Diablo® III

I've spend few hours on pvp with my monk (lately) with this build

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/calculator/monk#adgfTh!XUc!abYaac

What i saw is that, if player are at the same gear level, the 2 classes that have more difficulties are (in inverse order) Monk and Barb.

After playing a bit, i discovered (at least for monks), that being melee is not the real problem: resources are!

We start with half the spirit and don't regenerate it, that means that after 2 abilities (since all our offensive abilities cost a lot) we are empty, and then we are just like goatman.
Once we are "empty spirited" we are no more able to come close to the opponent to refull our spirit(fury), and even if we are, we already took a lot of damage and the opponent doesn't stay still there. Using primary in PVP is extremely hard!

So here's why we (barbs especially) suck: we don't have resources to spend! While the other 3 classes, if they are short on resources, can just flee away and avoid the opponent until they are full again.

We don't have that option: we can only lose!

Moreover, if we want to have a bit of spirti (fury) we have to change at least a passive, losing either dps or ehps.

A possible solution could be:
1) start full spirit/fury and
2) have some resource "croucible" like the health one or
3) have resources potions spawn casually in the eniroment or
4) have 2/3 immortal greedy goblin continuously spawning and disappearing(without the possibility to stop them) in the map, and with a few hits the would drop a resource potion or health potion

This is just a few ideas.
If you saw that the problem is different from this one or there are other problem related to this, feel free to comment! ;)
'Cmon, we're on PTR, we can make some changes before going live!

Learn to stack regen. Thanks.

Every class has items that help their resources. In order for Demon Hunters to be effective, they need tons of Discipline - which takes out from other potential rolls. So I think it's pretty damn fair. Just stack spirit regen and stop being a scrub and complaining :). I've seen plenty of successful monks who have tons of spirit regen and roll pretty well in PvP.

You should be grateful that Blizzard never released any items that increase regeneration of discipline minus legacy Natalya's - which doesn't even roll super high stats.

So I'm not sure why you're complaining. Many demon hunters/ranged classes stack up some sort of regeneration on their gear. Why can't melees do the same?

PvP =/= PvE, therefore gearing for one should not equal gearing for the other. :)

Barb does not suck. Get better.

01/19/2013 11:08 AMPosted by Excalibur

Barb does not suck. Get better.

This.

I think the monks and barbs are so used to not needing resource items that they think something is wrong when they do. Same as barbs getting one shotted in pvp because they use the same glass cannon life steal builds as in pve. The other classes have already stacked resource stats/skills because it's necessary in pve for them.

It could still be that barbarian skills give too little fury or monk items regenerate too low amounts, but I think people need to try regearing before complaining.

I think the monks and barbs are so used to not needing resource items that they think something is wrong when they do. Same as barbs getting one shotted in pvp because they use the same glass cannon life steal builds as in pve. The other classes have already stacked resource stats/skills because it's necessary in pve for them.

It could still be that barbarian skills give too little fury or monk items regenerate too low amounts, but I think people need to try regearing before complaining.

Worded exactly the way I feel about all the whiners.

@OP
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/prod-2134/hero/23085039

just use good build.

dont mind the shield, I have a different shield.

150k unbuffed DPS, 1.6 mil EHP, 25% block, 6.3k armor, 700 allres, 2.5k life/sec, 63k HP and 9 spirit/sec

Cookie cutter Monks and Barbs are getting slaughtered in PVP, I give you that.

Thanks for the constructive input, (in order) DH, WZ, DH, DH (i'll leave prod out since he plays a DH but have a well dressed monk too. Well, Origin and Josef was quite constructive too)

@prod
i did not say monks or barbs are weak, neither that we were nerfed, or that we need buf. I said that we(like barbs) have no way to regenerate our resources other than gear!

All the other classes naturally regenerate their mana, and equip is a (almost needed at inferno) additional supply.

