Diablo® III

3aps100% CDvs3.33vs2.73 aps 200% CD+21% ET/CC

Please Discuss!
End my frustration my fellow CM/WW's, need your advice !

This will not utilize time stretch, completely unbuffed aps and assumes 60%+ CC (58% unbuffed) and utilizes MW Electrify.

2.73 aps also is minus 7% elite damage reduction and 130 INT (INT gets eclipsed by CD, but 13 less AR). Also loses massive EHP from no mempo but might reconsider that as I go into final gearing because I believe with enough ET CC @ 2.73 10 apoc will work well. No wormhole obviously. But for now it would be a storm crow.

3 aps is with socketed for 100% CD

3.33 is APS chants with all AS slots and possibly end gaming with 5-6% ET CC (skull grasp) but not banking on it. I've felt 3.33 before and wasn't really too impressed, but that was when I had 50% CC, not 60 + ET CC
Edited by MasterJay#1651 on 1/25/2013 11:35 AM PST
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I think 200%CD+21%cc is best, but only if you can manage to pickup more than 10APoC, else your proposed 3.00aps setup is probably better. 10 APoC is a just game killer that it's almost non-functional, unless you're always procing Deep Freeze. You'd just barely break even per twister without Deep Freeze, let alone pay for everything else. :( On the plus side, you only need 15APoC to make that build work well (so a high damage, low APoC Chant's Force would do the trick for you). This is your expected efficiency:

LoH per second per twister:
2.73aps - 75% of maximum
3.00aps - 83.33% of maximum
3.33aps - 93.75% of maximum
*Formula: LoH Efficiency per second = 100*[WW Tick Rate]/6*Proc Coefficient

Crits Proced for CM per second per twister (assuming 58%cc as baseline):
2.73aps+21%cc: 0.5925
3.00aps: 0.4833
3.33aps: 0.5437
*Formula: Crits Proced per sec = [WW Tick Rate]/6*Proc Coefficient*CC

AP regenerated per second per twister (assuming 19APoC):
2.73aps+21%cc: 11.2575 (5.9250 with 10APoC or 8.8875 with 15APoC)
3.00aps: 9.1833
3.33aps: 10.3312
*Formula: Ap regeneration per second = Crits Proced Per Sec*APoC
*Important Note: You need 5.84 here to break even on casting energy twister (6s*5.84 = ~35 AP regenerated over the full 6s of a twister). The problem is you need to start generating AP much faster than 5.84 to start netting yourself tornadoes for full wind up. From my qualitative experience with SNS, this number needs to be greater than 6.5 at the bare minimum or else you'll constantly get out of Arcane Power messages (even at full windup). Shandlar's recommendation is that 7.5 is good if you're not using Teleport (Wormhole).
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 1/25/2013 11:40 AM PST
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^math that would make shandler proud ?
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I think 200%CD+21%cc is best, but only if you can manage to pickup more than 10APoC, else your proposed 3.00aps setup is probably better. 10 APoC is a just game killer that it's almost non-functional, unless you're always procing Deep Freeze. You'd just barely break even per twister without Deep Freeze, let alone pay for everything else. :( On the plus side, you only need 15APoC to make that build work well (so a high damage, low APoC Chant's Force would do the trick for you). This is your expected efficiency:

LoH per second per twister:
2.73aps - 75% of maximum
3.00aps - 83.33% of maximum
3.33aps - 93.75% of maximum
*Formula: LoH Efficiency per second = 100*[WW Tick Rate]/6*Proc Coefficient

Crits Proced for CM per second per twister (assuming 58%cc as baseline):
2.73aps+21%cc: 0.5925
3.00aps: 0.4833
3.33aps: 0.5437
*Formula: Crits Proced per sec = [WW Tick Rate]/6*Proc Coefficient*CC

AP regenerated per second per twister (assuming 19APoC):
2.73aps+21%cc: 11.2575 (5.9250 with 10APoC or 8.8875 with 15APoC)
3.00aps: 9.1833
3.33aps: 10.3312
*Formula: Ap regeneration per second = Crits Proced Per Sec*APoC
*Important Note: You need 5.84 here to break even on casting energy twister (6s*5.84 = ~35 AP regenerated over the full 6s of a twister). The problem is you need to start generating AP much faster than 5.84 to start netting yourself tornadoes for full wind up. From my qualitative experience with SNS, this number needs to be greater than 6.5 at the bare minimum or else you'll constantly get out of Arcane Power messages (even at full windup). Shandlar's recommendation is that 7.5 is good if you're not using Teleport (Wormhole).


