----exactly as we see

heh, with a good 50% roll rubies are pretty DAMN powerful (for single weild)
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/19/2013 12:35 PM PST
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@METATRON: That's a LOAD of crap in my opinion, because we can predict this abberant bonus and the bonus of weapons completely by knowing the nature of this bug. We know EXACTLY what is going wrong and when. Sadly, the naysayers just have their head in the sand. :(
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 1/19/2013 12:30 PM PST
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Tekk I agree though with meta, I think the check

IF Bonus_Min > Weapon_Delta
then Max = ( (Weapon_min+Bonus_Min+1) + Bonus_Delta)* ed%

is absolutely intended

it also means the calamity with a ruby is Insane DPS, not even a manticore with 2 of em will hit 2000 dps; by my calculation the best manticore (perfect 50%, 2 socks, 11% ias and perfect 286 - 667 posion)

(1355.5 +1831 )*.5*1.221 = 1945.35 DPS at best <----a perfect calamity will beat that with 1 ruby

* (of course you wouldn't want to put 2 rubies in the manti anyway)
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/19/2013 12:42 PM PST
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01/19/2013 12:29 PMPosted by TekkZero
@METATRON: That's a LOAD of crap in my opinion, because we can predict this abberant bonus and the bonus of weapons completely by knowing the nature of this bug. We know EXACTLY what is going wrong and when. Sadly, the naysayers just have their head in the sand. :(


See i thought this also but its starting to show up as intentional while +min jewelry is actually bugged in the way it affects the +max. It is actually nerfed in its current state in how it calculates. but honestly who knows we wont know until a Blue comes around to clarify.
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Tekk I agree though with meta, I think the check

IF Bonus_Min > Weapon_Delta
then Max = ( (Weapon_min+Bonus_Min+1) + Bonus_Delta)* ed%

is absolutely intended

it also means the calamity with a ruby is Insane DPS, not even a manticore with 2 of em will hit 2000 dps; by my calculation the best manticore (perfect 50%, 2 socks, 11% ias and perfect 286 - 667 posion)

(1355.5 +1831 )*.5*1.221 = 1945.35 DPS at best <----a perfect calamity will beat that with 1 ruby

* (of course you wouldn't want to put 2 rubies in the manti anyway)


Yup! This might just be blizzards answer to buffing 1handers for DH and fixing fast attack speed dual wielding 1handers like Calamity and Dannetta's.
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 1/19/2013 12:50 PM PST
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@Zoid, but how do we know that's really intended? Any sane-person looking at that can see it's an improper scaling. And btw I agree right now the trigger point is currently Bonus_Min > Weapon_Delta. But that's wrong. That code should only logically execute if (Bonus_Min-Bonus_Delta) > Weapon_Delta. If it executes at any other time it's giving out a damage bonus when it shouldn't. Now whether this is the actual bug they are referring to, I dunno. But this is still a MAJOR exploit and it explains ever darn empirical observation that I've seen (including gems as well as basic items).

As a programmer, a bug like this is completely reasonable to exist. But it's existence in the code doesn't mean it's right. It's a subtle logic bug that very likely one of their programmers missed.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 1/19/2013 1:11 PM PST
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01/19/2013 12:52 PMPosted by TekkZero
@Zoid, but how do we know that's really intended?

well 1.) this is how Min damage worked in D2,
and it was 'exploitable' as you put it for low level characters

2.) I think it is intended with this thought experiment

If I had a stick that did 2-3 damage and then I got a +2 minimum on it I would expect to always do at minimum 2+2 = 4

the fact that a '3' is still in there is overwhelmed,
the whole damage range is extended to new Bonus_Min+1, IFF (Bonus_Min) > (Weapon_Delta)

it just seems 'practical' to implement even if it seems odd mathematically in relation to other weapons with various min-max ranges and some benefit more than others

3.)
if it was not intended they would need to track Max separately and never account for Bonus_Min > Weapon_Max

here is a bad scenario
Weapon_Min 4
Weapon_Delta 6

(that's a 4-10 weapon)