I agree for sure that the monk can be really strong AND have a good spirit regen, but your monk is definitely an end game monk.
Is pvp only suited for end game players? I played 200h and never found a good drop..
I'm not saying that an end game character killed me, so i must be buffed. I repeatedly got killed by players with a good gear, and this is good!

The problem is, for example, that when i killed a DH and a WIZ yesterday (sometimes they killed me, sometimes i killed them, it was pretty balanced), for 30 sec i needed to run and hide in the map in order to regain the minimum spirit for dash + 7SS + eventually something.

I don't image wizard, dh and WD, even with gear that costs like mine, having to hide for 30 secs because they can't cast anything.

The concept that you seams not to understand is

Class --- What it need to do to recover mana by the basic design

Wiz -----> wait
WD -----> wait
DH -----> wait
Barb ----> hit *
Monk ----> hit *

*= the opponent is far away, it runs, and don't need to come close to hit

All the regeneration can be increased with gear.

In fact i suggested to put something in the field to punch, not to buff the monk. The monk is ok, it's just that what should give us spirit is punching the enemy (NOTE: our spirit generator generate 6 spirit/hit. Passive and gear add 1-2 spirit/sec. It's quite clear that the design of the class, like barb, is that it needs to hit in order to make anything)

Is this so stupid? If so, i'm wondering why i don't find monks and barbs any more in public game pvp.. Maybe it's just RND

Please, avoid posting "You suck" (yes, if you played 1kh, i probably look to you like one who suck), or "It works, l2p"

Ps: shen long and inna set, our class specific set equip/weapons, add 0.33 sprit/sec. It means it takes 3 m 47 s to full recover spirit with only our class specific bonus

PPS: in case you didn't see my monk, here it is
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/MakersF-2902/hero/8548363
For pvp i change to hand with 781 DPS 589 LoH, 3 LL, 80 CD + socket
and a shield with 1255 armor 300 dex 72 vit 39 poison res 72 all res 7 C%
Not high end gear, not !@#$ty one

OP is not wrong about Monks, my main is a Monk...my biggest issue with PvP so far hasn't been "being one shoted - that's part of the game everyone should accept it)...but it's running around waiting on spirit regen.

My solution which weakens my character as far as Damage and sustain is to use ITEMS that boost Spirit Regen...PvP isn't balanced and that's OK...but now blizzard has further crippled Monks that don't run Spirit Regen or use Spirit Regen skills like passive slots (which we need badly for other ones) or a Mantra (that could be used elsewhere like Evasion or Conviction).

ya I agree with OP,
Monks and barb need to respawn with full spirit/fury

or all classes need to repawn out with 0 mana.

This is simple pvp balance

I also had to regear for PVP... I didnt have +spirit regen on my gear, I didnt use passive combined with mantra to gain spirit, but its a necessity.

without regen you just dont do dmg. Life is a lot better with 9 spirit / sec. And dmg wise you gain more DPS then Overawe because then you can only use primary attacks @ 110% weapon dmg, with regen you can also use spirit spending at 300% dmg and way higher. That beats the hell out of the dmg buff (opponent debuff) of Overawe.

Sure your screen DPS will drop, but time to not look at that for a change.

get Inna helm with 2+ spirit / sec, use Matra of healing with the spirit rune and use the passive to gain 2 more spirt a sec, this totals you already on 7+ spirit a sec, now you can either get 1 weapon with spirit regen or a SOJ, or both. You will have a LOT of spirit to spend.

Not all your skills and passives are good for PVP, not all are good for PVE. Find something that works. Think a bit outside the box.

[quote="77082071374"]
but they love lobbying before the nerf/buff congress .. easier to cry than to rethink their cookie cutter

I linked my build in the first post, maybe you missed that there isn't SW?

Btw, you are probably missing the fact that
1) while on all your off-hands you can find mana regeneration/arcane power per critic/ hatred-discipline regeneration, we can't have it in our off-hand

2)many of your pieces have it for sure! We often have to pick: we can't have for example a The Fist of Az'Turrasq with more than one between CD, socket, LL.

