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Many DHs have fallen into the mindset: "The best geared DHs are wearing manticores, surely they've done all the analysis and it's the best DPS, so I should buy one!"
So in this thread, I want to compare MY two bows, and make some conclusions. The conclusions are not only based on DPS, but also on cost efficiency, and survivability (as we all know by now, very relevant to PvP).
I am doing this to double check for myself, since I've been torn over which bow to use, but to also give others a reference of the difference.
1. Manticore (1217.4 DPS, 776-1218, 1.22 attacks per second)
- COST = 430MIL (bought this 2 WEEKS ago)
+ 247 - 581 poison damage
+ 200 DEX
+ 82% CD (+200%) = 282% CD
2. Rare bow (1434.4 DPS, 1025-1459, 1.15 attacks per second)
- COST = 290MIL (bought this 4 MONTHS ago or so, when Mantis didn't exist)
+ 270 minimum damage (physical property)
+ 290 maximum damage (physical property)
+ 75 strength
+ 100 VIT
+ 98% CD (+100%) = 198% CD
Intuitively, many people would think the manticore is better. But is it really? Let's compare DPS. Note: This depends a lot on your gear, so here is my gear:
Most relevant: 2471 DEX, 53% crit chance, 167% non-weapon crit damage
--- NO ELEMENTAL DAMAGE GEAR (e.g. +6% Cold) DPS ---
Rare XBow: 134,879.88
OK, it seems that a manticore does better DPS. But does it do better damage?
QUICK SIDE NOTES (Keep this in mind):
1. Popular PVP Build: Strafe (Lower attack speed = better = less hatred spending)
2. Popular PVP Build: Impale (Higher damage crits = better = better burst damage)
3. Popular PVP Build: LFB (Higher damage crits = better = better burst damage)
4. All above builds don't rely on attack speed
So if attack speed is really not as relevant, what is the normalized average damage for our bows (i.e. Average damage for 1 attack speed per second)?
MANTICORE: DPS/APS = 1217.4 / 1.22 = 997.87
RARE XBOW: DPS/APS = 1434.4 / 1.15 = 1247.30
Difference: 249.43 Damage
Logical question 1: The difference in crit damage was 84%. Is 84% crit damage worth 249 base weapon damage? If yes, the manti does more damage. If no, the rare xbow does more damage. The short answer is no (so much work to type this out, but think about this intuitively)
But wait... DONT FORGET: Manticores are half POISON damage.
Relevant question: We all know +X% Property damage applies only to physical bow damage. (e.g. +6% Cold Damage). Does that mean a rare XBow is better with a SOJ?? Let's compare:
--- ELEMENTAL DAMAGE GEAR (e.g. +6% Cold SOJ) DPS ---
Rare XBow: 121,092.08
The difference dropped significantly. Without the SOJ, it was 7,673.1, but now the difference is suddenly only 3,857.3. This is where the SOJ applies only to +Physical damage of your bow comes into play, so the manticore's poison damage is excluded. I imagine this effect is even greater if you use +8% Inna's belt (too lazy to try, witching hour/rare belt op)
By using an SOJ, not only do we do more damage (with both bows) vs. elites, bosses, and soon in PvP, but we also narrow the gap between manticores and rare high dps xbows. So to conclude, the tradeoffs of using my manticore vs. my rare XBow:
+ 3,857.3 DPS (inflated by attack speed of 1.22 vs 1.15, the manti shoots faster)
+ More attack-speed based
+ 75 armor
+ 5740 HP
+ More bursty-damage based (favors LFB, Impale, Strafe builds)
TL;DR: The trade-offs are only +3,857.3 DPS (Manti) vs. +75 armor, +5740 HP (Rare).
Conclusion: I dunno about you guys, but for me, based on this, it's either get a 1280 + 100CD + 2 socket + 200 DEX Manticore or just buy a nice 1400 CD+socket VIT crossbow for ~100M. Calamity and dual wielding are a whole different story though.
Edited by MysticaL#1298 on 1/19/2013 1:52 PM PST
I've been saying this for ages now, i'm glad someone finally agrees with me.
All of these threads asking, "How do I gear up my freshy DH?" everybody is always saying, "Get a manti, it's the best." while I'm saying, "get a high black damage rare bow with high CD, a socket, and a stat like Dex or vit.
For higher MP farming, however, I will have to give it to the Calamity or 1H Setups unless you've got an insane damage manti with 1250+DPS and high CD with 2 socks.