Bonus_Min 60
Bonus_Delta 20


minDamage = 64
maxDamage = 30

well we can't have 64 - 30 as the listed damage
we could have 64-65 but then the +20 max is being thrown out :(

we could have
minDamage = Weapon_Min(4) + Bonus_Min(60) = 64
MaxDamage = Weapon_Min(4) + Weapon_Delta(6) + Bonus_Min(60) + Bonus_Delta(20) = 90

and a weapon that does 64-90
BUT 64-90 means Bonus_Min always 'double dip'
it therefore is NOT minimum; it would function as "average" since it added to both ranges

thus they have

IF Bonus_Min > Weapon_Delta
then

minDamage = Weapon_Min(4) + Bonus_Min(60) = 64
maxDamage = Weapon_Min(4) + Bonus_Min(60) +1 + Bonus_Delta(20) = 85

@tEKK Lets continue this tech talk about could/should in the PTR forum
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593743038?page=5#97
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/19/2013 1:25 PM PST
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I think Zoids hit the nail in the head, it just might be the way it is but the +min jewelry was what was wrong. At least i hope so for the sake of all those black weapon users lol
Edited by METATRON#1945 on 1/19/2013 1:17 PM PST
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If I understand the issue correctly, a potential "fix" could be to drastically reduce the +min on the new marquis gem and up the +max to compensate. While not really addressing the underlying code issue it would address the current balance issue and not make existing non-socketd calamity's essentially brimstones.
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I like most of the players in D3 am always looking to increase my dps while maintaining decent EHP, but tbh this game has alrdy been nerfed to the ground, so with that said I'm actually hoping for a dmg nerf even tho i use a black dmg wep.

Why? Because as I said this game is alrdy to easy. Imagine if they buffed dmg as some of u have predicted that would mean just about everyone would be farming mp8-10 with ease. I don't want the game to get easier I want it to get harder. I farm mp10 for fun, yes i do die I'm not perfect I take a lot of unnecessary risks to see how far i can push the limits of my so called skill and gear and sometimes that results in deaths, i like that tho, it gives whats left of this game some sort of a challenge.

If blizz buffs black wep dmg thats just gonna take a lot of the risk and fun out of the game. So with that said I'm hoping for a straight across the board nerf for everyone with black dmg weps.

Stop making the game easier and give us more of a challenge.
Edited by heyguyslol#1302 on 1/19/2013 1:43 PM PST
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The issue is it's fundamentally wrong though. This error wreaks of someone making a coding mistake (specifically a logical error). I mean Blizzard can choose to keep it, but it's not correct mathematically in handling the minimum damage bonuses. The code that's giving the abberant damage bonus has a very specific function. It's just unfortunately executing when it shouldn't. In your second example zoid, that's very likely the reason that this code even exists: to prevent a weapon's minimum damage ever exceeding it's maximum damage.
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 1/19/2013 2:24 PM PST
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Oh god, just bought my skorn. I'll probably have to vendor it after the patch.
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I like most of the players in D3 am always looking to increase my dps while maintaining decent EHP, but tbh this game has alrdy been nerfed to the ground, so with that said I'm actually hoping for a dmg nerf even tho i use a black dmg wep.

Why? Because as I said this game is alrdy to easy. Imagine if they buffed dmg as some of u have predicted that would mean just about everyone would be farming mp8-10 with ease. I don't want the game to get easier I want it to get harder. I farm mp10 for fun, yes i do die I'm not perfect I take a lot of unnecessary risks to see how far i can push the limits of my so called skill and gear and sometimes that results in deaths, i like that tho, it gives whats left of this game some sort of a challenge.

If blizz buffs black wep dmg thats just gonna take a lot of the risk and fun out of the game. So with that said I'm hoping for a straight across the board nerf for everyone with black dmg weps.

Stop making the game easier and give us more of a challenge.


your method of increasing game difficulty is extremely horrible and lacks creativity. It's no different from 10 times, 20 times health like what they are doing now. It just makes an encounter longer. And may I ask why only black weapons?

Anyway that is offtopic. i am guessing the main purpose of this thread is for players to be updated on whether the weapons they paid for are going to be changed due to blizz crappy (or unqiue) coding.
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one thing that would worry me greatly if i owned a black weapon (note owned a butchers sickle managed to sell it a profit last night) is that on dprog all the high dps weapons are for the most part black weapons (only looked at 1h weapons) which hints at black weapons for some reason having a huge dmg boost likely by the error that tekk mentioned, now bliz can nerf black weapons, or buff elemental weapons to level the playing field or do nothing.
The issue is what do u think blizzard will do, i assume nerf so thats y i sold my sickle. And most likely we wont see a blue post for some time because they are trying to find a solution that doesnt piss off the majority of the playerbase.
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