Diablo® III

ANY UPDATES ON FRENZY VS BASH?

BTW Castablanca, are you still selling your gear? Cuz I frickin' need your amulet.
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So let me get this straight, you want to switch your WH for an IK belt, but don't want to switch your Tals for IK because you want to keep the AS...

You realize you would be losing the exact same amount of IAS on the belt as you would be on the armor. Also you more than likely would stand to lose a lot more dps switching the belt, vs gaining a lot of dps by using IK armor then you get the 2 IK AR bonus.

Are you wanting to do the belt for the LS?

Agreed.
But, in the end, I decided to remain Witching Hour.
See my profile now. Stacked AS.
Btw, my old Weapon Throw Witching Hour is available.
205 Strength
34 Vit
9% AS
48% Cd
-5 Weapon Throw
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Castablanca, I would say the answer is complicated and my previous answer was not good enough for anyone. Both skills are fantastic and have pros and cons.

For instance, while Bash->Punish gives more damage and that 4% DPS is not trivial, it is also not trivial that Frenzy->Maniac reduces the casting cost of Frenzy which means more HOTA-Smash attacks. Frenzy will also provide more fury in the long run since at max speed, it will provoke battle fury more. Secondly, Frenzy has a verbal queue that shows how much time you need before you have to toggle the skill in between HOTA attacks while you have to continually count with Bash. The final caveat is that Maniac has a proc coefficient of .75 while Punish has 1.00. With the increased attack speed from Maniac you are getting a more steady stream of fury from Battle Rage, but because it only has .75 proc you are at the mercy of the RNG. Punish will be more consistent and you can count on it provoking with your Battle Rage at a 1:1 ratio.

What you have is this:

Frenzy->Maniac
20% Damage at Max Effect
75% IAS to Frenzy
0.75 Proc-Coefficient
Verbal Queue

Bash->Punish
24% Damage at Max Effect
Chance to knockback (both good and bad)
1.00 Proc-Coefficient
No Verbal Queue (must open inventory to see if you still have its effect)

Only you can decide which is better. I honestly like Frenzy better myself due to the steady stream of fury. It helps maintain Perma-Wraith much easier since I can get back to spending and generating fury with HOTA.
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01/17/2013 10:25 AMPosted by VeePow
BTW Castablanca, are you still selling your gear? Cuz I frickin' need your amulet.

I've decided to stick with Barb.
But, if you make me an offer that I can't refuse, I'd still be open to parting ways.
2B minimum
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Frenzy->Maniac
20% Damage at Max Effect
75% IAS to Frenzy
0.75 Proc-Coefficient
Verbal Queue

Bash->Punish
24% Damage at Max Effect
Chance to knockback (both good and bad)
1.00 Proc-Coefficient
No Verbal Queue (must open inventory to see if you still have its effect)

Agreed.
That 75% IAS on top of my 3.08 base APS (3.5+ with perma-Wrath) makes everything a blur.

01/17/2013 10:27 AMPosted by tekkazerox
Only you can decide which is better. I honestly like Frenzy better myself due to the steady stream of fury. It helps maintain Perma-Wraith much easier since I can get back to spending and generating fury with HOTA.


One thing I should mention is travel time between mobs.
Using bash to hit environmental destructibles can reliably get me enough fury to cast Sprint Marathon. Frenzy takes a lot more to get that pocket-change fury.
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next step IAS ef
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Looking at your stats, Castablanca I would think that Frenzy is better with you. You are attacking with HOTA so fast and no HOTA reduction that anything that can get you back to HOTA is a good thing. I would give it a try over Bash.
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One thing I should mention is travel time between mobs.
Using bash to hit environmental destructibles can reliably get me enough fury to cast Sprint Marathon. Frenzy takes a lot more to get that pocket-change fury.

That is another consideration. I will say you aren't giving HOTA its full due if you don't have most of your fury by the time the mobs are dead though. The question is how long it takes you to kill things to get to another mob. For me Frenzy is superior since I don't have your DPS and transit time is faster than actually killing mobs at higher mps.