The problem is that OS +Dex +CD 1300DPS+ rare bows aren't widely available. A lot of people would ditch manticore in a heartbeat if they could get quality rare bows at a reasonable price, but as soon as one turns up it's immediately bought out or overpriced. Right now, manticores are just the most easily obtainable, and most competitively priced.
does the red gem get to play?
I didn't get to test the red gems in the PTR yet, but we can still do some theory crafting
I think that +150 min damage and +150 max damage isn't enough to compare to 110% CD. Even with this manti vs. rare, it was 84% CD vs. 249 average damage and the average damage barely wins, imagine 110% CD.
+150 min and +150 max is just +150 average damage. I think there is no WAY that +150 average damage can compete with 110% CD. I guess that it would need to be roughly something like +300 average damage for a reasonable trade, but I haven't tested it/plugged it into DPS calcs yet
Edit: ^ Proven wrong by zoid, read his reply for details below :|
Same here but I gave up lol. I think it's especially important now though because of dueling and the upcoming 1.1 pvp patch *cough in 8 months*
The problem is that OS +Dex +CD 1300DPS+ rare bows aren't widely available. A lot of people would ditch manticore in a heartbeat if they could get quality rare bows at a reasonable price
yes that's true, but the rare xbow that I compared didn't even have DEX, instead it had good VIT, and there are some CD + socket with even 150VIT. The DEX one would be much more relevant for ubers and pve stuff though
Everyone who is pretty serious about PvP right now is trading DEX gems for VIT gems. I figure it'd be pretty appropriate to do the same with a weapon too, but I guess there's a point where you just have to stop losing dex like that lol
Edited by MysticaL#1298 on 1/19/2013 6:59 PM PST
A lot of people would ditch manticore in a heartbeat if they could get quality rare bows at a reasonable price, but as soon as one turns up it's immediately bought out or overpriced. Right now, manticores are just the most easily obtainable, and most competitively priced.
This isn't true.
I was forced to GIVE AWAY 1327 DPS 1.1APS Rare Crossbow with 80% CD and an open socket to a friend who needed it because it had been sitting for WEEKS at 40M and not budging. I would post to trade and retarded DH's would respond,
"AMG NOT 2 SOCKET MANTI LOL VENDOR"
Are you seriously telling me that this bow isn't worth 40M? No. It is worth FAR more than 40M and my friend will have one hell of a gem especially for PVP because nobody wanted a rare crossbow.
Edited by Oscar#1292 on 1/19/2013 2:11 PM PST
red gem is bad in 1 soc and 2soc bows :(
there might be some situations where it is better, but for most people who stack cc/cd the red gem is bad compared to 110% cd
I bought a 1434 cd+soc bow yesterday. does as much damage as my 2soc manti, at 1/3rd the price, but slower attack speed. not sure yet which I'm gonna keep..gonna wait till patch day
edit: good xbows are still 200m+ for rares.. buyer beware, use a spreadsheet when shopping. sometimes they look alike but a bit less CD here, a bit more dex there, etc. makes a huge difference
Edited by Veritech#1882 on 1/19/2013 2:15 PM PST
If you're planting and shooting in PVP you're doing something wrong unless you're barraging a hallway with Hungering arrows...
Edited by Oscar#1292 on 1/19/2013 4:09 PM PST
40M manticores are better then that.
It's the 1400-1500+ rare xbows with crit/socket that people want, and are incredibly hard to find on the AH since pretty much nobody picks up hellion bows anymore.