Tekk thanks a ton but I must ask did you do the calculation for apoc based on 58% CC? Cuz that would be incorrect and let's just say a maximum goal for the 21% 2.73 was 64% CC unbuffed so 67% CC after scoundrel, would that bump it to 7.1 + for full wind up?

I do not want to be @ 11 + that's just a lame waste w/o wormholing lol. 15 apoc (5 from source) opens up cheaper damage maxing.
Edited by MasterJay#1651 on 1/25/2013 11:53 AM PST
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@MasterJay: You're entirely welcome! :D For both the crits proced and AP regeneration, I did add the extra +21%cc you mentioned for energy twister; however, I only used 58%cc as a base. If you go for 64%cc unbuffed for the 2.73aps setup, we'd get:
*Crits Proced: .6375
*AP regeneration: 6.3750
Now that's quite a bit better, but you might be still AP starved. To give you a rough intuition what to expect, that'd be the exact equivalent of someone running 17APoC and 50%cc. Rough, but doable.

Your dilemna would be easily solved with any APoC Chant's Force, as average damage would be your only major consideration. If you wanted the same damage (280 Avg Damage), you're probably talking 350million. If you're willing to sacrifice some of that damage and dip down to 220-230 Avg Damage, you'd be probably talking 60-125mil.

If I were in your shoes, I'd definitely do the best I could to take the 2.73aps route and settle for a Chant's Force with APoC. The efficiency of CM procs you'd have would be simply insane and to my knowledge no one's done it. :D
Edited by TekkZero#1963 on 1/25/2013 12:12 PM PST
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@MasterJay: You're entirely welcome! :D For both the crits proced and AP regeneration, I did add the extra +21%cc you mentioned for energy twister; however, I only used 58%cc as a base. If you go for 64%cc unbuffed for the 2.73aps setup, we'd get:
*Crits Proced: .6375
*AP regeneration: 6.3750
Now that's quite a bit better, but you might be still AP starved. To give you a rough intuition what to expect, that'd be the exact equivalent of someone running 17APoC and 50%cc. Rough, but doable.

Your dilemna would be easily solved with any APoC Chant's Force, as average damage would be your only major consideration. If you wanted the same damage (280 Avg Damage), you're probably talking 350million. If you're willing to sacrifice some of that damage and dip down to 220-230 Avg Damage, you'd be probably talking 60-125mil.

If I were in your shoes, I'd definitely do the best I could to take the 2.73aps route and settle for a Chant's Force with APoC. The efficiency of CM procs you'd have would be simply insane and to my knowledge no one's done it. :D


Yah for sure that was my goal, I'd have to go that route anyway cuz I do not have ET CC skull grasp. Just the 9.5CC / 7% ET CC mara's and the 8% slorak's so I'd have to wait it out @ 15 apoc and 15% ET CC / 60% CC unbuffed till I got the Skull Grasp. Then I'd try to go for the Mempo switch and see what 10 apoc would do.

S8's alt and ChuckTaylor have high ET / CC % skull grasps (Chuck's is STR though). Thanks for all your math help Tekk!
Edited by MasterJay#1651 on 1/25/2013 2:29 PM PST
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Did you see this cc Skull Grasp the other day ( http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7709862012 )?
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01/25/2013 12:35 PMPosted by TekkZero
Did you see this cc Skull Grasp the other day ( http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7709862012 )?


Yah haven't seen my name thrown around a thread like that in awhile hah..yep love that stuff that's why option #1 was pretty much gonna do just had to figure out how to merge there.
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I'd like to hear someone @ 3.33 though state their opinion vs 3 with 100% more CD since we pretty much can conclude no one has 20%+ ET CC (that posts anyway)
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ask bdf? i believe he tried out 3.33
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I'm nowhere near adequacy levels for math permutations and can only speak from ingame experience. As Aph puts it "feel". For 3.33, even if you have high ET CC, I think 10 APOC is going to be really stretching it. You will need alot of casting discipline and accuracy to make it somewhat viable. I honestly wouldn't advocate it. 1 tele or fast movement could really mess with your arcane pool.

The issue with 3.33 is always equipment. Assuming you manage to get that APS and a respectable dps that you are happy with, you're going to want a decent CC as well as some mitigation. Some may view that if you're that fast and can almost perma-freeze, mitigation can be compromised. I have a differing opinion; I like to be able to take 1 big shot whether via SK/Mag or usual MP10 molten explosion yada yada. Juggling all of the above is a head-banging exercise against a concrete wall. Of course, if a few deaths now and then is ok on a personal preference basis, I think 3.33 is excellent for the control.

But without breaking a bank, I would say go for 3. It's easier to juggle DPS, APOC and mitigation.
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