At lower MPS, I would definitely say Bash is better because enemies die too fast and you don't get the full benefit of Frenzy (it takes 5 strikes to get to full effect vs 3 strikes for bash).
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01/17/2013 10:33 AMPosted by tekkazerox
Looking at your stats, Castablanca I would think that Frenzy is better with you. You are attacking with HOTA so fast and no HOTA reduction that anything that can get you back to HOTA is a good thing. I would give it a try over Bash.

yes yes and yes.
I'm also bidding on a Legacy Zuni boot (6%poison+6%AS+74strength+58resistance)
Which means, if I win it, my Ice Climbers will be available.
Edited by Castablanca#1545 on 1/17/2013 10:40 AM PST
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Oh wow! I am jealous on that front! Your position is typically not normal since you have godly gear and it certainly is obscuring the completely optimal skill. For instance, while it takes 5 attacks to get optimal with Frenzy, you can achieve the wind up faster than most people can and yoke its benefits. What I don't know is what MP level you typically play and how long it takes to kill mobs. Those are missing pieces of the puzzle that you will have to answer for yourself on which one is better.
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Another way to actually find which one is better for you in sustained fights is to test your effective DPS against say GHOM in a high MP between bash and frenzy. Most CM/WW wizards do this all the time to find which skills are better in those situations. You can do this too:

Effective DPS = Ghom's Life / (Ghom Kill Time)

It will allow you to see if Frenzy allowing you to quickly cast and get back to HOTA is really worth it.
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I tested against Ghom in MP 6 with my crappy IK Rend belt that I had so neither Bash nor Frenzy were favored. What I found was:

Frenzy 1: 30 seconds
Frenzy 2: 31 seconds
Frenzy 3: 28 seconds
Bash 1: 29 seconds
Bash 2: 29 seconds
Bash 3: 30 seconds

They are pretty similar on clear times. I would need to do more to determine which is truly better. I suspect Frenzy will always have the most potential but suffers from the most variance. Bash was much quicker at dropping Ghom in the first few seconds, while it took about 5-7 seconds to get the Frenzy engine going.
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01/17/2013 10:45 AMPosted by tekkazerox
What I don't know is what MP level you typically play and how long it takes to kill mobs. Those are missing pieces of the puzzle that you will have to answer for yourself on which one is better.

I farm MP10. (I used to be a throw barb with -10 fury cost reduction, WT+Slam hybrid).
Because of my pitiful EHP, I'm prefer to be a ranged/mid-ranged barb.
However, I just swapped to a Witching Hour with Resists, and replaced my SOJ with a resists trifecta ring. If I were to switch from Ice to Legacy Zuni's, I would be losing both damage, hp, and resists. It would purely be for stacking AS for the sake of AS, with absolutely no in-game benefit besides the fact that I can swing ridiculously fast.
Edited by Castablanca#1545 on 1/17/2013 11:38 AM PST
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I tested against Ghom in MP 6 with my crappy IK Rend belt that I had so neither Bash nor Frenzy were favored. What I found was:

Frenzy 1: 30 seconds
Frenzy 2: 31 seconds
Frenzy 3: 28 seconds
Bash 1: 29 seconds
Bash 2: 29 seconds
Bash 3: 30 seconds

They are pretty similar on clear times. I would need to do more to determine which is truly better. I suspect Frenzy will always have the most potential but suffers from the most variance. Bash was much quicker at dropping Ghom in the first few seconds, while it took about 5-7 seconds to get the Frenzy engine going.

Would you mind comaring that to "no fury generator at all"? In case you can keep up HotA on it's own, otherwise this test doesn't make much sense.
I'm asking because I did a few tests of my own and the effective damage boost of Frenzy was around 5% compared to HotA alone. So I'm wondering if it's just me doing it wrong or if the total impact of the damage buff really is that low.
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01/17/2013 12:23 PMPosted by apo
5%
only 5%? that can't be right.
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^
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Would you mind comaring that to "no fury generator at all"? In case you can keep up HotA on it's own, otherwise this test doesn't make much sense.
I'm asking because I did a few tests of my own and the effective damage boost of Frenzy was around 5% compared to HotA alone. So I'm wondering if it's just me doing it wrong or if the total impact of the damage buff really is that low.

I am not sure what you are getting at. You can't do HOTA without a fury generator. Or are you referring to using Run Like the Wind as your means to fury generate? If so, the test is meaningless since it won't reflect Run Like the Wind very well since Ghom is a big boy and in practice it is much harder to land as many tornadoes on him. You would just be rehashing the age of old question of estimating Run Like the Wind.
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