well actually it can be as much as 225-450 (with a 50% weapon that also has a good deal of Bonus_Min)
make sure you are accounting for your calculation accurately
the ruby functions like this
which results in 150-300 damage <---- if you don't believe this check here http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7593742992?page=7#126
both the Bonus_min and Bonus_Delta get pushed into the Weapon, which is multiplied by weapon ED% so a 50% manticore will multiply Ruby as well as Hellion damage together to be much bigger
consider - the ruby turns into 225 - 225 for a manticore (but that is not all :0 **)
Manticore as example
1.) all manticores are Hellions with
this means Min 413 max 498 (it's preset to that range)
you have 28% ed and 247-581 poison
2.) minDamage = Weapon_Min(413)1.28 + 247poison = 775.64 (rounds up to 776)
3.) maxDamage = (Weapon_Min(413)+WeaponDelta(85))*1.28 + 581poison = 1218.44 (rounds down to 1218)
^ underline values is what your manti demonstrates in the image
4. adding ruby does this to the min/max
minDamage = (Weapon_Min(413)+Bonus_min(150))1.28 + 247poison = 967.64 (rounds up to 968)
^ gain of 192 (which is 150*1.28)
next the maxDamage,
**there is a slight 'feature' here that pushes Weapon_Delta off, compensates with Bonus_min to inflate the max = min+1
so the tracked max will inflate to 714
then 714 *1.28 + 581 poison = 1494.92 (rounds up to 1495)
the effect is the Ruby added 276.48! (much more than the assumed 150*1.28 = 192)
so the 150-150 turned into 192 - 276.48 a tad more than 225-225
this could be most beneficial if you run a good deal of Crit_damage% on your gear elsewhere (depends on gear obviously)
again check out what happens to a calamity on PTR do to these "features"
you'll notice that the damage grows significantly because a calamity also comes with its own Bonus_Min and Bonus_Delta (+minimum and +maximum as opposed to elemental on a manticore)
in the case of a +286 +360 calamity with 50%ed and 150-150 ruby
maxDamage = (48+286+150+150+360)*1.5 = 1492
If you don't believe me check out my confirmation in game Live just now
a heavy crossbow with 15-17 and a 19-19 ruby (final damage is listed 34-54)
now here is the API data for it for you to confirm yourself as well
(^ ill have to eventually throw out that item i think which may kill the link so i will include the info as well)
here are the important parts
the 15 is the min, the +2 means its 15-17
the ruby is 19-19
the result is
15+19 = 34 as seen on the item
15+19+19+1 = 54 as seen on the item
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/23/2013 7:05 PM PST
you're gonna hate this but actually I just eyeballed it based on my DH cycling through so many different weapons lol
I did follow what you calc'd though, but I never really considered the %damage when looking at gems/bows, I should probably be more careful about this
Thanks for posting. I was thinking the same when I bought my rare xbow. Mainly I wanted a black dmg xbow over a manti because I planned on using a cold SoJ for pvp. I'm glad to see I wasn't way off base. I got my xbow for 80m back in Oct. I know the base CD is a bit low but it will have to do. Now to find a 6% cold SoJ with -5 hatred cost to cluster arrow....
dont forget about max = min+1 feature
it is what causes the "black" hellions to be 1600+ dps
it can cause a ruby to make much more than you expect
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/19/2013 7:18 PM PST
Did you ever figure out what the *bug* in the patch for black weapon damage is?
there has been no confirmation however My assumption is that is inteded (they did it for a reason) and imo logical.. or to be fair "less wrong" than other ways of doing it
the bug is imo rings/amulets not being account for properly as We describe in this post
I want to note @Mystical and really others worried about knowing how Damage works in the game
Understanding +Minimum +Maximum damage is very dependent on doing the math IDENTICALLY to the game (from the database standpoint and not from what you just see listed on the items in-game those are only proxies of the real data)
future posts about damage from me will contain precise technical details; nomenclature will be succinct and all numbers are dead-on-balls
if you wish to understand the power of what the future 150-150 ruby has with regard to a calamity other black damage sources, rings/amulets (future supposed change to rings/amulets)
and other 'black' 1600+dps rare hellions you will want to familiarize yourself with the details so they are clear sooner, rather than make a mistake/misconception and have it cost you
the above wall post - http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7708261356?page=1#11
explains everything you need to know - if you need/want to understand I suggest you read it carefully and follow along with all the info it can give to you
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/19/2013 7:32 PM PST
Don't even need to be hung up on the socket if the bow is good enough. Mine is far superior to 90% of the manticores out there every time i compare. And look at all the money you can save on not having to buy an emerald to fill up that socket.
267 min damage
340 max damage
Picked up for the low low price of 35m on the AH. Ideal for pairing with an Inna's belt. My last bow I sold was essentially the same but with 99cd and only 1450 dps and I let it sit on the ah for a week at 20m, finally sold for something like 16m. Just ridiculous. It was way better than soooo many dual socket manticores out there. Can't even give the damn things away.
include your 46%ed [that is significant for black weapons]
just an FYI to tell you the power of the socket if you could have put in a 150-150 ruby the dps would have become 1900 dps
Edited by zoid#1554 on 1/19/2013 7:53 PM PST
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