Here you are (taking the first few characters for each class from the threads "rate the XXX above you" or similar). All the counts are made with a CC of 40% and an ApS of 1.8

Mage: Primary attack free
10 base regen. Average regen found on gear: 10% of full arcane power per crit.
40% * 1.8 = 0.72 crit hit/s --> 0.072 additional AP per second per gear piece --> 6 sec for full regen with one piece. 3,2 seconds with 3 pieces.
Many usable pieces comes with it guaranteed

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/chantodos-force
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/chantodos-will
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/storm-crow
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/tal-rashas-unwavering-glare
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/the-oculus
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/tal-rashas-allegiance (set bonus)

Average spell cost= 25% of full arcane power

Which Doctor: Primary attack consumes 0,46% of full mana
20 base regen. Average regen found on gear: 1.7% of full mana per second per piece.
25 sec for full regen with one piece. 13 sec with 3 pieces.
Some usable pieces comes with it guaranteed

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/thing-of-the-deep
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/visage-of-giyua
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/zunimassas-string-of-skulls (plus set bonus)

Average ability cost = 8,6% of full mana

i must admit WD wear all almost the same things, there's really little diversity in the end game gear.. Or at least it's what i saw looking into profiles.

DH: primary attack generate 2,4% of full hatred
hatred
4 base regen. Average regen found on gear: 0.96% of full hatred per second.
24 sec for to full regen with one piece. 16 sec with 3 pieces.
Average ability cost: 25% of full hatred (but i think the primary is highly used for offence)

Pieces with it guaranteed(i don't know if they are usable, since all the DH uses monticore + dead man's leg. Man, you really have little gear diversity! Design team have definitely something to look at!)

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/dead-mans-legacy
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/calamity
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/windforce (is this usable?)

discipline
1 base regen. Average regen found on gear : 0.
30 sec for full regen.
Average ability cost : 30%

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/natalyas-soul-hIrkW (only item that has disc regen?)

Monk: primary attack generate 4% of full spirit
0 base regen. Average regen found on gear: (i really didn't found any one using it) 1.13% of full spirit per second (i usually look for gear with regen, and usually i find values around 1.7)
88 sec for to full regen with one piece. 29 sec with 3 pieces.
Average ability cost: 25% of full spirit

Pieces that comes with it guaranteed:

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/innas-favor (set bonus, ridiculous. 0.33 )
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/madstone
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/shenlongs-relentless-assault(set bonus, ridiculous. 0.33)
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/item/the-fist-of-azturrasq

I really had nothing to do tonight :)

Btw i hope this can show how the classes are dependant on the regeneration.
You can see how the big part of monk regeneration come from the primary ability, that we can not use if we don't have spirit, since the foes run away (and they recharge while running away).

I didn't do it for the barb too, but since the fury vanishes with time, i think it is even worst for him.

What do you think?

I also had to regear for PVP... I didnt have +spirit regen on my gear, I didnt use passive combined with mantra to gain spirit, but its a necessity.

without regen you just dont do dmg. Life is a lot better with 9 spirit / sec. And dmg wise you gain more DPS then Overawe because then you can only use primary attacks @ 110% weapon dmg, with regen you can also use spirit spending at 300% dmg and way higher. That beats the hell out of the dmg buff (opponent debuff) of Overawe.

Sure your screen DPS will drop, but time to not look at that for a change.

get Inna helm with 2+ spirit / sec, use Matra of healing with the spirit rune and use the passive to gain 2 more spirt a sec, this totals you already on 7+ spirit a sec, now you can either get 1 weapon with spirit regen or a SOJ, or both. You will have a LOT of spirit to spend.

Not all your skills and passives are good for PVP, not all are good for PVE. Find something that works. Think a bit outside the box.

Totally true! I already use an elm with regen, i wanted to try your weapon, but i wasn't able to find one on PTR to try! If you want to add me on PTR, would you like to let me try?